...We should create a Corporation.

[Prak]

Also here's the deal. If Frank and K say no then why the fuck bother. I mean they need lead design jobs and cronies, but I've never once heard them suggest it. Further, I'm sure they're smart enough to think it. I'm pretty sure if they wanted to lead a project with us doing some of the work that might work but...

Because we're more than just Frank and K, and we're not their dedicated cocksuckers, as the rest of the gaming population aware of the Den seem to think. Because at least some of the people here are fully able to write decent gaming stuff. And last but not least, because they really don't give a shit about contributing to the mass gaming market. They just improve their own games and think "well, I'm typing it up already, and I'm vastly overly opinionated about this game, so why the fuck not." Frank's off in a second world country training to be a doctor. K is in Law School. Sure, they have some valuable input in gaming, but they don't give a shit about anything beyond occasionally posting stuff here. A gaming company should be comprised of people who do give a damn about gaming.

How many of you would actually want to invest in something created here at the den? Is anyone qualified here to run a buisness?
Its a huge amount of stuff.

Well, I'd want to. And there are far less qualified people already running businesses. This is like you saying none of us are qualified to write a successful novel while Stephanie Meyer is ridiculously wealthy. We're qualified to run businesses in that we actually occasionally think about what's going on, when there are people out there running businesses with less awareness and critical thinking skills than pot high coma patients.

If I collected the most prolific posters from TDG I'd be worried about a fist fight breaking out. The people here have no particular consensus about what a game should look like and no interest in doing what they're told.

That's why you have project managers. When was the last time you agreed with a coworker? When was the last time you wanted to punch a coworker in the face?

[Novembermike]

That's why you have project managers. When was the last time you agreed with a coworker? When was the last time you wanted to punch a coworker in the face?

And the reason you don't do it is because you like eating.

This honestly seems like a bad idea. If you want to make your own community product then set up the basics, like what the Random Number Generator is, how much health things have and whether it's point buy or level based and then let people drop stuff in. Moderate it for balance but let people do things at their own pace and in a subject they enjoy.

[Gods_Trick]

Eh, try it. Everyone flails about it being impossible, but yeah, its definitely impossible is everyone is whining and bitching. Worse that happens is you lose some time and money. You know what, people do that all the time. This might be interesting.

I'm not a pollyanna type, but social media proves that interesting things can happen online. You're going to need some very interesting 'fixes' for the problems of starting a company of a forum. They're not exaggerating the difficulties by much, just concluding too abruptly.

Frank and K are brilliant. Period. But you certainly don't need that level of intellectual ability to make a good game. You need a moderated ego, a extendable idea of 'fun' and honest playtesting. Has to be said, as fascinating as his/their writings and rants are, Frank at least is a hugely opinionated interlocutor that approaches argument like a deathmatch. If you're hoping the company will feature an outgrowth of the Tomes, or to recruit the digirati of the Den, ouch man, thats a thorny path.

I haven't I can't think of what a Psych/ Drama major could really contribute, but I'll show willingness: Can proofread at the very least.

[Prak]

Yeah, if you couldn't tell, I'm for this. Hell, to test the waters we could even just do up a book collaboratively, publish it through one of "just make an account, we'll print it" sites, and give everyone who worked on it a share of the profits, assuming any is had. If it works out, then we can continue, with some of the profit going towards capital for a corporation. It can be done. Sure, we may not put out the best product. Sure, tempers will flare, and someone may wind up punching someone else in the face, but the beauty of "bunch of normal people start up a venture" deals is that a fist fight can be handled a lot more simply than punching your co worker at walmart.

I can write material, I can write prose, I can maybe do some art. Nothing will be "super amazing awesome" but I can do it, at least better than some other published people.

[icyshadowlord]

If I could invest more time in this (I am already involved in a similar project concerning a Fighting Game and such), perhaps I could also do my part in writing. As I have said, my self-esteem is telling me not to take part in this, even though I write stories as a hobby (no, I am NOT going to link the site I operate in. I'd hang myself if that happens). And I have also probably mentioned my willingness to take part in any possible play-testing that might occur.

[Midnight_v]

and we're not their dedicated cocksuckers

Maybe not dedicated... but sure, Prak... sure.
Here's what you quoted:

How many of you would actually want to invest in something created here at the den? Is anyone qualified here to run a buisness?
Its a huge amount of stuff.

Here's what you said:

Well, I'd want to. And there are far less qualified people already running businesses. This is like you saying none of us are qualified to write a successful novel while Stephanie Meyer is ridiculously wealthy

What the fuck are you talking about? Do you even know? How the fuck did you even draw said connection? I asked a goddamn question. That question had jack shit to do with whatever ass-pull writer you care to invoke. However, it has everything to do with things like... Who's ever actually applied for a buisness loan. Does anyone own a buisness currently? Anyone ever been to buisness school?
You're venting maybe because so many people are saying this is a shit fuck idea. I asked a question about actually financial interests, essentially who can afford/would be willing to contribute, arguing actually at that point from a "Pro" make a corporation tac.
Sorry if this post makes me a dick but damn dude... it actually "IS" a huge amount of stuff. I mean just info gathering for how to start a buisness if none of us knows how is a part of that. . .
What I think about is "garage bands" and "indie" some of those garage bands make epic and beautiful music but it doesn't make the radio, it's easier now with internetz etc... but it still a huge undertaking.
I think its feasible, because someone's done it before.

[the_taken]

This is one coincidence after another. I have just created the rule system for a Trading Card Game. As far as I can tell, the game rules are solid and balanced, though there's still a couple of rules that could be added. But what I need is a team of minions I can whip into making content. I have "one sort of interested" amateur artist for card art, but I know I'm going to need a ton more as well, and likely some professionals.

Then I need all those things mentioned before. A lawyer, an accountant, a business plan, investors, managers...

If one of you is capable of running a business and hiring me some employees, I could have this out in a couple of months. I'll even go to you to work.

[MfA]

e20 might have poisoned the well, but it is impressive they raised a decent amount of cash. I don't think the Den has a big enough community for the same approach unfortunately.

[MfA]

Honestly, I suggest dropping the business aspect of it and instead work on building up a community that can actually work within the structure that you're proposing. Strictly enforced roles, regulations, and processes all devoted towards the concept of creating quality game content.

Wiki's are a relatively good method to create content, but a lousy method to create publishable content.

Something like DocbookWiki would be better in this regard.

Ideally there would also be XML schemas for entering data for spells, classes, magic items etc etc and XSL transformations to automatically create synchronized class text&table, class spell lists, magic item lists, etc etc to avoid all the mismatches RPG books so often have.

a little work on automation saves a lot of work on editing.

[Orion]

I can believe that one or more Den posters could start up an RPG publisher, hire a mix of talent from the den and elsewhere, and put out commercial products. That doesn't seem crazy to me, any crazier than getting into this industry already is. Companies are born from the friendships formed at gatherings of people interested in the subject, and that's us.

What would be crazy would be to expect that it would be anything like the Den. As mentioned above, there are two big problems with community Den projects. One is that the big posters--Kaelik, Koumei, Frank, K, heck I'll include myself because I feel important from inside my head--mostly hate each other and don't agree on anything. The other is that most Denners are not actually good enough writers to produce commercial content, and many of them are in denial of this fact. (Which category I belong in is left as an exercise to the reader). So any attempt to solicit "the den" generally for help would end in tears.

The way this would actually work is that someone with motivation and organizational skills would covertly hire up the Denners they respected and could work with, and appoint some managers. They probably wouldn't have any kind of open auditions. For instance, if I were running it I would not hire Kaelik, even though he *is* one of our better/faster designers, because I can't work with him. Nor would I put the drafts on the Den, for various reasons.

So ultimately what would actually happen is a long period of silence, followed by Hicks or me or whomever posting "hey guys, we wrote a book! buy it!" Which could be cool if the book was good, but wouldn't really fulfill the longing we all feel for the Den itself to produce something.

[tzor]

The other is that most Denners are not actually good enough writers to produce commercial content, and many of them are in denial of this fact.

I can only plead ignorance. I've never done it; therefore I'm pretty certain that any first, second or third attempt would, by definition, suck. Never the less, I've been shocked when people have turned to me on other things I have written (on other topics) and say how great it was, so I reserve the right to be my own worst critic.

[TheFlatline]

Yeah, if you couldn't tell, I'm for this. Hell, to test the waters we could even just do up a book collaboratively, publish it through one of "just make an account, we'll print it" sites, and give everyone who worked on it a share of the profits, assuming any is had.

In the absence of any legal structure or partnership documents that everyone has signed, this effort defaults back to a partnership, with each author owning an equal part of the partnership. Which state the partnership is in is a clusterfuck if it's not spelled out in advance, and you couldn't actually *sell* the finished book unless you sold it under every author's name collectively as the business name.

Which means you need a DBA (Doing Business As) document. Which is easy to do, takes a week or two, and doesn't cost much (you have to list a DBA in the local paper), but at that point, you have an honest-to-god business, and you have to go register with city, state, and federal agencies that you exist, send them a copy of your partnership agreement, and you get to start paying taxes, especially locally.

Or, your other option is to say "fuck the law, I'm a poster on The Den, and I'm above all that shit".

Then... if you manage to violate any copyright in your little print-on-demand project, each and every author in the project might suddenly get hit with a lawsuit, because partnerships have no legal protection. Or even worse, one person gets sued, and that partner has to then sue every other partner to spread the joy, because that single partner will be on the hook for 100% of the liability in that case. Not only that, but if you lose, your personal assets are at risk, because corporations and LLCs are what provide personal liability protection for the owners.

Seriously people. Go to Barnes & Noble, or Borders, or Waldenbooks, and pick up "starting a business for dummies" or something like that and fucking read it before you start up with the conjecture. I've started businesses up before and it takes a lot of effort to do right and cover your ass. Doing it half-assed is a great way to get yourself sued into oblivion.

I managed to start a partnership on 300 bucks, and nearly got sued into oblivion in my first few months of existence because a previous employer didn't like that I was working for myself. Thankfully I had a good lawyer on tap and had invested in insurance, so I weathered that, and incorporated a short time later. So I have some first hand experience of setting up an actual business/corporation.

You *have* to do your homework, and nobody is even beginning to look into what it takes to start a company, which tells me nobody is really serious about this.

[DragonChild]

Don't be silly, Flatline. They're serious about this, just like efforts on completing the other tome books, the pokemon rpg, their work on TNE, etc.

[icyshadowlord]

Now I am too tired to even tell if that was sarcasm or not.

[Prak]

All I'm saying is that it can be done. I know at least six people who started three businesses between them, and I know people that are fucking incompetent that are in charge of businesses as we speak. Profitable businesses. I haven't gotten off my ass to start this because I'm a full time student who is trying to work full time so he can finally pay his cell phone bill, then get a car. I don't know anyone else's excuse.

[TheFlatline]

Too bad that TTRPGs aren't an inherently profitable business to be in generally.

It's doable, but if you do it wrong, it can cost you. A lot. Which means it's worth doing smart if you're going to do it.

[Kaelik]

Now I am too tired to even tell if that was sarcasm or not.

If you had been around for all the complete failures of projects to go anywhere, you would appreciate why DC is hilarious.

And why I mocked Hicks in the thread that spawned this one for thinking they would actually get anything done.

[Orion]

Flatline, thanks for the advice (really, I mean that), but why are you assuming that hicks and prak were just going to run out and start printing books without doing any research. Like, I appreciate the need for a voice of reason, but it's needlessly rude to jump in shouting "nobody here has done even basic research, therefore they aren't serious, therefore everyone is going to die."

Relax. If I were going to do this, I wouldn't start by buying up business books, I would start by finding out whether anyone was even interested in the idea, maybe by starting a forum thread. Then I would solicit help from knowledgable people, including other forumgoers, on what I needed to learn and what books to read. I mean, I don't think this company is actually going to happen, but as far as I can tell, everything that's happened so far is going in the right direction--including your advice on the difficulties.

[Maj]

You know, anyone who's really interested in doing something like this should see if they have a local branch of the SBA (Small Business Association) near them and check for free seminars.

I know the SBA is partnering with the local Economic Development Council here in Olympia and offers free seminars to potential entrepreneurs each month. I'm not going to be available to attend the seminar in April, but Ess and I are planning to attend the one in May. I heard about this particular one at the public library, but I know the Chamber of Commerce and the SBA do frequent seminars together, too.

Random other thought: Someone with a little more drive may also put up posters and/or connect social media-wise with people who are unemployed. You may be able to find people with similar hobby preferences who have the time since they're not doing that much else. Before we moved from unemployed to self-employed, I know that Ess did a lot of those sorts of writing projects.

[TheFlatline]

You know, anyone who's really interested in doing something like this should see if they have a local branch of the SBA (Small Business Association) near them and check for free seminars.

I know the SBA is partnering with the local Economic Development Council here in Olympia and offers free seminars to potential entrepreneurs each month. I'm not going to be available to attend the seminar in April, but Ess and I are planning to attend the one in May. I heard about this particular one at the public library, but I know the Chamber of Commerce and the SBA do frequent seminars together, too.

Random other thought: Someone with a little more drive may also put up posters and/or connect social media-wise with people who are unemployed. You may be able to find people with similar hobby preferences who have the time since they're not doing that much else. Before we moved from unemployed to self-employed, I know that Ess did a lot of those sorts of writing projects.

I was going to suggest contacting the SBA as well, but I held off because you have an incredibly vague idea and no specifics behind it. I mean, to be perfectly honest, you don't even know *what* you'd produce beyond "quality gaming products". Remember, none of these reworks, house rules, or anything like that is marketable unless it's using the 3rd edition open source licensing.

I'm not trying to say "you're going to die if you try this", I'm saying "open your eyes, because you can't claim ignorance if shit hits the fan".

For example: If you google, I dunno... "starting a corporation in California" you get 54 million hits. Among the top 5 is the documentation from the state of California showing you what actually needs to happen to start a corporation, the tax rates, and all that funky good stuff:

http://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/misc/1060.pdf

This needs to be looked at in conjunction with the discussion of if it should be even tried. This is pertinent, important information. Not something you just glance at after you have people who have signed on.

But I won't pee on anyone's parade any more. By all means, if you think this is something worth doing, put your money up where your mouth is and make the jump. I actually wish you luck.

[Gods_Trick]

I own a small business, and Flatline's advise is spot on. In this type of scenario PARTNERSHIP is often spelled CLUSTERFUCK. Which you try to preclude by hammering out a watertight agreement.

Which state or country are you in Hicks? Makes a big difference in the legal aspects.

[Midnight_v]

I own a small business, and Flatline's advise is spot on. In this type of scenario PARTNERSHIP is often spelled CLUSTERFUCK. Which you try to preclude by hammering out a watertight agreement.

Which state or country are you in Hicks? Makes a big difference in the legal aspects.

...and really thats what I was curious to know. Has any of us even opened a small buisness. There's a fellow I work with who is currently in the process of putting together request for a small buisness owner loan, says the banks require about what one would think before they hand you 100k more or less. I'm not suggesting the idea is impossible once you get all the particulars together, but it's make it much easier if we had someone who already knew all the steps. Plus, I'm awed by all the negativity.

[Prak]

Why do people keep talking as if those who express favour of the idea are idiots? It's not like we're going to run off and do this without looking at all the various things you guys have mentioned. Thanks for the advice, but stop talking like we're complete incompetents.... my business major didn't pan out, but I learned a few things...

[MfA]

Why not start with something small?

A Tome integrated SRD ebook? Of course you'd still need to do all the business stuff and hammer out an agreement with Frank&K.

[Prak]

Not really... Frank and K have expressed that their stuff is completely open source, and you don't even have to credit them. I actually would credit them, but that's because I hope to have some kind of career as a writer, and don't want some "you printed someone's work without accreditation!" thing to bite me in the ass...