So what IS going on with 4E these days.

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:27 pm

sabs wrote:NWN 1 was awesome because of all the cool persistant world games that came out of it. I don't think I ever actually played the actual story.

I was referring exclusively to the single player game where the combat got repetitive quickly, the story was uninspired, there was a lot of endless, pointless walking, and the game sucked for the most part.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:20 pm

Ghostwheel wrote:
sabs wrote:NWN 1 was awesome because of all the cool persistant world games that came out of it. I don't think I ever actually played the actual story.
I was referring exclusively to the single player game where the combat got repetitive quickly, the story was uninspired, there was a lot of endless, pointless walking, and the game sucked for the most part.

then okay

I basically didn't play that.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:41 pm

I liked the idea of PWs but every one I tried out was basically the admin's god-characters and their bestest buds running the place. it was possible to have fun in these places but it got old really fast when all the adventures were about a select few people's grand quests to become even more ridiculously powerful.

basically like MUDs only even more drama and an engine even more inflexible than DIKU

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:22 pm

I wonder if it might have any potential if they went away from the "real-time" aspect of the game and went back to a Pools of Radiance- or ToEE-style gameplay where each person takes a turn, etc. Kinda like Final Fantasy Tactics, I guess.

Obviously you'd need to have it a lot more streamlined and less clunky than those games, but it might be better than the trash the last NWNs have been...

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:25 pm

Fire Emblem I say. I doubt many have heard of it, but it's fun whenever the RNG IS NOT trying to get all your character raped up the butt. Because character death is PERMANENT and you have to start an entire map all over if you don't want to lose someone who accidentally died. Also, being a tactical game like Final Fantasy Tactics, your brains actually get something to work with...other than porn...which turns your brain on in a different manner, but that is beside the point.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:43 pm

4e would be almost perfectly suited to being shoehorned into a real time computer game. You give every power its own cool down timer, at-wills refresh in about a second, encounters refresh in about a minute, dailies refresh in more like 5 minutes. And then you play in a fast-paced diablo-esque click fest.

All the powers are pretty much the same, and it takes a lot of attacks to bring down enemies, and you can win pretty much any fight by phoning it in and using one basic attack over and over again. This is fucking terribad for a role playing game, but that is exactly what the doctor ordered for a Diablo clone!

Yeah, it would require big changes to the game, like obviously letting people use their specials a lot more often and purging all the powers that had too complicated of a decision tree. But the powers are already as simplistic as Diablo powers for the most part. Select attack, right click target. Repeat. It would work fine. It would be better than actual 4th edition D&D.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:39 am

It would also be better than Diablo 2. Simply by not being Diablo 2.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:22 am

I think what would be funny, is if 4e first came out as a Diablo-esque PC game, and THEN reverted to a tabletop game.

I reckon it would be about as popular and playable as the Diablo tabletop RPG.

And I'll take this opportunity to again plug Titan Quest: Immortal Throne, which bends Diablo over a rock and does spelunking things to it.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:19 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: All the powers are pretty much the same, and it takes a lot of attacks to bring down enemies, and you can win pretty much any fight by phoning it in and using one basic attack over and over again. This is fucking terribad for a role playing game, but that is exactly what the doctor ordered for a Diablo clone!

I full-round attack

fuck that is so awesome I'm glad I'm not phoning it in and just using one basic attack over and over again

also you know what's terribad for an RPG? caster supremacy. what's awesome for an RPG? a semblance of balance between classes.

FrankTrollman wrote: Yeah, it would require big changes to the game, like obviously letting people use their specials a lot more often and purging all the powers that had too complicated of a decision tree. But the powers are already as simplistic as Diablo powers for the most part. Select attack, right click target. Repeat. It would work fine. It would be better than actual 4th edition D&D.

-Username17

yeah I'd be inclined to believe this if you hadn't said that there were no rules for breaking down doors in 4e, Frank

seriously you try to heap criticism on a system you haven't even read the basic rules for or even tried to play, doesn't the sheer weight of your hypocrisy make you want to break down and start sobbing?

oh and TQ:IT was Diablo in Greece/Egypt/Orient/Hell, it did literally nothing different than Diablo II except the slight innovation of letting you slightly customize your class, except Dream is stupidly overpowered so good luck seeing people not use it.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:39 pm

Caster Supremacy is not terribad for a Roleplaying game.
It's not even close to terribad.

Ars Magica
Earthdawn

Are both games where Mages are just better than everyone, but that's okay because everyone is a Mage.

You whine and whine about Caster Supremacy, but really you're whining about Magic. Because you never give your non-caster characters in your examples a single magic item. You're one of those guys who whines that D&D sucks, because you're level 17 fighter with 0 magic items doesn't rate. That's just fucking stupid. it's a HIGH FANTASY game. High Fantasy means, super-awesome magic. Everyone uses Magic, great Fighters have Magic Armor, Magic Weapons, Magic rings, and Shields and Helmets. (And A Spear)

They have Rods of Command, and they ride a fucking Dragon. They have literally a small army of 100 armed men with them.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:06 pm

sabs wrote:Caster Supremacy is not terribad for a Roleplaying game.
It's not even close to terribad.

Ars Magica
Earthdawn

you know what makes Ars Magica and Earthdawn exempt from caster supremacy? they don't pretend that people other than casters are worth a damn.

sabs wrote: Are both games where Mages are just better than everyone, but that's okay because everyone is a Mage.

yeah I kinda bolded the important part; you are saying that caster supremacy is good for systems where everyone is a mage AND systems where not everyone is a mage. this is stupid.

sabs wrote: You whine and whine about Caster Supremacy, but really you're whining about Magic. Because you never give your non-caster characters in your examples a single magic item. You're one of those guys who whines that D&D sucks, because you're level 17 fighter with 0 magic items doesn't rate. That's just fucking stupid. it's a HIGH FANTASY game. High Fantasy means, super-awesome magic. Everyone uses Magic, great Fighters have Magic Armor, Magic Weapons, Magic rings, and Shields and Helmets. (And A Spear)

They have Rods of Command, and they ride a fucking Dragon. They have literally a small army of 100 armed men with them.

herp derp because I recognize caster supremacy I must have never made a high-level fighter.

know what any Fighter'll always die to? Empowered Split Ray of Stupidity. averages 12 int damage. grats, your dragon-rider? he's in a coma. damn, sucks to be his player. and even if he has some goofy PrC to negate stat damage, there are literally dozens of other spells that a martial cannot defend against.

that is what caster supremacy is about. it's not about being able to make a cool Fighter, sure, that's possible. it's about any caster who hasn't been eating paint chips being able to go Godzilla all over your sandcastle at will. is it likely to happen? not really. but the power discrepancy is absolutely terrible for what purports to be a cooperative adventure.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:08 pm

oh and make sure to ask anyone else on the board if caster supremacy exists in 3e, especially the people who made the Tomes.

protip: they'll say yes.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:30 pm

And...are you done pissing yourself while hating on casters? Because if you are, you can move along and try to find something else to do...if you have the brain capacity for it.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:30 pm

A ring of Spell Turning, armor with Major Globe of Invulnerability stops that 12 int damage. I admit, Ray of Stupidity is broken. It's from Dragon Magazine, what the FUCK is wrong with you. You're complaining a game is broken because of a spell created and published in Dragon Annual #5?

That's just. Gah..

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:34 pm

sabs wrote:A ring of Spell Turning, armor with Major Globe of Invulnerability stops that 12 int damage. I admit, Ray of Stupidity is broken. It's from Dragon Magazine, what the FUCK is wrong with you. You're complaining a game is broken because of a spell created and published in Dragon Annual #5?

That's just. Gah..

And you know, also the Spell Compendium. Literally the second book anyone goes to for spells.

But no, Ray of Stupidity is not broken. It never has been, and it never will be. Sure, it's fucking retardedly awesome at murdering animals, and that's great, but if you aren't fighting a dinosaur or a T rex, the amount of stupid shit you have to invest in for your character to be able to beat things not immune to ability damage isn't worth the expenditure.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:38 pm

it's never any one spell, it's the entire spell system in AD&D and 3e that's broken.

also I can't find armor of Globe of Invuln, and the best way to take down Spell Turning is to just pump a couple buffs into it. oh no! I just cast Overland Flight on you but I got the benefits! woops! Stoneskin now! oh dear you mean all that ring did was make me cast a few buffs? welp, guess it's time to cast Maze. oh dear you mean that gives me ten minutes to set up all sorts of fun surprises on you.

edit: also, amusingly, Spell Turning is pointless against area effects and the only Armor of Invulnerability I can find is epic level. oh shit! epic Wizards can't cast level 4 or lower spells on you? whatever will they do!

now make sure to point out a build that can maybe negate Maze (if the caster is assumed to be an idiot and the Fighter is as close to Batman as a martial can be) but can't do shit about Irresistible Dance, or the Wizard using Polymorph Any Object to turn into a goddamn Tarrasque, or Shivering Touch with Archmage's Arcane Reach ability.

Gods_Trick · Post by **Gods_Trick** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:55 pm

Dude, you hate 3.5. We get that. We hate PF & 4E.

So why are you flailing in a thread about hating 4E? Cause you know, we hate it?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:59 pm

Plebian wrote:also I can't find armor of Globe of Invuln, and the best way to take down Spell Turning is to just pump a couple buffs into it. oh no! I just cast Overland Flight on you but I got the benefits! woops! Stoneskin now! oh dear you mean all that ring did was make me cast a few buffs? welp, guess it's time to cast Maze. oh dear you mean that gives me ten minutes to set up all sorts of fun surprises on you.

edit: also, amusingly, Spell Turning is pointless against area effects and the only Armor of Invulnerability I can find is epic level. oh shit! epic Wizards can't cast level 4 or lower spells on you? whatever will they do!

now make sure to point out a build that can maybe negate Maze (if the caster is assumed to be an idiot and the Fighter is as close to Batman as a martial can be) but can't do shit about Irresistible Dance, or the Wizard using Polymorph Any Object to turn into a goddamn Tarrasque, or Shivering Touch with Archmage's Arcane Reach ability.

I made the mistake of reading this. Now you have to to everyone smarter than me.

So here's some fun:

Overland Flight: Range: Personal
Stoneskin: Range: Touch

Maze, Irresistible Dance, Shivering Touch (w/Archmage Reach, which I assume means you want to stand within 5ft to use Irresistible Dance, since you didn't mention Archmage for that.)

PaO: "Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form."

Tarrasque: Int 3.

Here's my build.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:59 pm

Gods_Trick wrote:Dude, you hate 3.5. We get that. We hate PF & 4E.

So why are you flailing in a thread about hating 4E? Cause you know, we hate it?

My two theories.

1.) He seriously has nothing better to do.

2.) He gets turned on by this, in some very, VERY weird way.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:17 pm

He figures if he dumps enough hate on 3rd edition, Mike will start returning his calls.

edit: and Batman is not a fighter. If anything, Artificer MCed rogue would be more appropriate.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:44 pm

it's really funny that pointing out 3e's horrible, horrible flaws means you hate it. because, obviously, if you like something that means you ignore all the really retarded flaws like Diplomancing/Bluffomancing, and casting in general.

but I don't hate any system, with the possible exception of FATAL. they're really not worth hating, and if you hate a tabletop then you might want to evaluate how seriously you take your hobby. I had fun with 3e. just like I had fun with AD&D. unfortunately, having fun with a system doesn't make the system mechanics good with the magic of friendship. 3e's got really, really shitty mechanics, 4e inherited a fair number but at the very least is trying to change instead of just throwing a couple improvements at AD&D and calling it a day. at the end of the day I'll take improvement over stagnation.

also for PaO: fine, a golden Great Wyrm. woopsie hi there 32 base int. as for the other spells, I'm sure you'll forgive me. I gave up on memorizing the good 3e spells years back because while it may make my e-penis longer it really isn't good for anything. but trying to prove that caster supremacy doesn't exist or that it isn't a problem? wow, that's just dumb.

also, uh, Inevitables aren't really very scary at all? their at-wills are suitably stupid but their saves are absolutely horrible. at-will enervation is just one of those tricks that DMs never use unless they're trying to fuck over the party/specific person and, in that case, the DM doesn't even need it. it's just a pointless reminder in the MM that the DM can, in fact, fuck anyone's day up because he's the DM.

Gods_Trick · Post by **Gods_Trick** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:04 pm

Pointing out 3E flaws in a thread devoted to 4E .... yeah, look into that man. Comparing them on this thread just makes you seem schizophrenic or as icyshadow says, turned on by the flaming.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:08 pm

actually it all started with me saying that 4e avoids the caster supremacy issues from AD&D and 3e which is completely relevant.

and, amusingly, only the derails about 3e being shitty get commented on. the ones about videogames and shit? those are perfectly relevant!

Gods_Trick · Post by **Gods_Trick** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:19 pm

Probably because the opinions you hold aren't the opinions I/we hold, but fair enough.

And I agree, 4E does avoid caster supremacy. One of the reasons why I avoid it like herpes: casters were the only thing in 3E that sped up combat!

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:46 pm

It's almost like he hasn't read the posts even on this page.

Irrelevant, ignorant, and wrong. Most folks manage to hit one of those on occasion, but Darwinism gets the trifecta, every time.