So what IS going on with 4E these days.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:01 pm

Gods_Trick wrote:Probably because the opinions you hold aren't the opinions I/we hold, but fair enough.

And I agree, 4E does avoid caster supremacy. One of the reasons why I avoid it like herpes: casters were the only thing in 3E that sped up combat!

so play Ars Magica. D&D at least pretends to be a party-based game, any party-based game with trap choices does not have a good system.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:55 am

Plebian wrote:also for PaO: fine, a golden Great Wyrm. woopsie hi there 32 base int. as for the other spells, I'm sure you'll forgive me. I gave up on memorizing the good 3e spells years back because while it may make my e-penis longer it really isn't good for anything. but trying to prove that caster supremacy doesn't exist or that it isn't a problem? wow, that's just dumb.

also, uh, Inevitables aren't really very scary at all? their at-wills are suitably stupid but their saves are absolutely horrible. at-will enervation is just one of those tricks that DMs never use unless they're trying to fuck over the party/specific person and, in that case, the DM doesn't even need it. it's just a pointless reminder in the MM that the DM can, in fact, fuck anyone's day up because he's the DM.

1) Inevitable beats Polymorphed Golden Dragon too.

2) Um... So, inevitables are not scary if they don't attack, and it's unfair for the DM to use them because they are too good, horrible.

You said "Build that beats X, Y, Z" I picked the only CR 15 construct or in the SRD, though I could have also picked lower level constructs or undead, Or the Mummy Lord, or various other monsters, like the CR 14 Trumpet Archon, that can cast Sheltered Vitality and has a magic circle against evil effect, and a Greater Teleport at will, or the CR 14 Astral Deva which has Globe of Invulnerability, Planeshift, and Magic Circle against Evil.

I mean, there are only 7 CR 15s in the SRD, and all of them are immune to all of the spells you listed, assuming your dragons are not retards. I picked the only one that doesn't cast spells, because I knew if I pointed to spells, you would whine.

Apparently, it just turns out you always whine.

Gods_Trick · Post by **Gods_Trick** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 am

Plebian wrote:
Gods_Trick wrote:Probably because the opinions you hold aren't the opinions I/we hold, but fair enough.

And I agree, 4E does avoid caster supremacy. One of the reasons why I avoid it like herpes: casters were the only thing in 3E that sped up combat!
so play Ars Magica. D&D at least pretends to be a party-based game, any party-based game with trap choices does not have a good system.

Naa I like a variety of power levels. Though tier 6's are for some grimdark games.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:53 am

Gods_Trick wrote:Naa I like a variety of power levels. Though tier 6's are for some grimdark games.

My brain bleeds from your stupidity.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:10 am

Kaelik wrote:
Plebian wrote:also for PaO: fine, a golden Great Wyrm. woopsie hi there 32 base int. as for the other spells, I'm sure you'll forgive me. I gave up on memorizing the good 3e spells years back because while it may make my e-penis longer it really isn't good for anything. but trying to prove that caster supremacy doesn't exist or that it isn't a problem? wow, that's just dumb.

also, uh, Inevitables aren't really very scary at all? their at-wills are suitably stupid but their saves are absolutely horrible. at-will enervation is just one of those tricks that DMs never use unless they're trying to fuck over the party/specific person and, in that case, the DM doesn't even need it. it's just a pointless reminder in the MM that the DM can, in fact, fuck anyone's day up because he's the DM.
1) Inevitable beats Polymorphed Golden Dragon too.

2) Um... So, inevitables are not scary if they don't attack, and it's unfair for the DM to use them because they are too good, horrible.

You said "Build that beats X, Y, Z" I picked the only CR 15 construct or in the SRD, though I could have also picked lower level constructs or undead, Or the Mummy Lord, or various other monsters, like the CR 14 Trumpet Archon, that can cast Sheltered Vitality and has a magic circle against evil effect, and a Greater Teleport at will, or the CR 14 Astral Deva which has Globe of Invulnerability, Planeshift, and Magic Circle against Evil.

I mean, there are only 7 CR 15s in the SRD, and all of them are immune to all of the spells you listed, assuming your dragons are not retards. I picked the only one that doesn't cast spells, because I knew if I pointed to spells, you would whine.

Apparently, it just turns out you always whine.

pointing out retarded Gygaxian monsters designed to fuck parties that get too uppity really isn't doing any good to the system, you realize. they're just a written codification about how the DM is capable of bending you over and cordially greeting your lower intestine, but if you need that kind of reminder you're probably pretty stupid; any DM can fuck you. a good DM doesn't fuck you, he challenges you.

now, I do realize that you have trouble seeing a DM challenge a party without violating it with silly monsters that have no business being in the game except to validate the party, but can you tell me the last time any DM used a monster to its full potential?

now, was it against a caster?

oh, it was? because any other character would be hopelessly outmatched and a caster is the only thing that stands a chance?

man I'm glad 3e didn't have classes that could never actually match the idiotic Gygaxian monstrosities with iditoic at-wills.

oh by the way thanks for proving my point about caster supremacy, you're a real bro

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:21 am

Excuse me Plebian, what the FUCK has anything you are ranting incoherently on about got to do with what is going on with 4E?

This is NOT a rules discussion thread.

This is NOT an edition wars thread.

This is a "Will 4E die in the next year like the 4E fan boys themselves on the primary official 4E fan boy forum seem to realistically fear?" thread.

You are not answering that question. You are going on your own irrational and fucking annoying crusade.

I don't mind, go ahead trash up dozens of pages of entirely infantile edition war ranting. But do it in an edition war thread you fucking idiot.

In the mean time if you want to post in here, post on the fucking topic.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:33 am

PhoneLobster wrote: This is NOT an edition wars thread.

PhoneLobster wrote: This is a "Will 4E die in the next year like the 4E fan boys themselves on the primary official 4E fan boy forum seem to realistically fear?" thread.

hahahahahaha you really don't know what cognitive dissonance is do you

I am betting you don't

but to take your really stupid question seriously? nope, it won't. I mean idiots have been foretelling the death of D&D since the first edition change was released. all it ever amounts to is nostalgia-induced wishful thinking.

4e's going strong, as the last convention I attended made very clear and conventions I've looked into for the future attest to; there are roughly ten 4e games for every game of a previous edition. and, man, I had tons of fun there. every group I was in I was able to contribute meaningfully and I didn't even have to touch a caster class. that's priceless.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:11 am

Plebian wrote:4e's going strong, as the last convention I attended made very clear and conventions I've looked into for the future attest to; there are roughly ten 4e games for every game of a previous edition. and, man, I had tons of fun there. every group I was in I was able to contribute meaningfully and I didn't even have to touch a caster class. that's priceless.

Then why is WOTC's publication calendar nearly empty? Why aren't they crowing this supposed resurgence from the rooftops? Where's the evidence of this supposed surge in interest besides anecdotes from someone with an obvious agenda?

I'm idly curious where WOTC goes from here, because it really does seem like Essentials has cratered. It doesn't matter whether 3e is better than 4e or vice versa. Where is WOTC going from here, with an empty calendar, no staff, flagging sales, and doom and gloom even from the fanboys?

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:13 am

I wonder how high you were when you stumbled into that convention,
because that sounds either VERY biased or then you're just outright bullshitting about it having been an actual con.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:14 am

Stop being trolled.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:16 am

Psychic Robot wrote:Stop being trolled.

I wouldn't say I'm being trolled, because Plebian does a far better job making me laugh than he does getting on my nerves.
With that said, care to contribute to this thread in some other way?

Edited.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:32 am

Plebian wrote:hahahahahaha you really don't know what cognitive dissonance is do you

I am betting you don't

Not only do I know that I also...

A) Know that questions, even rhetorical ones, end in question marks. Or at least SOME sort of punctuation. I'm no grammar nazi, but really, if you're going for the "yo be so ignorant dat..." line.

B) Know that cognitive dissonance requires an actual contradiction. Saying "Is this edition over like its even it's fans seem to think?" is entirely and completely unrelated to the question "Is it right to be a fan of this edition?".

So try the "I bet you don't even know what..." line again some day when you can actually present it without making yourself look like an ignoramus.

In the mean time... care to name your magical convention and provide an actual say, events program from it? Because all other reports on such things have generally indicated that early in 4E it was basically 1 for 1 4E and 3E and these days apparently about the same 4E and Pathfinder.

And considering your history of "accuracy" and "sanity" I'm afraid that your word alone just isn't good enough. Considering who you are you could tell me that you went outside this morning and I would demand "photos or it didn't happen".

Gods_Trick · Post by **Gods_Trick** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:52 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Gods_Trick wrote:Naa I like a variety of power levels. Though tier 6's are for some grimdark games.
My brain bleeds from your stupidity.

Bleed way lad. Gets the clots out. Perhaps the meaning of facetious shall come to you

souran · Post by **souran** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:55 pm

A Man In Black wrote: Then why is WOTC's publication calendar nearly empty? Why aren't they crowing this supposed resurgence from the rooftops? Where's the evidence of this supposed surge in interest besides anecdotes from someone with an obvious agenda?

I'm idly curious where WOTC goes from here, because it really does seem like Essentials has cratered. It doesn't matter whether 3e is better than 4e or vice versa. Where is WOTC going from here, with an empty calendar, no staff, flagging sales, and doom and gloom even from the fanboys?

I prefrer to play 4e over all other editions of D&D and this is very similar to my main concerns.

I liked 4e AND I liked essentials, and in all likelyhood I would like a 5e D&D.

The real issue is that wizards has not produced anything that has any crunch this year. All the books with rules for merging 4e and essentials got taken off the calendar. The whole sales catalogue for this year is essentially just novels and boardgames.

I like essentials well enough and if it is 4.5e D&D that is fine. Actually, part of the reason why I ended up with every essentials book is because from there Ampersand column they made it appear that "essentials style" characters would become the new norm.

However, there is no real indication of what they plan to do at all. Worse based on dragon it looks like they decided that having essentials D&D and 4E D&D both and just keep chugging along there seperate but similar ways.

The absoulte worst period I can remember as a D&D player was when TSR was publishing materials for both "Basic" Dungeons and Dragons and AD&D/2E. It was a gigantic mess.

Anyway, I don't think we are looking at the death of D&D or even 4E but the lack of staffing and products seems clear that there is some kind of fight for the direction of D&D products moving forward from here.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:26 pm

Gods_Trick wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Gods_Trick wrote:Naa I like a variety of power levels. Though tier 6's are for some grimdark games.
My brain bleeds from your stupidity.
Bleed way lad. Gets the clots out. Perhaps the meaning of facetious shall come to you

Perhaps some day you may even discover why I think you are stupid. It has nothing to do with if you were facetious or not.

malak · Post by **malak** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:45 pm

souran wrote:I prefrer to play 4e over all other editions of D&D and this is very similar to my main concerns.

[...]

The real issue is that wizards has not produced anything that has any crunch this year. All the books with rules for merging 4e and essentials got taken off the calendar. The whole sales catalogue for this year is essentially just novels and boardgames.

[...]

However, there is no real indication of what they plan to do at all. Worse based on dragon it looks like they decided that having essentials D&D and 4E D&D both and just keep chugging along there seperate but similar ways.

I guess that would be because they have no plan at all.

But mixing 4E and 4EE content is not a problem, the way it looks now is that they just use the essentials format for martial chars and the 4e for wizards and other magic-user chars.

But yes, the problem is that they don't really have ANYTHING on the horizon. Heroes of Shadows and Heroes of the Feywild are player books, Shadowfell and Neverwinter are two campaign books for DMs. That's about it, except for the stupid D&D fortune cards.

It wouldn't even matter if the lack of books was offset with DDI content, but that is lacking too.

Maybe it is time for 5e.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Speaking of DDI, today's update included the Essentials Warlord.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:12 pm

Gods_Trick wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Gods_Trick wrote:Naa I like a variety of power levels. Though tier 6's are for some grimdark games.
My brain bleeds from your stupidity.
Bleed way lad. Gets the clots out. Perhaps the meaning of facetious shall come to you

People don't take JaronK's tier system very seriously over here, or at least I can only assume that's what Kaelik is talking about.

Just a bit of history:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48958

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=161711

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=189903

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:40 pm

Winnah wrote:edit: and Batman is not a fighter. If anything, Artificer MCed rogue would be more appropriate.

The Classic Batman was always classified as a "Detective" - this would mean that intelligence and wisdom would be primary stats.

Gods_Trick · Post by **Gods_Trick** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:57 pm

RobbyPants wrote:
Gods_Trick wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
My brain bleeds from your stupidity.
Bleed way lad. Gets the clots out. Perhaps the meaning of facetious shall come to you
People don't take JaronK's tier system very seriously over here, or at least I can only assume that's what Kaelik is talking about.

Just a bit of history:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48958

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=161711

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=189903

I presume so as well Robby. Thanks for the advice . However forum cliques and whats cool to believe, feh to groupthink, and Kealik's respect or pity is his issue. Rudeness is annoying, but hey, its the Internet

I don't agree with all of JaronK's designations in the Tiers, but I think the idea of tiers themself is pretty useful. I'd someone needs to be way better at passive-aggressive insults to make me censor my opinions

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:09 pm

I'm confused; how does a lack of splatbooks equate to the death of an edition?

trying to find the logic but it's just not there, because "pff they aren't releasing a ton of shitty books like 3e/3.5 did that must mean they're doing badly" just doesn't make sense

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:12 pm

Any luck identifying a convention with a 10:1 ratio of 4e to 3e (or PF)?

Every post to Darwinism past this point needs to include that question.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:26 pm

Ferret wrote:Speaking of DDI, today's update included the Essentials Warlord.

Read the article. It's like they took everything I liked about the Essentials fighter, threw that out, and churned out a shitty 4e mold.

Novembermike · Post by **Novembermike** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:32 pm

tzor wrote:
Winnah wrote:edit: and Batman is not a fighter. If anything, Artificer MCed rogue would be more appropriate.
The Classic Batman was always classified as a "Detective" - this would mean that intelligence and wisdom would be primary stats.

DnD is entirely inadequate to describe any solitary character like batman, but he's clearly a fighter in combat and a rogueish character in terms of skills.

Plebian · Post by **Plebian** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:51 pm

Doom wrote:Any luck identifying a convention with a 10:1 ratio of 4e to 3e (or PF)?

Every post to Darwinism past this point needs to include that question.

oh, sure, it was Genghis Con 2011, but the organization took down the old site in preparation for Tacticon. I'll try to dig up my schedule.

3e/PF had about eight tables in a common room for all four days. 4e had to split up into different rooms across two floors of the hotel and in one of the conference rooms. oh and there was a really goddamn fun BI with around eighty players and a bunch of other nerds in costume LARPing out the NPCs for us. good times. of course there were also quite a few 4e games running at the same time for people who didn't want to play a BI.

but I'm sure those PF/3e tables had a good time too. there just weren't very many of them.