So what IS going on with 4E these days.

[PhoneLobster]

then you might actually have to attribute blame to other people equally

I'm pretty sure I don't and I'm pretty sure I'm right not to.

Regardless take your derail to another thread you can totally just do that and continue your discussion there.

Further as far as I understand it one of the FEW rules we have ever had around here is the "I don't want this guy posting in my thread" rule. I'm not sure it's still around but I hope like hell it is.

Because I'm telling YOU right NOW, stop posting in my thread, you are NOT contributing you ARE crapping the place up with your wanky idiocy. It's addressable, easily pointed out idiocy, and people are doing that, but I don't want that happening HERE.

[Draco_Argentum]

I think you need to put a no Plebians line in the thread title still.

[Plebian]

then you might actually have to attribute blame to other people equally

I'm pretty sure I don't and I'm pretty sure I'm right not to.

Regardless take your derail to another thread you can totally just do that and continue your discussion there.

Further as far as I understand it one of the FEW rules we have ever had around here is the "I don't want this guy posting in my thread" rule. I'm not sure it's still around but I hope like hell it is.

Because I'm telling YOU right NOW, stop posting in my thread, you are NOT contributing you ARE crapping the place up with your wanky idiocy. It's addressable, easily pointed out idiocy, and people are doing that, but I don't want that happening HERE.

make sure to tell everyone else that participates in the 99% of this thread that is derails to stay out, too, otherwise you'd just look like a petty little douchebag

[Doom]

Is there any thread Darwinism posted to more than a few times that didn't get shut down?

[Aharon]

Well, this thread seems to be an example where plebian posted without it getting shotdown.

At whoever said so (Artificers weak or broken at low levels) it requires work on the part of the person playing the artificer, but medium and high, non-broken power-levels are possible.

I.e. at first level they could summon large elementals, but they don't have to. An example of a strong, but balanced first level artificer build:

Warforged, 28 point buy
9, 11, 13, 15, 11, 15
mddle aged:
8, 10, 14, 16, 10, 14

Feats: Iron Will, Flaw: Hardened Criminal

Take 10+4 ranks+2 cha +2 competence +2 aid another=20
=> can activate any found wands with 100% probability.

Abilities, 2/day, per Personal Natural weapon augmentation and personal weapon augmentation (both the only ones in the line with 0gp material component cost):

Personal Weapon Augmentation/Personal Natural Weapon Augmentation
Stygian (1 negative level), 3/day, 10 minutes MIC
Everbright weapon Ref DC 14 blindness, 20ft. Radius, 1 round MIC
Stunning Fort DC 13, 1 round, can only be added to bludgeoning ammunition (i.e. Slings) HoB
Torturous Fort DC 12/17, 1 round stun, Ghostwalk
Cursespewing Will DC 15 –4 morale penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks BoVD
Exhausting Fort DC 14 fatigued Shining South
Viper on Huge Dagger => Large Viper Serpent Kingdoms
Smoking 20% Concealment Lords of Darkness
Rusting – metal objects that come into contact with it rust, Shining south

Broken ,abilities (needs both 1st level infusion slots, summons large elemental of appropriate type for 11 rounds)
Shock/Air Elemental Power
Corrosive/Earth Elemental Power
Flaming/Fire Elemental Power
Frost/Water Elemental Power

I think that the non-broken stuff roughly corresponds to the things wizards&sorcerers have available at 1st level. Overall, it may not be MVP, but the artificer can contribute without being broken. I do agree that doing that takes more system mastery than with a wizard, though.

(caveat: I composed this message while already slightly drunk. Please ascribe errors to that fact.)




(God doesn't forbid alcohol. Vivat, crescat, floreat, Wingolf.)

Bye, and have a nice day!

[Username17]

Any build that is supposed to be compared to casters that requires the use of the Aging rules is broken by default. Regardless of how much power they can or can't bring to the table, just the act of convincing your MC to read and allow the aging rules breaks the Wizard and Druid right in half.

-Username17

[Aharon]

It doesn't require the aging rules, they just make the build slightly stronger. You could work with standard age almost as well (slightly lower intellectual, slightly higher physical stats. Warforged only allow middle-age anyway, which is -1 to STR, DEX, CON and +to INT, WIS, CHA.

You still get the 2 infusions per day required, you would even get those with INT 12.

The point stands: that you can build a non-broken artificer that isn't weak. You do that by focusing on his infusions instead of his ability to create and use permanent items. This may well be a design oversight. Most item abilities are written with the assumption that you have to spend some, or even lots, of money and xp to get them. But wether it was caused by a design oversight or not, you definitely can[i/] use these abilities, RAW. I agree that this probably isn't intended, but it is one consequence of the RAW.

Again, sorry for any inconsistencies. These are very likely caused by consuming alcohol. But writing drunk certainly is better than puking.
By the way, some friends of mine, who are almost as drunk as I am, are currently amusing themselves because they saw the expression "to drive the porcellain bus" for the first time

[Data Vampire]

Take 10+4 ranks+2 cha +2 competence +2 aid another=20
=> can activate any found wands with 100% probability.

You both cannot use aid another on use magic device checks nor take 10.

[edit]Will you can take 10 at level 13 and higher do to a class feature, but your build is level 1.

[fbmf]

I think you need to put a no Plebians line in the thread title still.

If you are asked by the Original Poster to stay out of a thread in the Title of the thread, then stay out of the thread. If you do not want a particular poster in your thread, include "(Name), please stay out." in the thread title.

That is correct.
[/TGFBS]

[Aharon]

There's a feat in the City of Stormreach sourcebook that lets you take 10 ony one skill. I assumed flaws are in use, without it, the build can't have it before 3rd level, as it requires Iron Will as a prereq.
You don't really need it anyway, if custom UmD boosters are allowed.

Why shouldn't aid another be allowed?
The relevant restriction would probably be

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

A rogue with 4 ranks in UMD could achieve the task of activating a wand alone, although only seldomly.

[Leress]

mD boosters are allowed.

Why shouldn't aid another be allowed?
The relevant restriction would probably be

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

A rogue with 4 ranks in UMD could achieve the task of activating a wand alone, although only seldomly.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm

Read at the bottom

Special

You cannot take 10 with this skill.

You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check.

If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks.

[Winnah]

The aging rules are awesome. Take some downtime until you hit venerable with a short lived race and then Reincarnate. Then take another 100 years downtime and start accruing those cumulative aging bonuses to mental stats. Rinse and repeat.

Completely impractical in anything like a normal game, but awesome if your GM allows nonsense like custom Genesis slow/no time. You'll be as clever as the Doctor, but without all the hangups of being a Time Lord.

[Aharon]

@Leress
Thanks, I either never noticed that before or forgot.

@Winnah
You don't have to use these rules that way. I agree that overusing them, or slapping venerable on critters that are immune to the negative effects, is imbalancing. Making your character middle-aged for a small bonus isn't. Although it's another case where casters benefit and non-casters don't, it's one of the smallest offenders if not abused. And taking old or venerable when you actually do suffer the penalties is something one doesn't do without serious deliberation. Even casters benefit from non-abysmal Dex and Con scores at very low levels.

@Example Warforged
Ok, yet another mistake. This time I found it myself
Personal Natural Weapon Augmentation can't be used in conjunction with Personal Weapon Augmentation the way I thought it could. I misremembered the Warforged Slam Attack, I thought it counted as both natural and manufactured. As this isn't the case, you have to wait till level 3 to get the elementals, when you get Lesser Weapon Augmentation.

[erik]

Aharon, you are proposing to use aging rules to get free extra points out of a point buy system. How is that not unbalancing? It is a straight power-up with no cost. Not a huge imbalance, but getting something for nothing is always an imbalance.

Actually, check that. As you listed your point buy, there is no benefit whatsoever and it is totally pointless. It is weird which stats got boosts and which ones did not. Is that a warforged thing that I missed?

Warforged, 28 point buy
9, 11, 13, 15, 11, 15
mddle aged:
8, 10, 14, 16, 10, 14

The bottom is actually 26 points after modifications... but for some reason you got -1 Str, Dex, Wis and Cha, and +1 Int and Con. What to the what?

Should it not be:
middle aged:
8, 10, 12, 16, 12, 16 ...?

In that case you would have a 30 point buy now and we're back to something for nothing.



[edit:] I should note that these are small potato complaints mostly just about good form. Of course an Artificer can ride off the rails with custom UMD items especially with access to whatever those elemental thingies are.

That said, I've never played in a campaign where a DM was fine with custom +UMD items via the DMG guidelines, and only rarely were aging rules allowed. Just cuz it is legal doesn't mean you should expect it to happen. Case in point, nobody actually plays Pun Pun and nobody sane allows custom use activated True Strike either.

[Judging__Eagle]

It would also be better than Diablo 2. Simply by not being Diablo 2.

Diablo 2 is more tactically in depth than 4E is though; and you can actually fight a fiend lord without having to spend..... hours on the encounter.

Also, the character abilities in Diablo 2 are much more game affecting than most 4E powers. Characters don't get AoE crowd control in 4E in the 1st third of their power growth (barbarian fear, necro slow, sorc slow, zon ranged, assassin traps); they don't get the ability to bring in allies (necro pets, zon pet, druid pets); or actually benefit allies who are nearby them (druid pet auras, paladin auras, barbarian shouts).

Seriously, copying D2 into an accurate depiction of the vidja game could have made a decent tabletop port. Which could have made for a more interesting and potentially more balanced game than anything that Mike Mearls and the assclowns that worked on 4E came up with.

Sure players couldn't break down a wall, or climb a fence; but at least in an actual fight they could do stuff that mattered and more importantly that you cared about.

[Leress]

Seriously, copying D2 into an accurate depiction of the vidja game could have made a decent tabletop port. Which could have made for a more interesting and potentially more balanced game than anything that Mike Mearls and the assclowns that worked on 4E came up with.

They did

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/main.asp?x=d2/diabloii,3

and it was shit.

[Aharon]

@erik
@point buy imbalanced
Hm... True. I conceed it is unbalanced. Wishful thinking on my part.

@point buy incorrect
Yep, warforged thing. Warforged get +2 con, -2 wis, -2 cha, which I did insert at the same time as the middle aged boni and mali without mentioning it. This would indeed make it 30 point buy.

@custom +UMDs
As I said, artificers do work without those, just not as well. By focusing on your infusions, you can get some pretty decent effects, and you don't need UMD for them. All Armor and Weapon special abilities were written with the fact in mind that you have to pay a permanent large cost to get them. Artificers can access some of those for free, and some for only little gold. I.e. Rusting is an ability based on the 4th level druid spell rusting grasp, but you get it at 1st level.

@legality/DM fiat
Yes, it's always the question where the individual DM draws the line. However, most DMs are at least consistent with their lines, so I have problems imagining a DM that nerfs the Artificer without touching the Wizard. Case in Point: Chain Binding, on which Frank's whole economic system is based, gets DMGs thrown at you on most tables.

[Ghostwheel]

Aharon: Are you taking into account that most infusions require one *minute* to cast?

You can burn an action point to reduce it to a more manageable activation time, but... you don't get many of those and there are many games that don't use them.

[Aharon]

@Ghostwheel
1) Artificers are based on Eberron, which introduces action points and strongly suggests their use.
More importantly,
2) Yes, the casting time is long. However, they usually have a 10 min/level duration, so you don't cast them in battle, anyway. You cast the infusion. Your armor/weapon now has enhancement x. Enhancement x bestows an ability that can be activated y times per day as a swift/standard action.
3) There are also a few artificer infusions with shorter casting times (for example, bull's strength and the other stat+4 spells, magic vestments, magic weapon and greater magic weapon). You probably won't care about the casting time of those, though, because almost all of the useful ones are buffs.

[Meikle641]

They did

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/main.asp?x=d2/diabloii,3

and it was shit.

I dunno, I thought the Diablo game from WotC had some okay-ish things. Far from amazing, but I'd say there's far worse game products.

[Data Vampire]

I noticed that some posters on the WotC forums have a little beholder icon that indicates that they are official play testers.

[Xur]

I noticed that some posters on the WotC forums have a little beholder icon that indicates that they are official play testers.

Wait a minute... and they didn't launch a new board and community portal for that? I need to make a will save.

[Murtak]

At whoever said so (Artificers weak or broken at low levels) it requires work on the part of the person playing the artificer, but medium and high, non-broken power-levels are possible.

Broken ,abilities (needs both 1st level infusion slots, summons large elemental of appropriate type for 11 rounds)

So by your own words, your example build is broken? Am I missing something here?

[Aharon]

Um, no

He has access to broken stuff at 3rd level. That doesn't make him broken, if he doesn't use it. I just mentioned it because Frank doubted Artificers can be MVP at low levels. If you play in a very optimized group, you might need to pull this kind of stunt to be a valuable party member.

[Ghostwheel]

So... let's go with an extreme example. Pun-Pun. As long as he doesn't use his infinite-everything, he's not "broken" by your measurement ruler?

(Yes, yes, I know that many people think that Pun-Pun isn't rules legal. Whatever, this is just for an example. Replace with The Wish and the Word if you like, or a planar shepherd, or whatever else you think is "broken".)