Dom3: Revenge of the Den

[Zinegata]

Correction.

You saw one.

[Zinegata]

Thirdly, that the NAP between Caelum and Chelms will expire on Turn 53 as per existing arrangements.

Ok, then we kill you first. Thanks for making it clear that you're siding with double-dealing Agarthans and are not to be trusted.

Chelms is not impressed by flowery words or protestations of innocence. You make it clear that you want peace, or you don't.

[Rabelais]

I probably won't be able to get to my turn before monday night/tuesday morning. I guess a stale won't kill me, but I'd like to avoid it if possible. I'll do my best.

With regard to all the diplos, I'll get to you when I can, I may have to keep my head down for the first turn of the war just for lack of time. But if I promised to do something it will get done.

[TheNotSoEvilNecromancer]

I guess a stale won't kill me, but I'd like to avoid it if possible. I'll do my best.

But a stale will kill me (and Caelum, too, probably) so I'd like the turn extended another 24-48 hours if possible.

[Korwin]

Old: Next turn due: 07:34 GMT on Monday May 2nd
New: The game will now host at 07:34 GMT on Wednesday May 4th

[Zinegata]

I'm gonna leave my southern border open and I'm gonna throw everything at Caelum and their treacherous Abysian backers.

Fuck any pre-existing treaties. Treaties made with oath-breakers are void. I'm throwing everything at them this turn.

I don't give a shit if this means the double-dealing Agarthans win this game. Betrayal I can handle. But not "I want you to win but I'll nuke you anyway!" bullshit.

[Zinegata]

Oh, and that reminds me...

Agartha, since Caelum isn't entering this war as part of your defensive pact anyway, you are both technically entering this war as two seperate entitites and not as allies.

So feel free to teleport in and take both of Caelum's VP provinces once the Caelian army has been destroyed. You really like these treaty loopholes after all.

Chelms will not stop you.

It'd end the game much faster as you won't have to slog through the two layers of forts in the south just to get my capital. In the meantime, you can go kill TC to take VP #5.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

I'm gonna leave my southern border open and I'm gonna throw everything at Caelum and their treacherous Abysian backers.

Fuck any pre-existing treaties. Treaties made with oath-breakers are void. I'm throwing everything at them this turn.

I don't give a shit if this means the double-dealing Agarthans win this game. Betrayal I can handle. But not "I want you to win but I'll nuke you anyway!" bullshit.

As has already been stated, I'm...not happy being called an 'oathbreaker'. I've kept all of my treaties in this game, even when I could've gained a real advantage by not doing so. If you can point out some agreement with you that I've broken, please do so. If you think Agartha has broken a treaty, take it up with them. This guilt-by-association bullshit is really unnecessary.

[Zinegata]

I don't give a shit how happy you are with being called an oath-breaker.

You and Abysia had been plotting this for several turns. You're not better than the Agarthans.

I'm killing you first, and I'd even let Agartha take your corpse. Fuck the chances of winning the game.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

Seriously...did you think I would never attack you in this game? Our alliance had a very specific exit procedure (which *you* proposed), and I have followed that procedure exactly. What did you expect?

I mean yes, it's no fun to suddenly have several nations against you...but that's Dominions 3. People make alliances for reasons that seem good at the time, and then they change their alliances when there are good reasons for doing that. As long as no-one breaks their word or disregards treaties, what's the problem?

[Zinegata]

And as I stated when you asked to "exit" the alliance, this was a mistake. And now I am gonna show you why this was a mistake.

You do not fuck with the power that holds the key to letting other people win the game.

So prepare to lose any chance of winning this game, and prepare ensure that Abysia has no chance of winning this game.

You fucked with the wrong person. Again: I don't give a shit if I lose. But I'm gonna burn your country down as a stark demonstration to others not to act against your own fucking self-interest.

So last fucking chance: Back down, or I let Agartha win by making sure neither of you can win.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

And as I stated when you asked to "exit" the alliance, this was a mistake. And now I am gonna show you why this was a mistake.

So prepare to lose any chance of winning this game, and prepare ensure that Abysia has no chance of winning this game.

You fucked with the wrong person. Again: I don't give a shit if I lose. But I'm gonna burn your country down as a stark demonstration to others not to act against your own fucking self-interest.

So last chance: Back down, or I let Agartha win.

EDIT: Fuck it. I'd probably be angry too, if I was in your position. I'm not going to back down, because I've made a commitment not to, and I'm going to keep that commitment. Just like I made a commitment to give five turn's notice to you, and I've kept that commitment. I'll try to go out with a bang, rather than a whimper.

[Zinegata]

You're an idiot for thinking you cannot call off a war.

In fact, let me share you this tidbit:

The last time I talked to Abysia about their diplomatic status with Caelum, they told me point-blank that they did not have any treaty with Caelum. They only had a "truce".

So really, even if you stall me at the border, watch your back.

And really, where the fuck do you think Abysia can go? South? To Marignon and their anti-demon specialization? I pointed out to Abysia that the only way they can get more territory and resources was to go through Caelum. And they agreed.

It was against your self-interest to have made this deal to begin with. You're exposing your back to a nation that has nowhere else to go.

And it not even the "saving the world" coalition anymore because the threat to world peace for the past ten turns is fucking Agartha*. Which you are effectively allying with.

So fuck it. If you're gonna be idiots, I'm gonna help Agartha win this whether or not he wants the help. Caelum's attack on Chelms is completely pointless on every single level and against your own national interest. Enjoy being a sucker.

* Why? All stats aside (including tart production), it boils down to the fact that they already have four VP provinces, and have easy access to two more (Utgard and TC).

[Rabelais]

Since my diplomacy is being referred to I thought I woulds post the relevent excerpt:

Sent :: Message
From: Rabelais
To: Zinegata
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: World at War
Sorry this has taken so long, weekends are very difficult in terms of free time.

I would prefer you keep the contents of this message to yourself (and mari I suppose) as I am going to speak perhaps too frankly.

Your strategic analysis is correct.

Alas I am unable to attack Agartha at the moment, and since the end of my wars with Utgard and Caelum was predicated on collective actiion against you, it would be highly unseemly for me to attack them just as they actually get to fight a war for which we have been waiting a very long time.

The game needs a war. It's overdue. Even though, as you say, it will not profit me personally.

[Zinegata]

*ahem*. Second half of the message:

----

That said, I actually would rather you win than agartha, and would naturally prefer Marignon over you and myself (theoretically) most of all.

Agartha robbed us of our middlegame by dilly-dallying with TC rather than atttacking many turns ago, but while I'm not a huge fan of his, I am obliged to "help" in some way.

As long as you are reasonably well-domed I don't think you have a great deal to fear from my involvement. remotes rarely kill anything bigger than a human. I might raid a bit from time to time as my obligations demand, but my heart won't be in it, since I can't possibly keep anything.

And if you actually look like you're going to lose, I'll probably switch sides, see preference list above.

You've played a good game and deserve a good war. But what has been true before is still true now. I can't do much to you, even if I wanted to, which I don't.

I would focus on caelum and agartha if I were you, as Utgard probably can be induced to switch sides if needed to maintain balance.

Oh and I really do need the alchemist stone, what do you want for it?

-----

Yeah, Abysia totally said he wanted me to win... but he was gonna nuke me too.

Yeah, you know what, Agartha, want us to formalize our alliance again? Just promise me the Prime Minister spot when you ascend to Godhood. As dysfunctional as our relationship was it never involved this sort of BS.

[Rabelais]

I just had this PMversation with Zin. Draw your own conclusions.

<Rabelais>: what the heck is going on? why have you lost your mind, I'm genuinely confused.
<Zinegata>: I refuse to play by your teams
<Rabelais>: they arent mine.
<Zinegata>: They are now
<Zinegata>: You said point-blank that you're gonna raid and nuke me
<Zinegata>: So stop trying to wash your hands of the guilt
<Zinegata>: Every player has a _choice_. The game state changes with every turn
<Rabelais>: i can control me. not caelum, not utgard or marignon or agartha
<Zinegata>: Yes you can
<Zinegata>: Threaten to invade Caelum
<Zinegata>: If you're not lying to me that you only have a truce that is
<Rabelais>: and I assure you there is no guilt. double dealing has really been quite minimal.
<Zinegata>: And you yet evade the question
<Rabelais>: I don't want to invade caelum, and they have done nothing to merit it, your situation is hardly worse than when I had caelum and utgard gunning for me... why the snit/panic?
<Rabelais>: which question?
<Zinegata>: Do you want Agartha dead or not?
<Rabelais>: I want everyone dead but me, naturally.
<Zinegata>: And this isn't panic. This is Zine taking off the gloves
<Zinegata>: Evade the question again and I'll throw the game to Agartha. You know what I mean. You want Agartha to lose the Agarthan vs Mari/Chelmian war, yes?
<Rabelais>: I don't want them to win, a nice bloody standoff would be ideal.
<Zinegata>: There, now you're being honest
<Rabelais>: This is all obvious. I don't understand the problem. you think you stand no chance with the politics as is?
<Zinegata>: No, what I am doing is exercising my power
<Zinegata>: If I divide my forces between Agartha and Caelum, chances are it will be a stalemate
<Rabelais>: But if you exercise you power to screw the game and meta game for everyone else, you gain nothing except a bunch of people who don't want to play with you.
<Rabelais>: why the sense of grievance?
<Zinegata>: But if I am able to concentrate my power against Agartha, with Mari in support, we can break him and end his bloody double-dealings
<Zinegata>: Yes, because people need to realize that you shouldn't screw over someone who has a massive effect on the metagame
<Zinegata>: I'm pissed at Agartha for betraying me three times
<Zinegata>: And when I finally get a chance to strangle him you and Caelum come along and try to turn it into a stalemate
<Zinegata>: You know what? I don't believe in stalemates
<Zinegata>: So one way or another, I'm gonna break this game wide open
<Rabelais>: Do what you need to do. But you will lose a lot of respect your play up to now has earned you, and gain... what? Don't try to stop me, or I'll be as big a dick as possible? That's not an argument that does you any credit and will just have people killing you first in future games, insofar as you are permitted to play at all.
<Rabelais>: If you want to fuck-up agartha do so.
<Rabelais>: you can surely hold off caelum while fighting agartha. its not ideal, but vengance rarely is.
<Zinegata>: Your funeral
<Rabelais>: That's it?
<Zinegata>: These negotiations ar eover

[Zinegata]

Yes. Rabby still has delusions that I'd want to play more games with the sort of shit they're pulling.

Don't fucking attempt to blackmail me with "You'll lose player rep!" when you're siding with someone who broke an actual NAP, after spending the last three turns faking being friends.

Shit like that just makes it easier to throw the game.

[Akula]

Why doesn't everyone take about two steps back and then take a look at this situation? This is a game, please don't make me get my drama llamas.

[Rabelais]

This is classic metagame, its not even especially cutthroat, at least not from my side. I really don't understand why you think something horrible has been done to you, but you are free to fill out your turn however you wish, none of us can stop you.

As far as I can tell, i'ts you and marignon and (defensive pact?) utgard against me and agartha and caelum, with ulm and TC favoring you over agartha though unaligned. How is this even slightly unfair?

Anyone who wants to see the *entirety* of my PM's with Zin since he stopped being sane may ask, I'll send them your way.

[Zinegata]

Yes, yes, claim I'm insane when you're the one actually throwing the game.

Contratry to Abysian popular belief, I've thought this through. And me threatening to throw the game to Agartha is very much intended to force people to stop sitting on their ass.

The purpose of diplomacy isn't to get a fair deal for everyone. It's to get your strategic objectives done. War for war's sake alone is pointless.

Moreover, this is the dirty secret of the game:

Right now, the world's problem is Agartha. Not Chelms. Not Abysia. Agartha.

Becaus he has 4 VP provinces and is close to getting 2 more. Plus he's outright backstabbed people and therefore cannot be trusted. We should be forming a coalition against Agartha. Mari and I were working on it. You seemed all friendly and receptive but when push comes to shove, what happens?

Abysia allies with Agartha... Because Chelms seemed so powerful ten turns ago.

This makes zero sense for Abysia. Are you gonna gain land from it? Nope, because you don't border me. You border Marignon, which has enough anti-demon stuff to send your army packing. All it does is give Agartha a fair shot to hit 7 VPs, when what we should be doing is to prevent Agartha from gaining more VPs.

So really, don't complain about me throwing the game when you're gravely risking Abysia's (and everyone else's) shot at winning this thing.

------

Moreover, I'm gonna point out a few more minor things.

1) Marignon shares a border with Agartha and can theoretically attack the latter.

2) Agartha will attack Chelms, and can attack TC and Utgard.

3) Chelms (and maybe Utgard) can attack Caelum.

Where does that leave Abysia?

Oh, right. Abysia doesn't actually have to fight anyone directly. He can just remote attack and raid as he wishes. Which he'd been doing since Caelum and him secretly made peace many, many turns ago.

So while the world burns Abysia gets to sit on its ass. Well, maybe that was his intent in the first place. In which case you would be better served having admitted that straight out instead of claiming that you want Chelms or Marignon to win, when your true intent was to turtle while everyone else blew up each other.

Which, of course, leads back to my intent to throw the game to Agartha. Is Abysia gonna sit on its ass while Agartha moves north? Will they stand by while Chelms rips up the Caelian army?

Let's see who blinks first.

[TheNotSoEvilNecromancer]

My, my you've all been busy in my absence. It certainly has been enlightening for me as well. I think it's time I shared my side of the story so that we can all decide who we should invade en masse.

My diplomatic strategy through this game is best summarized with the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouvv6x-w1MM

In hindsight, perhaps I should have thought through my actions a bit more thoroughly...

In any case while I was finally making some progress in T'ien Ch'i I received a PM from Abysia demanding that I invade Man by turn 53 or be likewise invaded by the longstanding anti-Man coalition. That sucked as I really wanted to wait until I finished off TC before I prosecuted any foreign wars, especially with the most powerful nation currently in the game.

So I tried to solidify my alliance with Man while still keeping the Abysian coalition option open. I offered Man a post TC NAP (he had previously proposed one earlier that I avoided discussing).

Around the same turn Abysia informed me Man had hired him out to assassinate my pretender out of dominion. This enough to convince me our current agreement was already null, so I tried my luck the coalition when Abysia's ultimatum came up.

Now it seems that Abysia has pulled out in stark contrast to the action he demanded of me so recently beforehand. Poor Caelum, having received the crappy end of the stick from all involved seems to be even more screwed. Now we're stuck in a situation where the big four powers are each accusing the other (Abysia->Man, Marignon->Agartha, Agartha->Marignon, Man->Abysia and Agartha) of running away with the game.

So here's my solution. Man, you and I immediately make separate NAPs with T'ien Ch'i that end when that person has six VPs. We then make peace with one another and invade our separate halves of the map (You attack Caelum, Utgard, and Abysia; I attack Marignon and the tattered remnants of illithid controlled Ulm). Once one of us has six VPs that person invades T'ien Ch'i to claim the seventh to win.

We can call it the Treaty of Billiards with TC as our 87-ball. The rest of you can do whatever you like, fighting would probably be a good idea. I'm at least 40% serious about this.

Alternatively, the lot of you can decide who I'm at war/allied with, as I lost track around the time I invaded Gath. Sorry for breaking the world, everyone!

[Orion]

In case anyone finds it of interest, they should know that Agartha broke pact with me as well. We had a secret cease fire for several turns with no specified end condition. Finally I demanded that he publicly delcare an NAP-3 on the next turn. He agreed, then immediately invaded. He sent a message pointing out that terms of the cease-fire didn't explicitly prevent him from attacking me, which was true--but ignoring the fact that he had explicitly agreed to an NAP-3 the same turn he ordered the attack.

My power is quite limited, but I want to see Agartha go down in flames.

[TheNotSoEvilNecromancer]

I never agreed to a pact with you Orion, just that I wanted you to hold off for a turn before telling Man about our ceasefire for the moonvine bracelet from Man to go through. That the bracelet was only a side and I really just wanted you to stay put an extra turn so I could more easily invade you is another issue. Granted I did lie straight to your face, so I don't fault you for your hatred of me. I'm still waiting on the part where you abandon your northern front and attack me with everything you've got by the way. Also the Anti-Agarthan superweapon and all the other hollow threats you've directed against me since you started subbing for TC.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

This is seriously one of the most pathetic and ridiculous things I have ever seen on this forum, and I was here for fucking Elennsar.

[Zinegata]

A couple of things:

1) As far as I recall I never asked TC to assassinate your Pretender. That would have been hugely impolitic as we were officially allies at that time.

What I'm certain of is that I told Abysia and Marignon where your Pretender is, but I never directly asked them to assassinate him either. Implied that they could do it with a reasonable chance of success - yes. Actually asked them to do it? Nope.

2) Ignoring my initial NAP was a mistake, as it immediately set off alarm bells and caused me to talk to other powers about a potential anti-Agarthan alliance. (Part of these talks included sharing info about your Pretender.)

Because as TC has already pointed out, you've done a lot of backstabbing in this game and I was on the receiving end of like three of them.

3) I never agreed to invade Agartha by Turn 53 specifically. Began drafting war plans - yes. Actually all set to invade - no. The forces aren't even aimed at Agartha yet.

I was, as I told you, okay with the original terms which was "NAP ends once TC is dead", which I intended to honor as I realized it offered me more flexibility anyway. And if you'd notice, I hadn't invaded the TC capital at all yet.

-------------

This "Treaty of Billards" is, shockingly enough, more consistent with Chelmian national interests. If one can't destroy Agartha before they hit 7 VPs, might as well race them to it. Especially if Agartha has to fight Marignon to get those last 2 VPs.

There's a reason Chelms did not DoW Agartha every time we were betrayed.

However, Chelms has no desire to destroy Utgard.

Our desire to destroy Caelum is much muted if they were just dragged into this.

And TC does not want a NAP with Agartha anyway.

And on top of all that there's this tiny problem called "trust".

But as I said, at the very least, it's consistent with Chelmian national interest.

So if people have anything to add, want to give a counter-proposal, or have more dirty laundry to air, you'd better lay it all out on the table now or else I'm tempted to start much more serious peace talks with Agartha.

And yes, I'd seriously talk peace with the Agarthans if his assertion that they were forced into war by Abysia is true.

Maybe another extension is in order?

-------------

Also, can we finally figure out who the hell Winter Wolved Abysia?