Shit, meant Abysia.Zinegata wrote:1) As far as I recall I never asked TC to assassinate your Pretender. That would have been hugely impolitic as we were officially allies at that time.
Dom3: Revenge of the Den
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TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Gnosticism Is A Hoot
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TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Actually, in light of said fuckup, my rather place at the nucleus of it, the untrustworthy reputation I've engendered over the course of the game as a result of my schizophrenic diplomacy, and the fact that folks are already calling for further turn extensions anyway I think I'll take this opportunity to bow out and ask a sub take my place. Maybe someone new will be able to salvage things for Agartha, give them a blank slate.
Korwin, if you want to trade up from Ulm I wouldn't be opposed to you taking charge. I can already see all of your territory anyway so it's not like you'll be bringing any major intelligence when you take over for me.
K would also be alright, I feel bad for being like the fourth consecutive power to siege his capital.
Failing all that you folks could always post a message on shrapnel.
Feel free to write it off as anything from an election defeat of Norag Redevad Stark or a bloody coup.
Korwin, if you want to trade up from Ulm I wouldn't be opposed to you taking charge. I can already see all of your territory anyway so it's not like you'll be bringing any major intelligence when you take over for me.
K would also be alright, I feel bad for being like the fourth consecutive power to siege his capital.
Failing all that you folks could always post a message on shrapnel.
Feel free to write it off as anything from an election defeat of Norag Redevad Stark or a bloody coup.
Last edited by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer on Tue May 03, 2011 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pardon me for wanting a relatively balanced world war before Late Lategame. We should rename this game TurtleTime. Or perhaps VultureTime.
And I wasn't pulling out, Necro, ironically my response to Zin's offer to join his anti-agartha squad (which apparently started this whole thing) was intended to reassure him that he wasn't in fact being lynched and it was going to be a good fun war.
Obviously any world war has to have you and chelms and me and mari on opposite sides. I actually thought Utgard would come in with us, so as it actually fell out was better for Man than projected.
Whatever. Let's just all set to AI, since clearly no one is willing to fight except at obscene advantage. This game has been way too much work anyway.
And I wasn't pulling out, Necro, ironically my response to Zin's offer to join his anti-agartha squad (which apparently started this whole thing) was intended to reassure him that he wasn't in fact being lynched and it was going to be a good fun war.
Obviously any world war has to have you and chelms and me and mari on opposite sides. I actually thought Utgard would come in with us, so as it actually fell out was better for Man than projected.
Whatever. Let's just all set to AI, since clearly no one is willing to fight except at obscene advantage. This game has been way too much work anyway.
Last edited by Rabelais on Tue May 03, 2011 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And pardon me for saying "bullshit" to your "balanced war" or "good fun war" when you were off pretending to be part of the anti-Agarthan squad when we were discussing things with Akula. Including rather pertinent things like say, our battle plans against Agartha.
Battle plans that you passed to Agartha in order to get them to attack me. A claim made by Agartha that you conveniently failed to deny.
That's not trying to have a good balanced war. That's called double dealing.
So stop pretending that you weren't off trying to sleeze your way to victory. You were playing both sides. You were giving our battle plans over to the Agarthans.
Claiming that you want a "balanced war" is just you covering up the fact that you tried to play both sides and lost because I called bullshit.
So fuck you and your veiled insults that nobody here wants to fight a fair war. You weren't planning on one either. Not to mention the gross stupidity of arranging a "fair" war in the first place.
Everyone wants peace. But they want peace on their terms.
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Moreover...
I am totally not ashamed to continue playing this game.
I don't have anything to hide, I don't negotiate in bad faith. And when I have to break off an agreement because something came up, I tell them straight up instead of giving stupid platitudes like "But I want you to win anyway!".
Oh, and that threat to throw the game to Agartha? I would have gone to Caelum even if I had not suspected backstabbing anyway, because it was the tactically sound thing to do. I had even explained this to Abysia in one of our battle plan sessions. He of all people should have known that there was no way Agartha could win quickly against me because of my interlocking fort and magister defense network.
And that "Agartha drops on Caelum's VP provinces" thing? We discussed that too and had even planned contingencies for Abysian "intervention" at Atlantis and Chelmian one at Caelum to prevent this possibility.
In short, I simply gave the worse case scenario of stuff I was planning to do (or had planned for) anyway. Stuff that Abysia already knew. Because a little arm-twisting is needed when people aren't being square.
But hey, Abysia was too focused trying to present me as crazy to realize that such threats are often the only way to untangle webs of secret alliances and figure out who's truly square, and who's double-dealing.
Battle plans that you passed to Agartha in order to get them to attack me. A claim made by Agartha that you conveniently failed to deny.
That's not trying to have a good balanced war. That's called double dealing.
So stop pretending that you weren't off trying to sleeze your way to victory. You were playing both sides. You were giving our battle plans over to the Agarthans.
Claiming that you want a "balanced war" is just you covering up the fact that you tried to play both sides and lost because I called bullshit.
So fuck you and your veiled insults that nobody here wants to fight a fair war. You weren't planning on one either. Not to mention the gross stupidity of arranging a "fair" war in the first place.
Everyone wants peace. But they want peace on their terms.
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Moreover...
I am totally not ashamed to continue playing this game.
I don't have anything to hide, I don't negotiate in bad faith. And when I have to break off an agreement because something came up, I tell them straight up instead of giving stupid platitudes like "But I want you to win anyway!".
Oh, and that threat to throw the game to Agartha? I would have gone to Caelum even if I had not suspected backstabbing anyway, because it was the tactically sound thing to do. I had even explained this to Abysia in one of our battle plan sessions. He of all people should have known that there was no way Agartha could win quickly against me because of my interlocking fort and magister defense network.
And that "Agartha drops on Caelum's VP provinces" thing? We discussed that too and had even planned contingencies for Abysian "intervention" at Atlantis and Chelmian one at Caelum to prevent this possibility.
In short, I simply gave the worse case scenario of stuff I was planning to do (or had planned for) anyway. Stuff that Abysia already knew. Because a little arm-twisting is needed when people aren't being square.
But hey, Abysia was too focused trying to present me as crazy to realize that such threats are often the only way to untangle webs of secret alliances and figure out who's truly square, and who's double-dealing.
Last edited by Zinegata on Tue May 03, 2011 2:34 pm, edited 7 times in total.
No. The deal was not that you would announce the ceasefire; it was that you would declare peace. There's no difference between breaking a treaty and breaking a promise to make a treaty.TheNotSoEvilNecromancer wrote:I never agreed to a pact with you Orion, just that I wanted you to hold off for a turn before telling Man about our ceasefire for the moonvine bracelet from Man to go through. That the bracelet was only a side and I really just wanted you to stay put an extra turn so I could more easily invade you is another issue. Granted I did lie straight to your face, so I don't fault you for your hatred of me. I'm still waiting on the part where you abandon your northern front and attack me with everything you've got by the way. Also the Anti-Agarthan superweapon and all the other hollow threats you've directed against me since you started subbing for TC.
Since there's a lot of talk about metagames and shit, I wanna say that I have nothing against you personally. TC got betrayed by Agartha, and TC wants revenge, but I would happily play another game with you.
I gave nothing to the Agarthans other than that you kept sending me little notes every time his pretender was OoD. Which is true. While I assume you would have declared on me if I had somehow killed Agarthas pretender with the info you gave me, (Your *ally*) I didn't accuse you of anything, Agartha drew his own conclusions.
I broke no agreements, nor did I negotiate in bad faith. Planning to prevent someone from blitz winning the game is only rational. I had sent notice to caelum before we talked that if Agartha got TC's cap, I would like access to Atlantis to prevent a gatecleaver airdrop. It's a big duh.
That I wanted you and agartha to fight is no secret, given the imbalance created by the ermorian wasteland, it is the only way anyone in the west has a chance in hell.
This a war game, but it has had no wars. Everyone is bored out of their skulls.
But sure, I'm some huge asshole for ... what? Not letting you have a 2 on 1 with Agartha that screws me hard? Bullying Agartha into making a choice so we can get on with the damn game?
The entire middlegame was lost in the west waiting for this war. And it looked like it was going to be fun, which is what I said.
Even if you regard marshalling the west as somehow icky, *You* picked me for that when you made me the big bad, to distract from your graphs. Given the dynamics in the east with TWO very powerful nations I can't reach with their thumbs up their butts, I felt I had no choice. And I'd do it again. Because this has been really very tedious.
Explain to me how you have been victimized again? You have a massive graphs lead for most of the game, claim publically to have forged all the artifacts, and then are *shocked* that collective action is taken to oppose you. Boo Hoo.
On top of which the actual array of forces in the war is fairly even, and I think slightly favors you. Again, I don't see what the problem is, other than you don't like it when people don't do what you want, or discovering you aren't the diplowizard you thought you were.
This is not the game for you, if you can't handle less than perfect control and fairness. No one gets out alive, it's the Dominions way.
I broke no agreements, nor did I negotiate in bad faith. Planning to prevent someone from blitz winning the game is only rational. I had sent notice to caelum before we talked that if Agartha got TC's cap, I would like access to Atlantis to prevent a gatecleaver airdrop. It's a big duh.
That I wanted you and agartha to fight is no secret, given the imbalance created by the ermorian wasteland, it is the only way anyone in the west has a chance in hell.
This a war game, but it has had no wars. Everyone is bored out of their skulls.
But sure, I'm some huge asshole for ... what? Not letting you have a 2 on 1 with Agartha that screws me hard? Bullying Agartha into making a choice so we can get on with the damn game?
The entire middlegame was lost in the west waiting for this war. And it looked like it was going to be fun, which is what I said.
Even if you regard marshalling the west as somehow icky, *You* picked me for that when you made me the big bad, to distract from your graphs. Given the dynamics in the east with TWO very powerful nations I can't reach with their thumbs up their butts, I felt I had no choice. And I'd do it again. Because this has been really very tedious.
Explain to me how you have been victimized again? You have a massive graphs lead for most of the game, claim publically to have forged all the artifacts, and then are *shocked* that collective action is taken to oppose you. Boo Hoo.
On top of which the actual array of forces in the war is fairly even, and I think slightly favors you. Again, I don't see what the problem is, other than you don't like it when people don't do what you want, or discovering you aren't the diplowizard you thought you were.
This is not the game for you, if you can't handle less than perfect control and fairness. No one gets out alive, it's the Dominions way.
Last edited by Rabelais on Tue May 03, 2011 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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So much for self induced exile solving everything, oh well. In any case the majority of diplomacy is fucked at the moment, but what I do know for certain is that Ulm has no where to go but through me and T'ien Ch'i wants to see Agartha burn. I'm devoting effort to clearing up these problems until someone gives me reason to look elsewhere.
Oh really? And yet why are the Agarthans claiming that you gave them an ultimatum to attack by Turn 53? Conveniently, this was also the date when Caelum's NAP would expire, and it was also conveniently the date when Mari and I would reach one of our milestones (in terms of resource-gathering) for the anti-Agarthan war plan?Rabelais wrote:I gave nothing to the Agarthans other than that you kept sending me little notes every time his pretender was OoD. Which is true. While I assume you would have declared on me if I had somehow killed Agarthas pretender with the info you gave me, (Your *ally*) I didn't accuse you of anything, Agartha drew his own conclusions.
Moreover, my alliance with Agartha was strictly against TC. That's the entire reason why I was okay with giving information to two powers who apparently wanted to hit Agartha. TC can attest that I never shared to them any pertinent information, because I'm not a two-faced negotiator who's secretly slipping information to our intended enemy.
Heck, you even asked how Agartha's Pretender was kitted. So really, stop pretending that you didn't pretend to show that you were interested in killing Agartha's Pretender.
You know what? You've got it. Except that the option I'm gonna explore is Agartha and Chelms fucking the rest of the world.I broke no agreements, nor did I negotiate in bad faith. Planning to prevent someone from blitz winning the game is only rational. I had sent notice to caelum before we talked that if Agartha got TC's cap, I would like access to Atlantis to prevent a gatecleaver airdrop. It's a big duh.
That I wanted you and agartha to fight is no secret, given the imbalance created by the ermorian wasteland, it is the only way anyone in the west has a chance in hell.
This a war game, but it has had no wars. Everyone is bored out of their skulls.
Your line of reasoning is a pile of BS born out of a desperate attempt to cover up the fact that you were double dealing the whole time.
Stop playing the victim card. All it does is to demonstrate that you orchestrated thie war not to let everyone have a "good, fun, war", but because you're acting out of spite.Even if you regard marshalling the west as somehow icky, *You* picked me for that when you made me the big bad, to distract from your graphs.
You invaded Utgard. Without consulting the international community. That's why you got a coalition formed against you.
And really, since it's been ages since that coalition, I may as well say it: I never actually formed the coalition on my own. I merely suggested to Utgard that he ask Caelum for help. Utgard liked this idea very much and PM's Caelum. And I sent them both assurances that I would not invade them if they did go to war with Abysia, and would even loan them support.
But when Utgard and Caelum sealed the deal I wasn't even in the room.
You were a threat to both of their existences. And if I was a backstabbing asshole I could have just invaded them both while they were busy with you. But I didn't. Not even when Caelum was empty of troops after you wiped out their army.
I'm not claiming to be victimized. I'm saying you're an asshole for claiming what you want is a "good fun war", when you engaged in treachery on a worse level than the Agarthans, are motivated by spite rather than strategic sense,Explain to me how you have been victimized again? You have a massive graphs lead for most of the game, claim publically to have forged all the artifacts, and then are *shocked* that collective action is taken to oppose you. Boo Hoo.
Besides... I have never claimed publically to have all the artifacts. In fact, you know damn well that other people had artifacts. Because I shared that information with you.
The fact is, we gave you information. To stop you stupid paranoid delusions that Chelms somehow had a massive under-the-table lead.
Agartha may be double-dealing bastards, but they at least admit to being double-dealing bastards. You're still hiding behind "I did it only for the good of the game!".
I can handle less than perfect control. But what I don't like are assholes who claim to be doing things only for "the good of the game" when you were in fact just being a spiteful toad.This is not the game for you, if you can't handle less than perfect control and fairness. No one gets out alive, it's the Dominions way.
The reason you're actually whining is because your grand "Spite Chelms" coalition fell apart. Because:
1) You based it on fake evidence to goad Agartha into going to war.
2) You are forcing several nations to go against their own national interest.
3) You were stupid enough to claim that all this was for the good of the game when you were in fact just BSing everyone.
The anti-Abysian coalition fell apart because you won the war, not because it was strategically unsound.
This coalition is falling apart even before it got off the ground because when you get right down to it, the root of this diplomatic clusterfuck isn't Chelms threatening to throw the game. The root of this clusterfuck is that Abysia lied to the rest of the world. All to satisfy their senseless need for venegance
Last edited by Zinegata on Wed May 04, 2011 1:43 am, edited 4 times in total.
Wow. Just wow.
Necromancer: Just noticed your intention to leave the game. For the record, I hope you stay. You played well against me, and I want to see how you do against others. Plus, I want to test my superweapon once on my way out. I haven't fought you yet despite my threats because you turned out to be way more powerful than I'd realized, but now I'm ready to at least do some damage.
Zine: I still don't understand the part where you want to throw the game to Agartha. In your latest post you're telling Rabelais that his coalition broke up. Can't you fight your remaining enemies?
Necromancer: Just noticed your intention to leave the game. For the record, I hope you stay. You played well against me, and I want to see how you do against others. Plus, I want to test my superweapon once on my way out. I haven't fought you yet despite my threats because you turned out to be way more powerful than I'd realized, but now I'm ready to at least do some damage.
Zine: I still don't understand the part where you want to throw the game to Agartha. In your latest post you're telling Rabelais that his coalition broke up. Can't you fight your remaining enemies?
Wow. Fucking serious. This? This is what we put another 24 hours on the timer for? This is why I still cannot play my turn as I don't know what I need to do? I don't know what the fuck to say. I still recommend taking two steps back, but I really have no patience to here any more ranting about who broke what agreement.
Ya'll are whining like a bunch of 5 year olds. I hear little kids like petting zoos, do you want to pet all the pretty drama llamas?
They are so cute. And look, you guys have a whole herd.
Ya'll are whining like a bunch of 5 year olds. I hear little kids like petting zoos, do you want to pet all the pretty drama llamas?
They are so cute. And look, you guys have a whole herd.
First of all, game state.Orion wrote:Zine: I still don't understand the part where you want to throw the game to Agartha. In your latest post you're telling Rabelais that his coalition broke up. Can't you fight your remaining enemies?
Rabby wanted the war to go something like this:
Side A:
- Chelms
- Marignon
- Utgard
- TC
Side B:
- Caelum
- Abysia
- Agartha
That grouping is pretty much gone as Agartha has backed out of Side B.
So yes, these groupings are pretty much dead.
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Secondly...
The question should never be "Can't you fight your remaining enemies?". The question should always be "Who is the enemy?" and "Why am I fighting him?"
Threatening to throw the game was meant to force Abysia's hand and open a can of worms. Because Abysia had been chummying with me and Marignon for the past couple of turns, claiming to want Agartha dead. And yet on the eve of war, they suddenly tell me "I want you to win but I'm nuking you too!"
And threatening to do that did lead to everyone to air their dirty laundry.
And it turns out Abysia was lying the whole time. They were the ones behind Agartha's sneak attack on Chelms.
So really, explain to me: Why should I beat up Caelum when they're just being lead on by Abysia?
Why should I kill Agartha? Well, okay, that's a bad question because Agartha has done terrible, terrible things and that makes me want to strangle them. But as far as this current betrayal goes they're actually not the one who initiated this crisis.
Really, the only one who actively wants this war is Abysia, and apparently it's because they just want payback for the early game.
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So, anyway, Chelm's current position:
1) Chelms is friends with Utgard and refuses to invade them.
2) Chelms is adamant that TC's victory province must not fall into Agarthan hands. Therefore we would frown upon an Agarthan invasion of TC's capital.
3) Chelms is not hostile to Caelum. But if they attack, we will attack them first if we are facing multiple enemies. It's the tactically sound thing to do.
4) Chelms would like to pursue a white peace with Agartha and a return to pre-existing borders.
5) Chelms will respond to Abysian use of remote attacks in kind, and we will burn their outpost in what is rightfully Utgard/Caelian territory the moment the nukes fly.
6) Chelms would like to continue existing informal trade agreements with Marignon
That is all *fondles drama llama for the last time*
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TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Done. Pulling out of Gryphon Spires.Zinegata wrote: 4) Chelms would like to pursue a white peace with Agartha and a return to pre-existing borders.
Last edited by TheNotSoEvilNecromancer on Wed May 04, 2011 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
I didn't offer to let you keep your capital. I said we were against Agartha having your capital. 
We were still technically at war before this whole diplo clusterfuck you realize. And your adamant refusal to give any peace offer kinda leaves me not entirely sure if you can be trusted.
Also, re Utgard/Caelum - I'm making it their choice. If Caelum wants to commit suicide, it's up to them.
We were still technically at war before this whole diplo clusterfuck you realize. And your adamant refusal to give any peace offer kinda leaves me not entirely sure if you can be trusted
.Also, re Utgard/Caelum - I'm making it their choice. If Caelum wants to commit suicide, it's up to them.
Last edited by Zinegata on Wed May 04, 2011 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
Added time for moar drama.
Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
I rarely lie, I cheat even less often.
To the best of my knowledge I have lied not at all, and cheated only very slightly in this particular game.
I often fail to correct other people's false assumptions.
Zin's recollection of events is conspicuously incorrect, but I'm not going to go another round. I did force agartha to make a choice. And the game would have been better for it if it had worked, imho.
My motivations were *entirely* strategic. No spite. Spite for what?
Agartha was more diplomatically irritating than chelms, i think everyone will agree .
To the best of my knowledge I have lied not at all, and cheated only very slightly in this particular game.
I often fail to correct other people's false assumptions.
Zin's recollection of events is conspicuously incorrect, but I'm not going to go another round. I did force agartha to make a choice. And the game would have been better for it if it had worked, imho.
My motivations were *entirely* strategic. No spite. Spite for what?
Agartha was more diplomatically irritating than chelms, i think everyone will agree .
Last edited by Rabelais on Wed May 04, 2011 3:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
This is going to be a faiirly long post so bear with me if you will.
I've put enough work into this game that I really want to put down on paper what this was all about from my point of view.
I've been annoyed that all of our collective plans for the last godknowshowmanyturns have come to nought.
I got to thinking, why did the coalition collapse?
And then I realized I was making the same mistake some of you may be making now. I was taking Chelms word for it.
The game has been stuck for quite a while, having three main problems.
1. no one is willing to fight chelms one on one
2. the east has more power and better infrastructure than the west due to Ermor's income destruction effects.
3. The major powers in the east and west can't really reach each other because the (relatively) minor powers are in between, and we don't really want to alienate those minors as they could turn out to be critical to any attempt to shift the balance.
add to this the everpresent fourth and fifth awkward truths....
4. Turtling is very profitable in vanilla, so the longer we waited the harder it was going to be to bring down the leaders.
5. In the absence of collective action warfare generally makes the strong stronger and the weak weaker. (i.e. the battle is not always to the strong, but that's the way to bet.) As an example look at what Chelms and Agartha have done to TC.
I came up with the strategy I did in an attempt to address each of these issues.
1.Everyone fights chelms= we can fight chelms
2. Agartha would take the brunt of the fighting, and would receive most of the spoils, but would not have the large time factor chelms has banked to multiply their power with those spoils. So the East is weakened collectively, even though Agartha is strengthened. So its not a bum deal for him at all, and less risky than having to fight Chelms unsupported.
3. By the same token, hopefully Caelum and Utgard picked up some real estate, and since Marignon was potentially on Chelms side, (he has no access to chelms and potentially some to Agartha) maybe they picked up some water or got other cast offs. either way its good for the west and for balance.
Now of course if Caelum or Utgard get annihilated, that's not great, but they can't really hope to fight anyone but each other without some help, so being part of a winning coalition and/or having some fun on the way out is the best they can expect to do. And this gave them reasonable shots at both.
4. becomes moot because turtling would not be cost-effective in a world war.
5. The balance of power was carefully arranged so as to disadvantage those who were winning. Which is good for .... everyone else.
Now these strategic considerations still apply, so I'm not sure why the plan won't work. Sure it's out in the open, but how does that make it less valid a plan?
When Chelms told me he had the support of Marignon and Utgard I was surprised, but I didn't cry foul, as I figured it would make for a more interesting war without fundamentally altering its effects and rationale. And let's face it we were all bored with the status quo.
Particularly as Agartha was going to benefit from Chelms "throwing the game" to them in a hissy fit, I find it surprising that he wouldn't be eager to go forward.
Those of you who were in the coalition know that I didn't lie or deceive you and was very open about what was happening and why. Chelms had a massive lead at the time the coalition formed, was the only one with artifacts, as far as we knew, and later publically claimed he had "cleaned out" the artifacts. (This turned out to be a lie designed to prevent others from investing in Con8, but that is neither here nor there) We felt this was our only option.
It's true that I strong-armed Agartha at the end, but that was because they were very late to the party, and it wasn't going to really start without them. But I didn't lie to or deceive them either. I just gave them an unpleasant choice. If Necro had made the other choice I would have gone to chelms to offer him coalition support in a collective war against Agartha and we would have done the same thing but reversed, and you KNOW chelms would have jumped at it because the root of his hissy fit was that he wasn't just going to be allowed to team with marignon to destroy solitary Agartha, (which if you count Ulm and TC would have been a 4 on 1) This he very much wanted to do, even before the "sneak" attack.
If anyone thinks I have lied to or deceived them please post it here in this thread so I can explain and/or be shamed. Or send me a PM if for some reason the thread isn't appropriate.
It's true that Chelms claims I lied to and or deceived him, but he is either lying or wrong, on a case by case basis. And it must be pointed out that he was the object of the conspiracy, so his surprise at the variety of things he wasn't aware of or didn't know is to be expected. Akula was present for almost all of our chats and will verify I didn't do anything particularly deceptive. (At least I hope he will.)
Mostly this is because it was unnecessary, but also because we might have needed chelms if agartha had decided not to join up.
Now, the one concrete thing Zin has accused me of is lying to Agartha about his having repeatedly sent me notes telling me when Agartha's nominally immortal pretender was Out of Dominion and therefore Mortal.
So let's talk about that.
He sent me notes (I think Akula was present on IRC for at least one of these) twice and I didn't particularly comment, except to say that horrors couldn't kill a SC pretender with air magic because they are immune to fear and horrors have no elemental resistances.
The third time I happened to have a scout in the province and therefore could independently verify what he told me, which would speak to his true intention.
So I asked him how the pretender was kitted. Again, I didn't need to know for corroborative detail if I was going to rat him out to Necro, as I had the scout.
He told me: Elemental armor, anti-magic amulet, no golems.
Now think about this. I didn't ask about golems. So why would he include that information if it were not operationally relevant to his goal, which was obviously his hope that I would kill said pretender.
Interestingly The pretender had on a luck amulet, not an ama, and a full kit otherwise as well, which Zin did not mention, (As you all know, Immortal pretenders are often very lightly geared as you lose the equipment when they die, so the rest of the kit was not implied and this was a very serious omission.)
Which led me to believe that not only did he want me to try to assassinate the pretender, but he didn't particularly mind if I failed, presumably so he could declare on me for attacking his ally. Sneaky git.
So I reported just the fact of the notes to Necro, who claimed to be shocked and disturbed to the point of enthusiastically agreeing to attack Chelms.
I have a map Necro sent me with hand annotations and scouting data for Chelm's provinces. He went from being dragged into this to leading the charge. Which is fine and to his credit.
But I did not lie, and if I did anything underhanded, it paled in comparison to Chelms behavior. Add this to Chelms becoming hysterical and threatening to ruin the game for all of us because caelum looked like he might attack at a time Chelms thought inconvenient, relative to the gang beatdown he intended for Agartha, and you can see why I might think Chelms is in the wrong, in just about every conceivable way.
So, it may be that everyone has been busy making other plans, but I'm fairly confident they are worse plans than the one I have, at least for people who aren't Chelms.
That's all I have to say.
I was trying to fix what was boring and broken about this particular game on this particular map while making it less obvious who would ultimately win, (which I admit, given my current spot at #4 would have been good for me) AND we would get to fight, before we finished research, heaven forfend.
This channel may now return to Chelm's hysterical accusations, spoiler threats, whines, lies, and hypocritical invocation of strategic self-interest and my alleged lack of regard for it in others.
I will be turtling over here. With my finger on the astral corruption button if anyone so much as burps in my direction. Good luck making and implementing your own plans.
Or send me a note if you are still interested. I won't tell.
I've put enough work into this game that I really want to put down on paper what this was all about from my point of view.
I've been annoyed that all of our collective plans for the last godknowshowmanyturns have come to nought.
I got to thinking, why did the coalition collapse?
And then I realized I was making the same mistake some of you may be making now. I was taking Chelms word for it.
The game has been stuck for quite a while, having three main problems.
1. no one is willing to fight chelms one on one
2. the east has more power and better infrastructure than the west due to Ermor's income destruction effects.
3. The major powers in the east and west can't really reach each other because the (relatively) minor powers are in between, and we don't really want to alienate those minors as they could turn out to be critical to any attempt to shift the balance.
add to this the everpresent fourth and fifth awkward truths....
4. Turtling is very profitable in vanilla, so the longer we waited the harder it was going to be to bring down the leaders.
5. In the absence of collective action warfare generally makes the strong stronger and the weak weaker. (i.e. the battle is not always to the strong, but that's the way to bet.) As an example look at what Chelms and Agartha have done to TC.
I came up with the strategy I did in an attempt to address each of these issues.
1.Everyone fights chelms= we can fight chelms
2. Agartha would take the brunt of the fighting, and would receive most of the spoils, but would not have the large time factor chelms has banked to multiply their power with those spoils. So the East is weakened collectively, even though Agartha is strengthened. So its not a bum deal for him at all, and less risky than having to fight Chelms unsupported.
3. By the same token, hopefully Caelum and Utgard picked up some real estate, and since Marignon was potentially on Chelms side, (he has no access to chelms and potentially some to Agartha) maybe they picked up some water or got other cast offs. either way its good for the west and for balance.
Now of course if Caelum or Utgard get annihilated, that's not great, but they can't really hope to fight anyone but each other without some help, so being part of a winning coalition and/or having some fun on the way out is the best they can expect to do. And this gave them reasonable shots at both.
4. becomes moot because turtling would not be cost-effective in a world war.
5. The balance of power was carefully arranged so as to disadvantage those who were winning. Which is good for .... everyone else.
Now these strategic considerations still apply, so I'm not sure why the plan won't work. Sure it's out in the open, but how does that make it less valid a plan?
When Chelms told me he had the support of Marignon and Utgard I was surprised, but I didn't cry foul, as I figured it would make for a more interesting war without fundamentally altering its effects and rationale. And let's face it we were all bored with the status quo.
Particularly as Agartha was going to benefit from Chelms "throwing the game" to them in a hissy fit, I find it surprising that he wouldn't be eager to go forward.
Those of you who were in the coalition know that I didn't lie or deceive you and was very open about what was happening and why. Chelms had a massive lead at the time the coalition formed, was the only one with artifacts, as far as we knew, and later publically claimed he had "cleaned out" the artifacts. (This turned out to be a lie designed to prevent others from investing in Con8, but that is neither here nor there) We felt this was our only option.
It's true that I strong-armed Agartha at the end, but that was because they were very late to the party, and it wasn't going to really start without them. But I didn't lie to or deceive them either. I just gave them an unpleasant choice. If Necro had made the other choice I would have gone to chelms to offer him coalition support in a collective war against Agartha and we would have done the same thing but reversed, and you KNOW chelms would have jumped at it because the root of his hissy fit was that he wasn't just going to be allowed to team with marignon to destroy solitary Agartha, (which if you count Ulm and TC would have been a 4 on 1) This he very much wanted to do, even before the "sneak" attack.
If anyone thinks I have lied to or deceived them please post it here in this thread so I can explain and/or be shamed. Or send me a PM if for some reason the thread isn't appropriate.
It's true that Chelms claims I lied to and or deceived him, but he is either lying or wrong, on a case by case basis. And it must be pointed out that he was the object of the conspiracy, so his surprise at the variety of things he wasn't aware of or didn't know is to be expected. Akula was present for almost all of our chats and will verify I didn't do anything particularly deceptive. (At least I hope he will.)
Mostly this is because it was unnecessary, but also because we might have needed chelms if agartha had decided not to join up.
Now, the one concrete thing Zin has accused me of is lying to Agartha about his having repeatedly sent me notes telling me when Agartha's nominally immortal pretender was Out of Dominion and therefore Mortal.
So let's talk about that.
He sent me notes (I think Akula was present on IRC for at least one of these) twice and I didn't particularly comment, except to say that horrors couldn't kill a SC pretender with air magic because they are immune to fear and horrors have no elemental resistances.
The third time I happened to have a scout in the province and therefore could independently verify what he told me, which would speak to his true intention.
So I asked him how the pretender was kitted. Again, I didn't need to know for corroborative detail if I was going to rat him out to Necro, as I had the scout.
He told me: Elemental armor, anti-magic amulet, no golems.
Now think about this. I didn't ask about golems. So why would he include that information if it were not operationally relevant to his goal, which was obviously his hope that I would kill said pretender.
Interestingly The pretender had on a luck amulet, not an ama, and a full kit otherwise as well, which Zin did not mention, (As you all know, Immortal pretenders are often very lightly geared as you lose the equipment when they die, so the rest of the kit was not implied and this was a very serious omission.)
Which led me to believe that not only did he want me to try to assassinate the pretender, but he didn't particularly mind if I failed, presumably so he could declare on me for attacking his ally. Sneaky git.
So I reported just the fact of the notes to Necro, who claimed to be shocked and disturbed to the point of enthusiastically agreeing to attack Chelms.
I have a map Necro sent me with hand annotations and scouting data for Chelm's provinces. He went from being dragged into this to leading the charge. Which is fine and to his credit.
But I did not lie, and if I did anything underhanded, it paled in comparison to Chelms behavior. Add this to Chelms becoming hysterical and threatening to ruin the game for all of us because caelum looked like he might attack at a time Chelms thought inconvenient, relative to the gang beatdown he intended for Agartha, and you can see why I might think Chelms is in the wrong, in just about every conceivable way.
So, it may be that everyone has been busy making other plans, but I'm fairly confident they are worse plans than the one I have, at least for people who aren't Chelms.
That's all I have to say.
I was trying to fix what was boring and broken about this particular game on this particular map while making it less obvious who would ultimately win, (which I admit, given my current spot at #4 would have been good for me) AND we would get to fight, before we finished research, heaven forfend.
This channel may now return to Chelm's hysterical accusations, spoiler threats, whines, lies, and hypocritical invocation of strategic self-interest and my alleged lack of regard for it in others.
I will be turtling over here. With my finger on the astral corruption button if anyone so much as burps in my direction. Good luck making and implementing your own plans.
Or send me a note if you are still interested. I won't tell.
Yes, yes, says the whiny bitch who went "Let's all just go AI!" the moment his coalition fell apart because it was based on lies and deciet. Boohoo.
You know what, since Rabelais wants to continue being a lying shit instead of just manning up to the fact that he was a double-dealing asshole who pretended to be in the anti-Agarthan camp, and yet gave pertinent information to the Agarthans (instead of this sequence of BS that he's now peddling), let's make the game interesting.
I'm offering Agartha a long-term alliance. If they accept, all deals with Marignon are off and I will simply shrug if Agartha beats the crap out of Marignon. It's much more strategically sound anyway, and it simplifies things for me on the diplo front.
Besides, it also pretty much screws Abysia's only remaining friend in the game.
Deals with Caelum and Utgard will be honored if they accept. The deal already finalized with TC will be honored.
So really Rabby, start playing chicken with MOAR DRAMA. Because I have more devious counter-plans in mind. Like resurrecinting the long-dead Gathians to destroy Agartha once and for all!
Last edited by Zinegata on Thu May 05, 2011 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total.