Kaelik wrote:
Here's the thing though that's wrong. First of all, WoF deals with utility powers shittily, since you have to either create a completely different system for implementing them, or tell everyone to suck a cock (restrict access in an arbitrary stupid way, and also take up WoF cells). Secondly, at will can actually have 6 combat options, and an absurd number of utility powers.
1) Mind telling me why it's so important for your full suite of utility powers to always be available whenever you want?
2) I gave a proposed method on how to combat this problem in one of my posts. Feel free to read it.
3) "At-Will can actually have 6 combat options, and an absurd number of utility powers", this is an absurd oversimplification. Let's go back to 4E for a moment. There are basically 3 kinds of utility powers in that game:
- Utility powers that supplement some kind of combat action. These do not create in-combat option paralysis because they don't displace any choices mostly because they operate at some kind of action advantage. Sword Burst vs. Lightning Lure requires some thought. SB/LL/Greenflame Blade even more. SB/LL/Greenflame Blade + a minor action utility power does not. You ignore it until you make your primary choice and then tack it on to the end.
- Utility powers that do not help out in combat. These do not create in-combat option paralysis because you can just totally ignore them when the combat music is playing.
- Utility powers that can potentially displace a combat action. Wall of Fog, Illusory Wall, Wall of Force, etc.. These operate at the same action cost as the nominal attack powers and if they're not full of ass (there are a lot of bupkiss standard action combat utility powers, but no one takes those) then you need to consider those in addition to said combat powers.
So no, it's not clear that a system can support At Wills + X number of utility powers. 4E Rangers are simple to run even after HotFL because their utility powers do not conflict with their general combat scheme. 4E Wizards are difficult to run because their utility powers can compete with their combat powers.
Now the 'obvious' solution to this would be to make utility powers operate like the 4E Ranger so people only have 6 At-Wills to really choose from and the utility power selection is actually really obvious. The problem with this is that you have to make utility powers
really boring and lame. You can't have shit like Transmute Stone to Mud or Warp Wood because otherwise people are going to find ways to use it in combat--and of course the higher the level a utility power is the easier it is to find unintended combat uses for it. Now you might be saying 'don't these players deserve a little reward', but then you're right back to the option paralysis problem.
PhoneLobster wrote:
2) When that kind of tactical depth was brought up in prior discussions as an alternative means of creating variety in combat Lago and Frank told us that it was a bad thing that it was too complex, didn't work and they were implementing WoF instead of doing that.
You know, for someone who accuses people of not reading things...
I've quoted a block of text repeatedly on this thread and on the last thread about why you can't use just that method to shake people out of their comfort zone. I didn't say it was bad, just that it didn't go far enough because of various player-side problems and it's unreasonable to expect DMs to always have to go the extra mile to introduce tactical complexity. That big block of text pretty much stated why this is the case, but the takeaway is that you need
another way to shake things up on top of that. This means that, no, I'm not advocating WoF as a way to replace other methods of depth, I'm advocating it to supplement what I see as an inadequate amount of depth.
Kaelik wrote:Since combat powers only matter for killing shit, having infinity combat powers is not better than having one unless you can leverage that into a better combat result. Since WoF can't, it's not meaningful.
That would mean something if eliminating option paralysis was the only aim of WoF.
But it does this at the cost of very very very increased likelihood of having actually shittier powers, and the absolute surety that you cannot plan in advance you actions ever.
it gives you 6 combat powers that change, but see the thing about earlier, having more combat powers only matters if one of them gives you a better result in combat.
1) If you're doing an At-Will only system and you go into combat with a shittier set you're stuck with a shitty set for the rest of combat. At least in WoF you have a chance of rolling a good set. I feel this is an advantage, because people are more peeved about bad luck then they're encouraged by good luck and also because it's easier to placate people if you say that their luck could turn around in 1 rounds instead of 5.
2) I'm actually not a fan of people planning their actions in advance more than one round. The first is because this leads to scripting--coming up with a brand-new script every combat is actually kind of interesting and clever, but if you have the same set of powers then it leads to similar or identical scripts which gets old fast. The second is because it encourages people to overlook or ignore the tactical situation because a lot of human beings have trouble abandoning bad or suboptimal plans once they invested enough effort into them.
3) Who cares if your powers you have available are shittier than a supposed optimal power? I don't really give a shit if you're fighting Frost Giants and a fire-themed power never came up. It's not like you didn't get to make choices among your other powers. If you don't get Fireball when fighting a Treant, tough cookiepuss. Figure out which out of X number of spells is the best. Stop throwing a hissy fit because your plans got a slight derail.