The reason why fighters will never have nice things.

[souran]

Nah, most fighting systems tend to be pretty similar as long as the weapons are similar. Germans have Vom Tag and the Japanese have Jodan no Kamae, but it's really the same thing. Similarly, a knight would take the centurian's mail and spatha and be almost perfectly at home. Most of the skills are going to transfer over pretty quickly.

This is stupid. Fighiting systems are somewhat like languages in that once you know one or two picking up others becomes fairly easy.

Further, fighiting styles are not games. They are not even. Some work, some work really well, and others suck balls.

For instance, even though people like to disparage the style of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, that "napoleonic" and proto-napolionic fihgthing method actually managed to conquer the freaking world becuase it works really well with the weapons involved.

By compairson, trident is a synthasis of martial arts developed with the intent of making a physical martial art that is useful for people whose everyday job is to kill people. While being a pinicle of unarmed combat it sucks donkey balls compared to having a loaded pistol.

The knight who finds the centurions stuff is not going to want that shit unless its his only option. It doesn't work like his stuff, there are similarities but his stuff is tailor made to the way he knows to fight.

[Orion]

SHIELD guys are supposed to be more of a top level fighting force, so I'd say they're closer to level 5-8 and he's more of a 10th level fighter even without his god powers. It doesn't translate particularly well though since DnD tends to be poor at emulating anything that isn't DnD.

Nah. The mook soldiers in your game are level 1-2, regardless of whether the "mooks" in your storyline are peasant, brigands, soldiers, or elite assassin teams. The purpose of mooks is to be cut down in droves, and that's what level 2 characters do.

[FatR]

Even in the movie he's ridiculous. He takes blows that would pulp any mid tier (level 10-20) 3.X character without any lasting harm,

There is nothing in the movie remotely similar to a tarrasque. Not even close to being remotely similar. Monster he beats are - generously - in low two-digit CR, if we look at what they do. A 20th level DnD character can take a blow from a tarrasque, hell, be chewed up and swallowed by that thing and be perfectly fine. And it is expected from him.

he has really fast flight and powerful ranged attacks at will and IIRC he's shown to be fairly resistant to magic.

I wonder if this just you being you, or a suprisingly well thought-out trolling, because you've just described almost every high-level monster. Particularly these right in the game's name.

He would turn any non-optimized DnD character under epic levels into a pulp within seconds.

[echoVanguard]

agumentum ad grognard

I move to have this added to the list of logical fallacies in use at TGD.

echo

[souran]

I've decided to abandon this conversation, but I wanted to point out that there is a great documentary show on Netflix called Deadliest Warrior. Every episode pretty neatly points out how similar and dissimilar warriors from various places would match up.

It's actually pretty surprising how little weapons and fighting styles matter.

Wait, you are talking about a show that pits people from different time periods against each other in moch duels where part of the evaluation is a subjective analysis of the effectiveness of their weapons......


That show doesn't involve anybody who knows anything about anything. Mostly what it proves is that the human body can be mauled vischouly by weapons as early as the stone age. I wouldn't be suprised if the did a "cavement vs. astronaughts" episode.

Weapons are function of their technology and purpose. Some weapons are just bad. Some things it turns out are just fail strategies. Techonology impacts weapon deisgn, which impacts method of use and drives the cycle. However, that doesn't mean that older weapons are nessessarily less leathal. The heavest armorded knight can still be killed by beating his face in with a rock.

[Novembermike]

This is stupid. Fighiting systems are somewhat like languages in that once you know one or two picking up others becomes fairly easy.

Further, fighiting styles are not games. They are not even. Some work, some work really well, and others suck balls.

Fighting styles tend towards the same movements. All humans are pretty much the same mechanically and there aren't that many ways to stab with a spear or swing a two handed sword. European Longsword and Japanese Katana forms are pretty much the same. Fighting styles only get bad when people stop using them for fighting and the practical reinforcement of good techniques and punishment of bad techniques is lost.

For instance, even though people like to disparage the style of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, that "napoleonic" and proto-napolionic fihgthing method actually managed to conquer the freaking world becuase it works really well with the weapons involved.

Nobody who knows anything makes fun of Napoleanic mass formations. It was the best tactic for the technology and politics of the era.

By compairson, trident is a synthasis of martial arts developed with the intent of making a physical martial art that is useful for people whose everyday job is to kill people. While being a pinicle of unarmed combat it sucks donkey balls compared to having a loaded pistol.

What the fuck is Trident? If it's some military combat system, most of them are either BJJ and boxing or Muay Thai or they're bullshit.

The knight who finds the centurions stuff is not going to want that shit unless its his only option. It doesn't work like his stuff, there are similarities but his stuff is tailor made to the way he knows to fight.

Centurions basically used the same equipment as knights. You're talking about an arming sword (Spatha), chain mail, a decent sized shield and a polearm. Pretty much every army that hit a certain tech level developed the same kind of stuff.

[Niles]

Drizzt actually had at least three, maybe four quite powerful magic items (my memory kind of fails me if his armor survived sunlight, or only blades). At the time when normal characters weren't guaranteed to have one.

But could be expected to have dozens.

[souran]

Well, its good to see people throughing out their SCA, Arma, fencing, kendo, mma, and fight book credentials.

If you can find a better source of information to ground realism in, I'd love to see it. Being that people who actually fought lethal combat with edged weapons and plate armor aren't terribly common anymore, we kind of have to make do with what we've got. I'll admit it's not ideal, but there are some basic combat principles that never change.

Its not that these are not valid creditials, its that there is no way we can verify anything about them because its the internet. Further, many of these sources have fundamental disagreesments on the nature of conflict and some of them have done tests and gotten different results. Its like Kant and Nietzche they both have a metaphysics but they don't play nice.

Seriously, everytime I have seen people on rpg forums argue about combat realism it eventually ends with "well I am a grand master black belt in judo and I say XXXX" to which somebody says "Well I am in the Navy Seals and the truth is YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!"

The fact of the matter is that fighting can be as low tech as walking up to somebody and sucker punching them in the face and then rolling on the ground punching htem in the side and pulling their hair. It can also involve getting other people to do specific things with specific tools. Our rpgs only model these as abstractions at the highest level to cut out the thousands of variables that go into every single fight.

So the conclusion I have after 20 years of rpgs is that the fights are NOT realistic. They are pretty good simulation of whatever assumptions you build into the system. They are NOT realistic and attempts to make them more realistic get bogged down in defining things like what are the REAL results of doing X.

[Midnight_v]

Drizzt actually had at least three, maybe four quite powerful magic items (my memory kind of fails me if his armor survived sunlight, or only blades). At the time when normal characters weren't guaranteed to have one.

But could be expected to have dozens.

It's really hard to compare the Bob Salvatore books to the game. The weapons and gear presented in the game were... unimpressive lets say.

Fectin is actually right, Fighter = character that does not get nice things. Fucking becomes the standard definition. I think someone was bitching about the tome fighter being busted even, why? Likely cause it got nice things. Lots of people end up wanting to kill impossible shit with a sword and a sword flourish but get pissed when you represent that mechanically, in pretty much ANY WAY.
That may be why fighters will never get nice things.
Too many people bitch about it when they do.
My horror comes from people who say "fuck no!" to the warblade and say "Ah yeah, okay" to the Duskblade and his gishy prc cousins. They claim the flavor is wrong but then ban it still Even if you made in into Hobgoblin magic sword style! Which it totally is, and not different from Elven magic sword stlye thematically.
Naw its just dickery on thier behalf.

I also hate the MAB (magic accessory barbie) because it starts to give many dm's more fap bait. I spoke with a dm who said he would never give any player access to a magical weapon other than a longsword, mace of somekind, or a bow. . . Said he hates katanas, and busterswords, so I asked did he stop players from buying those things and or spending feats to enhance them etc... "No they have to just learn the hard way"
Horrid form. These people don't need anymore amunition.
There is almost always some lingering dickery about giving people magic shops etc.
So playing a MAB might be what somepeople want but we've no way of knowing what that demographic's portion would be, but thats not really awesome as a concept.
You're badass because you have those new jordons on, not because you're Michael Jordon.

Finally, all you have to do to allow the fighter to have nice things is give him nice things. If its nice stuff and not broken nice stuff people will generally be accepting of it. It just has to be understood that people will almost always resist anychange so thats just somthing that comes with the territory.
Maybe like the rokugani samurai that gets his ancestral weapon hardcoded in the class more things need to be hardcoded into the class. Ritual of enhancement for the MAB, but it isn't satisfying for a good portion of the people.

[souran]

Fighting styles tend towards the same movements. All humans are pretty much the same mechanically and there aren't that many ways to stab with a spear or swing a two handed sword. European Longsword and Japanese Katana forms are pretty much the same. Fighting styles only get bad when people stop using them for fighting and the practical reinforcement of good techniques and punishment of bad techniques is lost.

Well the reinforcement and the punishment are usually winning and losing. The similarity in movement is hwat makes it eaiser to learn more styles once you know a couple. The differeances are where things start to get important. Its not about just swining its about what the swing is trying to accomplish. Also not all two handed swords are weaponized the same. Its not unreaonable to classify weapons as similar to each other. it is unreaonsable to asusme that similar is interchangable. They just are not.

What the fuck is Trident? If it's some military combat system, most of them are either BJJ and boxing or Muay Thai or they're bullshit.

Trident is the U.S. version of Krav Maga, or any really modern unarmed combat system. The fact is that Mauy Thai, and boxing, and Krav Maga, and Trident and etc. while they are all unarmed combat systems are not the same fucking thing.

Centurions basically used the same equipment as knights. You're talking about an arming sword (Spatha), chain mail, a decent sized shield and a polearm. Pretty much every army that hit a certain tech level developed the same kind of stuff.

Except no they didn't. The centurion might have a spatha, or he might have a gladius. Either way, roman swords usually had a lot of weight near the tip which might not be true of the arming sword the knight is used to. (Knight is acutally pretty bad for this becuase their equipment changed over their functional period). The chain mail that hte romans used was based on the rest of the gear that legionaires wore. Which included a breastplate, grieves and band or guards on the lower arms. The knights chainmail was worn over a leather jerkin that was used to redstribute the impact force. The roman's shield would be square. It would go from the knees to shoulder. The shield is designed to be used with a weapon that stabs from around the shield. The knight (assuming he is more northern european) has either a circular or oval shield (early) or triangle or kite shield (late). An oval shield is used with a slashing weapon where you want to not have ot expose yourself to much from behind the shield to make a killing blow. Oval and ciricle shields but especially kite and triangle shields are much easier to use on horseback than square shields. Further a knights shield usually goes to above the knee instead of below and may ore may not go all the way to shoulder.

The legionaires didn't actually have polearms (well those that fought as hoplites did but lets stick to a typical legionaire). Legionaires carry javalins used to to make formations disorganized before before charging and fighting as a shield wall. Now, the shield wall was a mehtod of fighting that traveled to nothern europe and in the post roman era it was used (for instance we know that anglos and saxons fought with shield wall formations)

The Knight if he is nothern europeaon will look at this equipment and what to know where is the

1 lance
2 fighiting spear or polearm (late)
3 Bow (horsebow preferred)
4 Crrossbow (even better but only applies late)
5 Throwing axe or hammer (earily mostly)
6 Pick or hammer or pierecing dagger (late)
7 Flamberge or other weapon for busting up polearm formations (late)

Now, a single knight probably wouldn't own all those weapons. But he would own a few. The only people going into battle with anywhere near that kind of equipment kit are Caterphatoi and those really are not knights, they are soldiers who fight and train like knights and trace their history to legionaries.

So a knight isn't going to take a legionaires gear if he has a choice because it is missing shit he wants/needs and is designed for fighting in a world that simply doesn't exist anymore.

[Midnight_v]

How does that relate to fantasy combat? How would one ever represent different fighting styles
1. Without it sucking.
or
2. Without it being "too wuxia" or whatever?

[K]

Drizzt actually had at least three, maybe four quite powerful magic items (my memory kind of fails me if his armor survived sunlight, or only blades). At the time when normal characters weren't guaranteed to have one.

But could be expected to have dozens.

For the record, the character had no magic weapons for the giant fight in question. Later in the book he does get one.

He does have a statue that turns into a magic panther.

The author seems to have realized that sticking to the DnD rules was pretty shitty because nothing matches up. In an interview, he even stated how WotC tried to get him to make his next book with the characters a 4e novel and he simply refused.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Well, yeah, but in the same book he fights a balor who via plot-induced stupidity forgets all his magic. So yeah.

[Kaelik]

I think someone was bitching about the tome fighter being busted even, why? Likely cause it got nice things.

Alternatively, not to speak for whomever, but they could have been bitching because it's a shitty class that can't do anything outside of combat (Except UMD and Diplomacy, which are both terrible and Stealth) and in combat, instead of "having nice things" they just had "RNG breaking absurd things" which makes them only different from a Shocktrooper Barbarian in that they don't have to charge to instantly end the fight in an arbitrary stupid way that makes 70% of all enemies completely useless except when used as absurdly large numbers of mooks to waste on of the fighters actions each round.

[Midnight_v]

I think someone was bitching about the tome fighter being busted even, why? Likely cause it got nice things.

Alternatively, not to speak for whomever, but they could have been bitching because it's a shitty class that can't do anything outside of combat (Except UMD and Diplomacy, which are both terrible and Stealth) and in combat, instead of "having nice things" they just had "RNG breaking absurd things" which makes them only different from a Shocktrooper Barbarian in that they don't have to charge to instantly end the fight in an arbitrary stupid way that makes 70% of all enemies completely useless except when used as absurdly large numbers of mooks to waste on of the fighters actions each round.

I'll fucking pwn you...
What the fuck did you just describe. They have both umd and diplomacy. So what exactly do you want the fucking "FIGHTER" to do "Outside Combat"? That kind of stupidity really think you're not getting enough oxygen or something.
Answer that, what the fuck do you want them to be doing outside combat? Using a version of diplomacy that doesn't let you play "Thriller" with undead is a decent thing to do outside combat. What then do you want to see? Its not a "SOCIAL" class?
When do they break the Rng that I know of so elaborate on where they fall off the random number generator. I'm not certain that they HAVE any serious number boosts in that class? I havn't played one except at low levels so humor me and 'splain slowly. I could see you making an action economy argument but I"m unaware of the rng thing likely because you fucking made it up.
Further...

end the fight in an arbitrary stupid way that makes 70% of all enemies completely useless

Well I'm pretty sure... that every fucking caster worth a fuck is doing that. I say worth a fuck because I"m not sure what the fuck a Warmage is supposed to really even be doing and don't care, but the big 3? The big three guys who you're supposed to be equal to? Do that shit all day long and then some really because they control time.

See. . . that's why its just "bitching", Kaelik, because it really is any attempt to make the fighter = Full casters, or anywarrior = full caster. Is met by appalled and astonished mouthbreathing.

Pre-foil on that class chart its not even an issue, post foil its the same shit the wizards, and Codzilla are doing.
If "YOU" a fighter are not allowed to play the same game then what Lago gets to in a lot of his posts is correct, why have a fighter at all? Casters, do that from level 1 up. Casting Grease or Sleep to glitterdust etc deny whole monster groups a turn.
So it basically does what a relavant "fighter should be doing". Even if its using mad amounts of actions to Umd up some serious hodoo, even then its just mimicing fucking "Celerity-TimeStop~Rapekit~Win.
Sound horridly fucking hypocritical

[K]

Well, yeah, but in the same book he fights a balor who via plot-induced stupidity forgets all his magic. So yeah.

Remember, this was back in 1e when drow had Magic Resistance.... you know, the thing that made all spellcasters cry like little girls? It makes perfect sense why a demon with experience with the drow would not cast spells on them (and this demon is mentioned as having experience with the drow).

It used to be 50% +2% per level, so even at 10th level it's a 70% chance of automatic failure before saves are even checked. I wouldn't cast on those odds if I was also a powerful fighting guy.

[Prak]

Even in the movie he's ridiculous. He takes blows that would pulp any mid tier (level 10-20) 3.X character without any lasting harm,

There is nothing in the movie remotely similar to a tarrasque. Not even close to being remotely similar. Monster he beats are - generously - in low two-digit CR, if we look at what they do. A 20th level DnD character can take a blow from a tarrasque, hell, be chewed up and swallowed by that thing and be perfectly fine. And it is expected from him.

Depowered, he beat the crap out of Shield mooks. A few could touch him, sure, but overall, he won, which means that, together, roughly 10 SHIELD agents are EL-2 for him (or there about). So it was probably a couple mooks 3 levels below him (Hawkeye, and the strong man), and a bunch of trainees, probably about 3rd level, maybe 4th. SHIELD's real strength lies in it's tech and influence, neither of which came into play in Thor's assault on Hammerguard. Then Loki sends the Destroyer, which kicks the shit out of Depowered!Thor. Looking at it, I'd say it's high end of large, maybe huge, has a strength of 40-ish, maybe a +10 natural armour, high hit dice, and a breath weapon, which is sufficient to destroy a car in a single blast.

Honestly, it's a Very Young Red Dragon minus flight, plus construct immunities. So, CR 5. So there you go, Depowered!Thor is about CR 5. Which means my estimates on SHIELD agents are woefully over-estimated.

[Kaelik]

Midnight, you are fucking retarded.

Allow me to explain the difference:

Wizard: I notice the enemy, hope they are not in some way (illusion, non standard type, some spell effect) concealing their weaknesses/immunities, or have anything that negates a large swath of actions I might take. Then I cast a spell. The spell forces a saving throw, which, if I correctly anticipated their weak save, and they aren't immune to the status effect I am conveying, they have a 40-60% chance of still living anyway, but my spell might have a partial effect.

Fighter: I see the enemy, I full attack the enemy (or take a move action then full attack the enemy, or don't even full attack, because I don't need to, or I whirlwind all the enemies) and do twice their HP in damage no save, and I take 10 on the attack roll.

If they are not under the effect of delay death, and they don't have any way of preventing me from making an attack roll against them on my turn, this fight is no over.

EDIT: Plus, for shits and giggles, I convey the best status condition aside from death, with the fewest number of ways, and hardest to obtain immunity and I do it with a DC that's higher than the Wizards.

[Novembermike]

Depowered, he beat the crap out of Shield mooks. A few could touch him, sure, but overall, he won, which means that, together, roughly 10 SHIELD agents are EL-2 for him (or there about). So it was probably a couple mooks 3 levels below him (Hawkeye, and the strong man), and a bunch of trainees, probably about 3rd level, maybe 4th. SHIELD's real strength lies in it's tech and influence, neither of which came into play in Thor's assault on Hammerguard. Then Loki sends the Destroyer, which kicks the shit out of Depowered!Thor. Looking at it, I'd say it's high end of large, maybe huge, has a strength of 40-ish, maybe a +10 natural armour, high hit dice, and a breath weapon, which is sufficient to destroy a car in a single blast.

Honestly, it's a Very Young Red Dragon minus flight, plus construct immunities. So, CR 5. So there you go, Depowered!Thor is about CR 5. Which means my estimates on SHIELD agents are woefully over-estimated.

3.X is a bad system and lacks any meaningful way to estimate the power of the Destroyer. IIRC it's supposed to be incomprehensibly strong, more on the level strength 70 since it's supposed to go toe to toe with gods and not have to back down, and it's durability is to the point that pretty much nothing mundane could destroy it (including nukes). Remember, ind DnD terms this thing would be a legitimate threat to setting gods.

[Prak]

Depowered, he beat the crap out of Shield mooks. A few could touch him, sure, but overall, he won, which means that, together, roughly 10 SHIELD agents are EL-2 for him (or there about). So it was probably a couple mooks 3 levels below him (Hawkeye, and the strong man), and a bunch of trainees, probably about 3rd level, maybe 4th. SHIELD's real strength lies in it's tech and influence, neither of which came into play in Thor's assault on Hammerguard. Then Loki sends the Destroyer, which kicks the shit out of Depowered!Thor. Looking at it, I'd say it's high end of large, maybe huge, has a strength of 40-ish, maybe a +10 natural armour, high hit dice, and a breath weapon, which is sufficient to destroy a car in a single blast.

Honestly, it's a Very Young Red Dragon minus flight, plus construct immunities. So, CR 5. So there you go, Depowered!Thor is about CR 5. Which means my estimates on SHIELD agents are woefully over-estimated.

3.X is a bad system and lacks any meaningful way to estimate the power of the Destroyer. IIRC it's supposed to be incomprehensibly strong, more on the level strength 70 since it's supposed to go toe to toe with gods and not have to back down, and it's durability is to the point that pretty much nothing mundane could destroy it (including nukes). Remember, ind DnD terms this thing would be a legitimate threat to setting gods.

Um, no.
I looked at this page to refresh my memory on what it could do, and an image shirt refreshed my memory as to how strong it was. Then I consulted Mutants and Masterminds' strength chart (same scale as D&D) to determine about how much strength it would need to deflect a car. Looking at Red Dragon stats, it's roughly a very young dragon. It's a curb stomp battle for Frost Giant mooks, which are not D&D's frost giants, but similar enough if you remove a handful of HD from the D&D stats. Also, the asgardians are not on the same order as D&D gods. The Marvel Asgardians are a ECL-ed Outsider race, with a normal cr of maybe 2. Thor trained up a bit, and was intended to be Asgard's hero, on par with the Destroyer as protection against frost giants. Even if you correct my error in forgetting about the red dragon's strength, and size it up, and add another 16 strength to make the Destroyer as powerful as it might be, you're not looking at something much beyond a CR 7, and I think that's about right. It's fire element, so it doesn't need a lot to take out a few frost giant mooks it catches by surprise. So at the outside most, Thor with Hammer is level 8 or so, with an artifact weapon, and Depowered!Thor is level 6 or 7, with Shield putting out a bunch of 3rd level mooks, a 4th level strong man, and Hawkeye, who can be whatever level we want, because if I recall correctly, he didn't actually get to do anything.

3.X is the best system D&D has had, and while that's not saying a lot, it can represent things from outside itself fairly well, if you know what you're doing.

[Chamomile]

So the conclusion I have after 20 years of rpgs is that the fights are NOT realistic. They are pretty good simulation of whatever assumptions you build into the system. They are NOT realistic and attempts to make them more realistic get bogged down in defining things like what are the REAL results of doing X.

I'm actually totally okay with that. Fantasy authors don't typically concern themselves with exactly what the limit of human capability is, and I've regularly seen fantasy characters who are not famous worldwide for their incredible, Bruce Lee-level, once-in-a-century levels of skill who can do things that would give them that status in real life, and it doesn't even bother me, because in fantasy land, the range on what mortals can do is just bigger. If I see, in a novel or game, a swordsman cut through a dozen giants with skin like steel and ten feet of height on their single opponent, then walk away from it like it was nothing because it was nothing, I really don't care that he's just used positively absurd, anime-levels of skill.

Also, I just had a thought for giving Fighters nice things. Being a MAB is problematic because the character gets overshadowed not by an item like Excalibur, which is legendary and plot-significant and the only awesome toy Arthur gets, but by a huge pile of magical items, 90% of which have no significance whatsoever, and due to the forces behind Conservation of Ninjitsu, can't have a whole lot of significance, because the significance of one vanishes beneath the pile when it's one of a half-dozen, with a new one swapped in for an old every other session.

So instead, give the VAH-type class a single weapon with great significance to them, like Excalibur or Mjolnir, which gains them cool powers as they go on.

Also, make the Wizard/Sorcerer less of a do-everything class. There's just no way around this one, it needs to happen if the others are to ever be of any significance next to them.

[Prak]

So instead, give the VAH-type class a single weapon with great significance to them, like Excalibur or Mjolnir, which gains them cool powers as they go on.

Yeah, pretty much. Make the powers about them and their bond with a specific weapon (not type of weapon, the distinct item) rather than picking up random crap from tombs. Leaves more for other people, combats golf bag syndrome, becomes flavouful, etc.

The VAH does, however, still need special stuff of his own that he can do without that one weapon.

EDIT: Actually, we could even go the Avatar, Star Wars, Terry Pratchett route and have the VAH construct his special weapon himself at 5th level or so.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Well, yeah, but in the same book he fights a balor who via plot-induced stupidity forgets all his magic. So yeah.

Remember, this was back in 1e when drow had Magic Resistance.... you know, the thing that made all spellcasters cry like little girls? It makes perfect sense why a demon with experience with the drow would not cast spells on them (and this demon is mentioned as having experience with the drow).

It used to be 50% +2% per level, so even at 10th level it's a 70% chance of automatic failure before saves are even checked. I wouldn't cast on those odds if I was also a powerful fighting guy.

Would a telekinetic disarm work in 1e, or would that check magic resistance? I'm not at all familiar with 1e, but my 2e book says the balor gets telekinesis at will and is immune to weapons weaker than +3 (which the only one Drizz't had was that one scimitar). Doubt Errtu'd recognize the blade on sight, but it's worth a try.

Although I do have one question for everybody: are we talking about the fighter here anymore, or is there any reason we can't just roll the ranger, the fighter, and the rogue into a single class? I'm really not seeing any good reasons against considering the omnicasters we've got lying around.

[Chamomile]

I'm really not seeing any good reasons against considering the omnicasters we've got lying around.

Get rid of the omni-casters, then. Idea: Would requiring more barred schools help at all?

[Novembermike]

Um, no.
I looked at this page to refresh my memory on what it could do, and an image shirt refreshed my memory as to how strong it was. Then I consulted Mutants and Masterminds' strength chart (same scale as D&D) to determine about how much strength it would need to deflect a car. Looking at Red Dragon stats, it's roughly a very young dragon. It's a curb stomp battle for Frost Giant mooks, which are not D&D's frost giants, but similar enough if you remove a handful of HD from the D&D stats. Also, the asgardians are not on the same order as D&D gods. The Marvel Asgardians are a ECL-ed Outsider race, with a normal cr of maybe 2. Thor trained up a bit, and was intended to be Asgard's hero, on par with the Destroyer as protection against frost giants. Even if you correct my error in forgetting about the red dragon's strength, and size it up, and add another 16 strength to make the Destroyer as powerful as it might be, you're not looking at something much beyond a CR 7, and I think that's about right. It's fire element, so it doesn't need a lot to take out a few frost giant mooks it catches by surprise. So at the outside most, Thor with Hammer is level 8 or so, with an artifact weapon, and Depowered!Thor is level 6 or 7, with Shield putting out a bunch of 3rd level mooks, a 4th level strong man, and Hawkeye, who can be whatever level we want, because if I recall correctly, he didn't actually get to do anything.

3.X is the best system D&D has had, and while that's not saying a lot, it can represent things from outside itself fairly well, if you know what you're doing.

That page basically says that Strength is unknown but high, Toughness is unknown but high and he has energy blasts that are of an unknown but high power. Take a look over at the Earth 616 page to get an idea of just how high that "unknown" is. Also, Thor's buddies are at best high level fighters, but Loki and Thor are at minimum high epic and probably gods depending on the writer.

Also, provide some math for your level calculations, it looks like you're just pulling it out of your ass. I could probably get a good idea of how to stat them out in GURPS, but DnD tends to be far too arbitrary for any meaningful comparisons to non DnD characters.