Fixing Overpowered Spell Casters

[Swordslinger]

Unless you dumpster dive through splatbooks for spells, are an incantatrix, or both. Then good luck.

Well, one thing that should immediately be done is remove all caster PrCs. Casters don't need PrCs at all. They get tons of abilities as it is. As for splatbook spells, you've got to be careful about what you add, if you use them at all.

You could probably say just PHB spells only. Wizards would still be powerful enough.

[sabs]

caster PRCS fall into 2 catagories:

1) WHy did you take this crappy PRC instead of your actual class, you worthless loser
2) What the hell, who made this stupid PRC it gives you all your spell progression, and 15 super awesome abilities that are way better than anything you could have gotten by staying a wizard/cleric/whatevrr

[fectin]

caster PRCS fall into 2 catagories:

1) WHy did you take this crappy PRC instead of your actual class, you worthless loser
2) What the hell, who made this stupid PRC it gives you all your spell progression, and 15 super awesome abilities that are way better than anything you could have gotten by staying a wizard/cleric/whatevrr

You skipped "fundamentally the same, but with prewritten fluff"

[Josh_Kablack]

Also, "The first N levels are strong, but you should bail out at the first level that doesn't give spell progression"

[Parthenon]

Surely it should be simple to make balanced spellcasting PrCs, especially for games that won't go past level 12. You just have, say, the prerequisites of 4th level spells, then instead of spell progression have the caster levels increase with level and add a few 1-4 level spell slots. Then, you either add 5th level spell equivalent abilities or remove all 5th level and up spells from the PC's spell list and add your own chosen ones.

Basically instead of spell progression you get your lower level spell slots slightly increasing and level appropriate abilities that you can use multiple times per spell preparation.

Or, you get a new spell slot progression with a whole new spell list that starts at level 4 or 5 and you add the caster level for both classes.

[Kaelik]

Or you just accept that everyone is going to PrC for stuff, and make a bunch of Seeker's of the Lost Traditions, and zero Incantarixes.

[Swordslinger]

A better question is why you need spellcasting PrCs at all. Don't spellcasters already have enough abilities to choose from as it is?

[Nachtigallerator]

A better question is why you need spellcasting PrCs at all. Don't spellcasters already have enough abilities to choose from as it is?

I don't think spellcasting PrC are any more conceptually invalid than PrCs in general. They should be made when a player wants to focus on a theme (and thus get focused abilities) without introducing new spells that anybody could pick up, and thus kinda miss the point of specialisation. It doesn't have to improve a particular trick to game-breaking levels, it should make it more interesting. Same as with any other PrC, really. The question is not so much "Isn't it enough power already?" it's "How can we allow players to have the power flavor they want without ruining the game?"

[Kaelik]

A better question is why you need spellcasting PrCs at all. Don't spellcasters already have enough abilities to choose from as it is?

No, that's a stupid question.

a) because sometimes people want to be able to do something that not every single other Wizard in the universe can do.

b) Because they already fucking exist, so if you take them away, people will be pissed, because while they can take having Incantatrix banned, they can't take, No, you can only be Wizard 20, Fuck you.

c) Because between Fighter/Samurai/Monk/Barbarian/Knight, melee characters already have enough abilities to choose from as is, so why the fuck do you also need Death Knight/Bone Knight/Blood Knight/Riverman of Styx anyway?

Seriously, what the fuck is people's problem with there existing a PrC that allows your Wizard to be different from other people's Wizards in some method besides you being smarter than them, or them being smarter than you about spell choices.

There is nothing overpowered about a Seeker of the Lost Traditions, or a Ninja of Gax, or a Man with Burning Eyes, or whatever, that justifies all the Wizard PrC hate.

Yes, Incantatrix is a problem. But Archmage or IotSFV is not. Those are things that add some cool tricks that are not more powerful than what Wizards already have, but are different and can't be mimiced with in the current set.

[Josh_Kablack]

Seriously, what the fuck is people's problem with there existing a PrC that allows your Wizard to be different from other people's Wizards

Oooh. I know this one, at least if you'll permit a bit of hypothetical strawmanning:

Because any PrC that is not as good as taking additional Wizard levels is a PrC that an optimizing player will not take, and therefore is unlikely to see gameplay, and any PrC that is at least as good as taking additional Wizard levels is going to appear overpowered to anyone not familiar with the tricks and combos a wizard is capable of. Thus many games end up with all Wizard PrCs worth taking being banned by the MC, and all allowed PrCs being ignored by the players. Hence the perception that it's impossible to make balanced/worthwhile PrCs for wizards.

[MGuy]

Aren't the only Wizard PrCs worth taking for wizards only the ones that basically allow you to be a wizard but with better abilities? I've never seen someone take a wizard PrC to be different just more powerful than a regular wizard [To the limits that you can be more powerful than the best class in the game].

[virgil]

All of the wizard PrCs I take, yes, are a wizard+. However, all of the powers I get from them pale in comparison to the spells I gained alongside them which I would've gained with straight wizard anyway. I wouldn't call someone a powergaming munchkin if they wanted a free slingshot when they bought a .45 Magnum.

[Josh_Kablack]

Ideally a balanced PrC should compare to a base class by having stuff in both th "better than" and "worse than" columns.

Here are the class features of the Wizard

• d4 HD
• Poor BAB
• One Good Save
• One Bonus Feat per 5 levels
• Familiar Advancement
• Spellcasting Progression.

For designing PrCs, the game standards assume that you cannot give a class a lower HD, worse saves, or a lower BAB than the wizard already has. So in terms of stuff you can put in the "worse than" column, that leaves a designer just bonus feats, familiar advancement and Spellcasting Progression.

Familiar advancement is so minor as to be nearly trivial, so any PrC ability to compensate needs to be nearly trivial to compensate.

The issue with taking away bonus feats is that most PrCs are designed to be entered around 6th level, so often a given character isn't even losing out on the bonus feat for 3-4 levels down the road, and well, that's the lifespan of like half of all D&D games, so if a PrC gives a wizard anything at all now for not getting a feat later, it's usually a good trade.

So really the only thing a designer can balance a wizard PrC around is reducing spellcasting progression.

The design challenge here is that spellcasting progression includes a bunch of sub-features, and they scale in non obvious ways.

+1 caster level gives a character all of the following:

• Increased chance of getting through SR
• Increased spell ranges
• Increased spell damages
• meeting caster level prereqs for item creation
• Increased spells per day
• including access to higher level spell slots
• Increased spells in spellbook (or spells known for Sorcs,et al)

While it wouldn't be too hard nor necessarily unbalanced to design PrCs who traded features from the first four of those around for other abilities, it's the final three that cause any loss of caster level to be an opportunity cost which increases with level.

A character who PrCs out of Wizard at 6th level and into Eldritch Knight something that doesn't give a caster level effectively gives up a 2nd level spell slot and a 3rd level spell slot by taking Eldritch Knight lvl 1 instead of Wizard lvl 6. However, the eldritch knight always stays a caster level behind, so at 7th level the EK has given up a 1st level spell and a 4th level spell (plus potential bonus 4th level spells due to Int) relative to the wizard), at 8th level the EK has given up a 3rd level and a 4th level spell slot, at 9th level they given up a 2nd lvl and a 5th lvl slot (plus potential bonus 5th level spells for high Int)

So in order to just be an even trade for the spell slots part of losing a caster level, a PrC level without a caster level increase has to offer an ability which is as good as casting the highest level spell plus at least one more spell that a wizard of the same total character could cast. In order to be an overall even trade, it has to offer that plus abilities that make up for missing out on scaling ranges, damages and against SR.

[DSMatticus]

I've never seen someone take a wizard PrC to be different just more powerful than a regular wizard

You are missing the point. Majorly. Wizard spellcasting is pretty much the most powerful class feature in the game. There is almost no currently existing ability worth trading for a level of spellcasting. This neatly divides wizard PrC levels into two types.

The first of which is a level that loses spellcasting progression, but gives class features (or maybe nothing). If you take this level, you are trading ULTIMATE POWER! for Something Stupid. Nobody makes this trade.

The second of which is a level that advances spellcasting progression, and gives something maybe nothing. If you take this level, you are trading ULTIMATE POWER! for ULTIMATE POWER! and Something Stupid, together. There is no reason not to make this trade, because having both is better than having one.

Wizard PrC hate is like telling a character to stat up a deity, then they ask if they can have a +5 sword and you're like, "fuck you, stop being greedy, you dick." They already have the best class feature in the game. There is nothing you can give them that they would 'trade' for what they already have (if they're smart), so all you can do is give them more on top of it. And this has the added benefit of not really increasing their overall power (because it's already over 9000, +2 or +3 more doesn't matter), but giving them some meaningful flavor beyond "I'm a wizard."

Then of course, there are some PrC's like incantatrix. But compared to what wizards can already do, incantatrix really isn't even a tipping point into a new level of WTF? Hell, you can build an evoker incantatrix that doesn't suck balls, which is actually pretty cool.

[Kaelik]

Ideally a balanced PrC should compare to a base class by having stuff in both th "better than" and "worse than" columns.

Unless you know, you have a non shitty design goal, like making people enjoy taking Wizard PrCs more than taking the Wizard class for 20 levels. In which case, it should have nothing worse, it should just add minor abilities that are distinctive, but not overpowering.

[MGuy]

I've never seen someone take a wizard PrC to be different just more powerful than a regular wizard

You are missing the point. Majorly. Wizard spellcasting is pretty much the most powerful class feature in the game. There is almost no currently existing ability worth trading for a level of spellcasting. This neatly divides wizard PrC levels into two types.

The first of which is a level that loses spellcasting progression, but gives class features (or maybe nothing). If you take this level, you are trading ULTIMATE POWER! for Something Stupid. Nobody makes this trade.

The second of which is a level that advances spellcasting progression, and gives something maybe nothing. If you take this level, you are trading ULTIMATE POWER! for ULTIMATE POWER! and Something Stupid, together. There is no reason not to make this trade, because having both is better than having one.

Wizard PrC hate is like telling a character to stat up a deity, then they ask if they can have a +5 sword and you're like, "fuck you, stop being greedy, you dick." They already have the best class feature in the game. There is nothing you can give them that they would 'trade' for what they already have (if they're smart), so all you can do is give them more on top of it. And this has the added benefit of not really increasing their overall power (because it's already over 9000, +2 or +3 more doesn't matter), but giving them some meaningful flavor beyond "I'm a wizard."

Then of course, there are some PrC's like incantatrix. But compared to what wizards can already do, incantatrix really isn't even a tipping point into a new level of WTF? Hell, you can build an evoker incantatrix that doesn't suck balls, which is actually pretty cool.

I'm failing to see how I missed the point. I said that the only ones worth taking at all are the ones that are a basically "Be a wizard +". That and I've never, in the entirety of the time I've spent gaming had anyone I've played with say to themselves "Being a PrC wizard will add flavor to my wizard".

Personally I don't like PrCs much [Mostly because of their necessity] and I hate the Wizard class altogether.

[Josh_Kablack]

Ideally a balanced PrC should compare to a base class by having stuff in both th "better than" and "worse than" columns.

Unless you know, you have a non shitty design goal, like making people enjoy taking Wizard PrCs more than taking the Wizard class for 20 levels. In which case, it should have nothing worse, it should just add minor abilities that are distinctive, but not overpowering.

o_0

So in your world, wizard PrCs should just flat out be better than straight wizard, but only by "minor abilities"?

That leaves absolutely no reason for anyone to ever take levels of Wizard once they qualify for a PrC. So wizard levels 7-20 are a fucking waste of space and by extension all core classes are only 6 levels long. That worked soooo well for d20 Modern.......

[DSMatticus]

The point is that there is no wizard PrC that does not either A) suck, or B) make you different and more powerful at the same time. But there is no way to be a 'different' wizard who is of equally powerful class features as a straight wizard, so the fact that it ends up making you more powerful is unavoidable. The other option is to handicap yourself for flavor, and people don't like doing that (and shouldn't have to). Blame wizard for giving literally no class features except spellcasting progression, which it is stupid to trade for anything in the world.

[fectin]

There are some things that might be worth losing a caster level for.
Pale Master is pretty solid, especially as an NPC.
Rainbow Servant has some good things going for it, as long as you don't have to slog through the middle.
Mindbender isn't terrible.
Sandshaper is at least situationally good.

It's all pretty situational though.

[K]

The point is that there is no wizard PrC that does not either A) suck, or B) make you different and more powerful at the same time. But there is no way to be a 'different' wizard who is of equally powerful class features as a straight wizard, so the fact that it ends up making you more powerful is unavoidable. The other option is to handicap yourself for flavor, and people don't like doing that (and shouldn't have to). Blame wizard for giving literally no class features except spellcasting progression, which it is stupid to trade for anything in the world.

There are lots of Wizard PrCs that are just side-grades. Alienist and Elementalist come to mind, but even a few minutes of work will find more.

I mean, getting more stuff is not always more power. Lots of abilities are pretty meaningless from a power standpoint, and getting them as part of a PrC is not a net increase in power because they are just flavor abilities.

For example, fire resistance is pretty meaningless at the levels you get it because it's like one of fifteen different damage types that monsters might be using and you'll be lucky to use it more than three or four times in the campaign.

[virgil]

I feel dirty for saying this, but that was one of the things Pathfinder had a good idea for, even if the execution was lacking. They gave wizards a handful of various minor abilities with the intent that none of them were real upgrades (such as fire resist). This gives them something to discard when taking levels in a PrC, and so there's an actual debate.

If this was done better, you could combine this with the side-grades that Alienist and its ilk provide, you'd have a lot more wiggle room for wizard PrCs that aren't mandatory.

[Koumei]

Note that some Wizard paths seriously gave useful stuff like "A bonus to Initiative, one of the most important things in the firstonly round of a fight".

Anyway if you feel they absolutely have to sacrifice something (I don't), you could make a Wizard Prestige Class specifically state it:
[*]doesn't add to spells known (so they have to pay the spare change for their new spells)
[*]gives less spell slots (though that's quite painful for wizards)
[*]or bans a school/subtype of magic (or says you can learn no new Wizard spells, instead getting their new list)

For Sorcerers, you could just sacrifice spell slots and call it a day.

[MGuy]

The point is that there is no wizard PrC that does not either A) suck, or B) make you different and more powerful at the same time. But there is no way to be a 'different' wizard who is of equally powerful class features as a straight wizard, so the fact that it ends up making you more powerful is unavoidable. The other option is to handicap yourself for flavor, and people don't like doing that (and shouldn't have to). Blame wizard for giving literally no class features except spellcasting progression, which it is stupid to trade for anything in the world.

I still don't see what I missed. I didn't deny any of this... at all. In fact this is just exactly what I said in different words. It seems you missed my point. My point was, I've never had anyone, met anyone, and never was that guy who looked for a wizard PrC because they or I thought the wizard didn't have enough "flavor". This is especially true at higher levels where you could really take on any flavor you want..In fact, I'd have to say this is the first discussion that I've ever been in/seen that even implied that a wizard needed more of it where-in flavor was the focus instead of making a certain power more viable.

[DSMatticus]

Wait, so you're saying wizard has flavor? Where is it hiding?

Describing yourself as a wizard is boring. Every guy who hurls spells can call himself a wizard. Certainly, you can make up your own titles for yourself, and give yourself a theme, but this is D&D, and people expect that sort of thing from prestige classes because that's what they're for.

But as is, anybody who's straight 20 wizard doesn't have a single different class feature from any other guy who's wizard 20, and that's not very... flavorful.

[MGuy]

If you don't have a "theme" by the time you get to the levels where a PrC should even be available then you probably don't care about it at all. I agree that playing a class just like everybody else is kinda sucky but seriously we're talking about a class that can do quite a lot of shit at base. Which is why I don't like it in the first place.