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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus »

What right do you have to police stepping in to stop your house from being robbed? What right do you have to affordable fruit picked by impoverished mexicans?

Society is founded on the concept of you exchanging money for the benefits of being in that society. You are now basically arguing, "I shouldn't have to contribute to society in order to be a member of society." Or rather, "I should only have to contribute in certain ways to be a member of society."

But what difference is there between paying money for police (whom I have never had to call for), and paying for welfare (which I have never had to use)? What philosophical or rational grounds do you have for approving of one and disapproving of the other?
Arioch wrote:I don't think "majority" means what DSMatticus thinks it means...
Excuse me, plurality. Are you happy now, smartass? :tongue: Of the people who receive welfare, whites are the largest group. They are the plurality. If you lump all minorities together, you barely beat whites. Barely.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Actually, yes. I've been flamed for pages for less.

EDIT: At the risk of speaking for PR: He has the right because he freaking paid for the privilege of having the police step in his house during the burglary, and (I am going on a limb here), but he'd probably say the fruit merchants should accept lower profits by hiring American fruit pickers, and tell the shareholders to suck a barrel of cocks. (PR of course can correct me if I'm wrong.)
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K »

PR is a libertarian, which basically means he wants no government or social organization or laws except for personal property protection. It's just selfishness writ large.

It's basically a perfect philosophy for someone too stupid to understand the huge benefits he receives from government and too self-centered to contribute the tiny amount required even if he did.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

basically what count said but I'll address it anyway
What right do you have to police stepping in to stop your house from being robbed?
how about I pay their goddamn salary with my taxes
What right do you have to affordable fruit picked by impoverished mexicans?
uhhhh we shouldn't be having fruit picked by impoverished mexicans, the agricultural industry should be told to fuck off and hire americans. the agricultural industry is an example of exactly what happens when the government intervenes in the free market and how things get fucked up

now I'm not interested in having a discussion about how the free market would deal with the agricultural industry right now but suffice it to say that I believe that we could have fruits and veggies based on a fair wage at reasonable prices without the government meddling in the system
Society is founded on the concept of you exchanging money for the benefits of being in that society. You are now basically arguing, "I shouldn't have to contribute to society in order to be a member of society." Or rather, "I should only have to contribute in certain ways to be a member of society."
no I'm saying everyone should pay less taxes and there should be less government overall. if a man wishes to be charitable with his money, then let him be charitable. if a man wishes to be stingy with his money, then let him be stingy.
But what difference is there between paying money for police (whom I have never had to call for), and paying for welfare (which I have never had to use)? What philosophical or rational grounds do you have for approving of one and disapproving of the other?
the police are out there keeping you safe. welfare checks are not.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

also k is a retard, I'm not a libertarian.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Arioch wrote:At the risk of speaking for PR: He has the right because he freaking paid for the privilege of having the police step in his house during the burglary
Yes. He invested in a society's police in the hopes that that investment would have future returns of stopping him from being robbed. Those returns may or may not materialize. If PR were to end up destitute tomorrow, having access to welfare would just be another thing he previously invested in in the hope that it would provide returns and it turned out it did. If PR is not destitute, the money he invested in welfare is wasted. But if PR doesn't call the police anytime soon, by the same token that money's just being wasted.

What PR is against (and all his arguments have been against) is people who intentionally abuse welfare so they don't have to work. And that's an obviously bad thing, because they are trying to skimp on contributing to society (by having a job) and still reaping benefits (social assistance). But it's seriously not even clear that that happens, and especially not to a meaninful extent. You don't have to invoke 'minorities are lazy' to explain why minorities are disproportionately more likely to be on welfare. They're born into poverty, and that destroys opportunities pretty quickly. The odds for going from trailer trash to rocket scientist are about as good as going from ghetto to rocket scientist, we just don't consider trailer trash a 'racial demographic.'

Wait, where was this going? What point was I trying to make? Oh yes. PR thinks he shouldn't have to provide for other people's financial stability, but why can't I ask why I should have to pay for protecting PR's property? I don't care about his property. I have no interest in the matter. Yet my money goes to protecting it.
PR wrote:the police are out there keeping you safe. welfare checks are not.
Police keep people safe from criminals. Welfare checks keep people safe from complete financial ruin.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

the reason we all pay for the police force is because they are out there arresting criminals, deterring crimes, and keeping neighborhoods safe. and privatizing the criminal justice system probably isn't the best idea.

now to play the devil's advocate against myself, a better example than the one you've given is the fire department. I've never had a fire, so why would I pay for them? in theory we could have a privatized fire department and that might increase efficiency and help save more homes, and it would reduce the tax burden. on the other hand it's probably easier just to socialize the damn thing (and at this point I'm considering the same thing for health care but like I've said we're fucked at this point and nothing's going to stop this ship from sinking) of course now I'm completely rambling

welfare checks, unlike the police force, don't do much of anything except hand out freebies to people. also I have seen little evidence that keynesian economics is the right way to go about things, as judged by the current state of america's economy. I'm not totally against welfare (unlike tzor I believe that being pro-life creates a moral obligation to provide government programs to help those who would otherwise have an abortion because they can't afford children), I simply believe in a restrained hand to it.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by K »

Psychic Robot wrote:also k is a retard, I'm not a libertarian.
Mmmm, then you should avoid their literature. If you realized that your entire world-view and belief system is shared by so many people, it may destroy your sense of being an unappreciated genius.
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Post by DSMatticus »

The police and the fire do the same thing; as I've said, I've never had to depend on police for personal interference. Or a fire department. Now you do accurately point out that the fact that these services (specifically police) exist has drastic, long-reaching effects. The fact that there is a police department reduces crime overall, so it has a broad social effect that is universally beneficial even if not beneficial on an individual basis to me.

But the idea is that welfare does the exact same thing - it may not individually help everyone, but it takes people on the verge of economic collapse and buys them time to become functional members of society again (and yes, it is better for everyone if we have less non-productive members of society. Every person we have who has a job instead of being homeless adds strength to our economy, and having a stronger economy benefits everyone in that economy). Now, we can argue about whether or not welfare does this, or if it's just being abused instead of turning people from a path of homelessness and destitution and dependence towards employment.
Psychic_Robot wrote:privatized fire department
Psst, there are actual demonstrable cases where privatizing things did not make them better or more efficient, and making them public fixed them. The Swedish had a real estate crisis like ours, and they fixed it by buying the bank's assets and putting them under public control, fixing the problems, and then gradually working to liquidate those publicly-owned banks. They fixed their problem with socialized, public banking. And they did it really cheap. And they got away from it very fast, and they did it with lots of limitations, because they were as afraid of a publically-owned, government-ran bank as you probably are, and there's probably a lot of legitimacy to that.

The real moral of public vs private is that you are super-stupid to put all your eggs in one basket. If you refuse to let the government step in and protect people from businesses, businesses will crush people. If you give every responsibility to the government, you haven't really helped anything just opened them up to being screwed by the government instead. If you allow the private sector to exist and hold it publically accountable, you have two fail-safes to protect consumers and citizens; market choices and legislation. And I'd rather have two obstacles between me and someone trying to milk me for every dime I'm worth than one.

So, now that I've brought up public vs private sector and we are in danger of derailing from a derail of a derail in a thread designed to collect abortion derails, is there any liberal vs conservative topic we have not touched?

Edit: P.S., while you have a more cynical view of welfare and socializing healthcare, I found myself agreeing with a lot of what you said. What I'd like to see is welfare replaced with a social works program; instead of handing money to people, just directly employ them in adding value to the country's infrastructure. That is win-win, because they have jobs and they are contributing to the economy. But of course, that's socialism, and evil.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by K »

Welfare keeps people from being forced into crime to avoid starvation. It's probably more effective than police and jail combined in terms of crimes prevented.

Also unlike jail, people on welfare can go on to to become productive members of society unlike ex-cons who are basically locked out of society forever.

I'm torn on work-programs. Historically, they have failed in every state where they have been tried. That being said, we may not have been doing it right because people flip out when the government does anything that a private business could be making money at so the jobs offered might have just sucked.
Last edited by K on Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

see my idea of holding people accountable to the public is radically different from yours. you want to hold people accountable by using government intervention in the market. my solution would be simply to execute those involved in catastrophic fuckups and redistribute their assets to those wronged. imo putting the fear of God into people is better than all the government bureaucracy combined
What I'd like to see is welfare replaced with a social works program; instead of handing money to people, just directly employ them in adding value to the country's infrastructure. That is win-win, because they have jobs and they are contributing to the economy. But of course, that's socialism, and evil.
better yet help them find work in the private sector
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by K »

Psychic Robot wrote: better yet help them find work in the private sector
Been tried back in the Clinton era. It was determined to be a total failure.

It basically comes down to the fact that the people who end up on welfare tend to be the most unskilled people and the jobs they can get generally suck more than welfare in the sense that after you pay for childcare you are not making any money at all.

I suppose this could be solved by expanding childcare past the public schooling we already do, but early childcare is actually more expensive than just paying mothers to stay home.

Work training programs also tend to fail for lack of investment. People need large and general work skills and not 8-week courses or one-year college programs that were being offered.

Highschool fails these people super-hard, but that tends to be because we try to educate everyone to be a PhD candidate instead of realizing that most people will never need more math than is required to make change or any literature, history, science, economics, or PE at all.
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Post by Orion »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: you're going to have to use either a(nother) totally arbitrary standard (like philosophy or randomness or tea leaves or whatever) or something scientific like... neuroscience.
GAAH! This kind of bullshit is exactly the reason I hate Sam Harris and the Daylight Atheism guy. You don't get to pretend that just because your philosophy seems simple and self-evident to you that it isn't a philosophy. You can't have a scientific definition of "personhood" because personhood isn't the kind of thing science investigates. Or rather, you could use sicentific tools to determine who we do in fact give the rights of persons to but not to decide who we we should give those rights to without some preexisting philosophical commitment... like maybe the idea that sapience is "the crown jewel of personhood."

PR wrote:the police are out there keeping you safe. welfare checks are not.
I live on the south side of Chicao. I'm pretty sure that welfare checks *are* keeping me safe by reducing the number of people motivated to commit crimes against me.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Psychic_Robot wrote:my solution would be simply to execute those involved in catastrophic fuckups and redistribute their assets to those wronged.
No, that doesn't make sense. "You ruined the economy. I'm going to shoot you in the face." "What law did I violate?" "None, we don't regulate the private sector." "... So what am I being punished for?" "Being a way too successful but completely legal businessman."

I am completely for proposing regulations that allow you to take people who burn and pillage your economy for profit and shoot them in the face (or at least take back the stuff they stole and throw them in jail for a very, very long time). The problem is, before you can rationally and justly do that, you have to make the things they're doing illegal. Which means you are regulating the unfair business practices that destroyed your economy.
Psychic_Robot wrote:better yet help them find work in the private sector
How? Picking a company and paying them to hire people? See, this is... problematic. You're just paying a company in the hopes it will create jobs. There are countless times we have tried that, and it did not work at all. It worked terribly, horribly bad.

To find them work, there has to be work. If there were work, they could probably find it themself. Supply-side economics... ehh, doesn't work so much. Creating a project directly, like renovating the U.S.'s energy grid, or metro/train infrastructure, is creating the work, then letting people fill it.

Though, it doesn't fix the problem K points it; some people are pretty much unemployable.
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Post by Orion »

Actually I have a straight-up legit question for PR, not even rhetorical or anything: Why do you feel that illegal immigrants working agriculture for slave wages is the result of "government meddling in the free market."? I mean, it's a hugely complicated situation and obviously the government has a hand in both immigration and farming, but I still don't see it your way.

If you asked me, I would say that it looks like the free market wants those cheap mexicans and has managed to get them despite what our government would prefer. What am I missing?
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Post by Psychic Robot »

DSMatticus wrote:No, that doesn't make sense. "You ruined the economy. I'm going to shoot you in the face." "What law did I violate?" "None, we don't regulate the private sector." "... So what am I being punished for?" "Being a way too successful but completely legal businessman."

I am completely for proposing regulations that allow you to take people who burn and pillage your economy for profit and shoot them in the face (or at least take back the stuff they stole and throw them in jail for a very, very long time). The problem is, before you can rationally and justly do that, you have to make the things they're doing illegal. Which means you are regulating the unfair business practices that destroyed your economy.
the point is to get people to do the right thing on their own rather than forcing them to do so via the government. otherwise what happens is you get sprawling government bureaucracies eating up tax dollars and giving favors to big businesses while screwing the smaller businesses. you simply need people to know that they will be held accountable for their actions.

example: BP oil spill. instead of making a bunch of regulations and inspectors saying YOU MUST HAVE THIS MANY SAFETY VALVES, you simply inform the company that they're going to be liable for the damages they cause. now once shit hits the fan because the company is sloppy, you fine the business. or just kill the executives because multi-national corporations are largely evil anyway
How? Picking a company and paying them to hire people?
goddamnit does that sound like the free fucking market to you. seriously think before you open your whore mouth. the fact that you are insinuating that I would support subsidies for businesses when I have been arguing against subsidies for people is so infuriating that I could throw a brick at your face right now. IF YOU ARE TRYING TO TROLL ME, MISSION FUCKING ACCOMPLISHED

no the government would help people find work by developing their resumes and helping them find companies that were hiring, perhaps arranging for interviews.
Supply-side economics... ehh, doesn't work so much.
fuck you I am not a republican, do not equate me with reaganomics. my tax cuts are a matter of principle, not the bullshit "the rich will pay us more money if they have more spare cash"
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Actually I have a straight-up legit question for PR, not even rhetorical or anything: Why do you feel that illegal immigrants working agriculture for slave wages is the result of "government meddling in the free market."? I mean, it's a hugely complicated situation and obviously the government has a hand in both immigration and farming, but I still don't see it your way.

If you asked me, I would say that it looks like the free market wants those cheap mexicans and has managed to get them despite what our government would prefer. What am I missing?
the government should not be allowing illegals into the country to perform cheap labor because it artificially inflates the labor supply and thus rapidly deflates wages. the fact that large corporations are given the go-ahead to work illegals to the bone so they can send money back to mexico is repugnant on multiple levels. yet another crime that is worthy of capital punishment.

like I said I'm not a lolbert. libertarians are in favor of relaxed immigration laws and open borders bullshit, and anyone advocating open borders is a treasonous, anti-american snake.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by DSMatticus »

PR wrote:the point is to get people to do the right thing on their own rather than forcing them to do so via the government. otherwise what happens is you get sprawling government bureaucracies eating up tax dollars and giving favors to big businesses while screwing the smaller businesses. you simply need people to know that they will be held accountable for their actions.
Oh god that's horrible. Your idea to run a country is to wing it such that nobody understands what is and isn't legal. For fuck's sake, the goal of a company is to make money. And if they get to good at it, you will step in and shoot them for being so good at it as to be disruptive to the other market forces?

It's like some kind of fucked up meritocracy, where you reward people who do well, but murder the people who do too well.

I mean, you're right that companies need to be fined for the damages they cause. But you can do that just by saying, "companies will be fined for the damages they cause," and then enumerate some personal accountability penalties for the head executives. And that's 'government regulation.' You will also need some way of determining if the company is or is not harming people, because it is not immediately obvious. The BP oil spill is an obvious case, because you could look and see, "oh my god! All that oil!" but not every case is so thankfully obvious. That means the government needs the law and some agency to represent, monitor, and enforce that law.

You're seriously trying to get the benefits of laws and regulations, but at the same time saying the laws and regulations that make that possible are bad and have to go away. It would work if we had some magic crystal ball that would tell us who needs to be fined and jailed, but we don't have that magic crystal ball.
Psychic_Robot wrote:no the government would help people find work by developing their resumes and helping them find companies that were hiring, perhaps arranging for interviews.
Jobs do not magically appear when you look for them. When unemployment goes up, it isn't because jobs start fucking hiding. It's because they stop existing. So when you start trying to help those people get jobs, looking really, really hard for those jobs that stopped existing is not it. You have to do something to create jobs for them to fill. You want the jobs to be private sector, but at the same time you don't want to give any incentive to the private sector to make jobs. This is an impossible contradiction; they already did the math, and they figured out it was profit-beneficial to fire people, not hire them. You have to change that analysis to get them to turn around and make jobs.
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Post by K »

Psychic Robot wrote:
like I said I'm not a lolbert. libertarians are in favor of relaxed immigration laws and open borders bullshit, and anyone advocating open borders is a treasonous, anti-american snake.
Paleolibertarians like Ron Paul want closed borders for illegal workers. You still appear to be well within their wheelhouse.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

for the most part, I don't think that we need laws and regulations except for in giant clusterfucks like the BP oil spill. obviously the list of shit companies could or could not do would have to be more spelled out but everything should be pretty obvious: do not dump raw sewage into the river, do not torture small children, and so on.

ethical violations should be evident to everyone. businesses should be kept in line from the fear of reprisal, not because a government agency is inspecting them constantly. executives of large corporations should be tiptoeing around, fearing the noose because that's just what they deserves.

it's not an ethical violation if a small business owner makes $50,000 a year and pays his employees $8/hour. it is an ethical violation if mike duke is raking in $35 million a year while his employees are scraping by at $8/hour. the law should largely be self-evident.
Jobs do not magically appear when you look for them. When unemployment goes up, it isn't because jobs start fucking hiding. It's because they stop existing. So when you start trying to help those people get jobs, looking really, really hard for those jobs that stopped existing is not it.
well duh. but some people due to the "social circumstances" you were talking about earlier can't find jobs. rather than cutting them another check, the government should be helping them find jobs. but ramping up infrastructure spending in the middle of a recession is probably not the best idea because you're either going to wind up raising taxes (a bad idea during a recession) or deficit spending (a bad idea always).
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Yes, but what's your idea for catching these people who are doing bad things? Seriously. How? How can you possibly catch someone who, say, sells bad meat if you don't do some sort of analysis on who's getting sick from what food? You want that information to be obvious enough that we can just act on it, but that is a fantasyland fairytale. Somebody has to find that kind of information, do that sort of testing, and collect that information.

There is no fear of reprisal if there is no one to catch you. To go back in terms of the police, you want to punish criminals, and have them stop doing crime because of fear of reprisal, but you don't want there to be any police, detectives, or prosecutors. You're going to have to explain how that is supposed to work.
Psychic_Robot wrote:rather than cutting them another check, the government should be helping them find jobs.
No, no, no. This is obvious. Unemployment goes up. What happened? Did jobs move and start hiding under rocks? No. Those jobs literally disappeared off the face of the earth. Those jobs are no more. You are saying the solution to unemployment is to help people find jobs that no longer exist.

You're also going to have to explain how that is supposed to work. Seriously; recession means backwards economic growth. Getting people to hire in a recession is hard, because there is literally less to employ people to do. The profit-maximizing move is to fire employees, since it increases their profit margin if they were at equilibrium before. Your idea is to help people find jobs, but the problem isn't that jobs are hard to find it's that less of them exist than did previously. An obvious solution to this is to create more jobs. So how?
Psychic_Robot wrote:but ramping up infrastructure spending in the middle of a recession
Spending breaks recessions. Recession means lack of economic growth. When money gets spent, that means increased demand in some region of the economy (for the thing money is getting spent on). To meet increased demand, the economy has to grow. When the economy grows, you aren't recessing anymore. Anybody can do the spending. In this case, the infrastructure is the government spending money, and then people getting paid money to work, so they spend money, so demand for commercial products goes up, which means employers have to increase supply by hiring new people, and then those people are getting money, which they can spend on things they want to increase demand... etc, etc.

Raising taxes is not a bad idea during a recession at all. Hell, raising taxes on the top 2% wouldn't even cost us jobs. The point of a company is to maximize the profit margin. This means, when they decide whether to fire/hire someone, they are looking at, "how much money does their work make us, and how much money does it cost to pay them?" Increasing taxes on corporate profits does not shift this analysis. It means their work will make them less money, but reducing a number by a percentage cannot make it negative. If corporations raised taxes, and in response fired people, they would be losing money twice over (assuming equilibrium before). This is a crude analysis, because it turns out there's some 'flat numbers' and 'overhead' here and there that change this, but it is not proportional in the way you expect. You can make more moneygrowth than you lose by taxing corporations, easily.

Unless you think changing the corporate tax rate makes us competitive with the third world, and we will either lose more jobs to them/win jobs back from them, which is stupid. No tax rate will make us competitive with the third world; the labor costs are vastly different. The only jobs that stay here are the ones people haven't figured out how to outsource yet. You can't serve me burgers from China.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Yes, but what's your idea for catching these people who are doing bad things? Seriously. How? How can you possibly catch someone who, say, sells bad meat if you don't do some sort of analysis on who's getting sick from what food?
consumers complain. and chances are that buying bad meat will hurt business enough that a company will try to avoid such in the future.
No, no, no. This is obvious. Unemployment goes up. What happened? Did jobs move and start hiding under rocks? No. Those jobs literally disappeared off the face of the earth. Those jobs are no more. You are saying the solution to unemployment is to help people find jobs that no longer exist.

You're also going to have to explain how that is supposed to work. Seriously; recession means backwards economic growth. Getting people to hire in a recession is hard, because there is literally less to employ people to do. The profit-maximizing move is to fire employees, since it increases their profit margin if they were at equilibrium before. Your idea is to help people find jobs, but the problem isn't that jobs are hard to find it's that less of them exist than did previously. An obvious solution to this is to create more jobs. So how?
fuck would you please bother to read what I am writing
some people due to the "social circumstances" you were talking about earlier can't find jobs. rather than cutting them another check, the government should be helping them find jobs.
instead of writing two paragraphs that have nothing to do with what I'm saying
Spending breaks recessions.
so does the business cycle. I have seen no evidence that keynesianism actually works to reduce the effects of a depression; the past decade or so has merely demonstrated that reckless keynesianism only makes things worse.

point being, when you are having the government pay people to circulate money, you're taking money from people to give to others. that money would probably be better off in their pockets. it would be akin to paying children to break windows so that people will have their windows repaired and thus force money to move in that way. the glaziers get rich, which allows them to expand their business, which allows them to hire more employees. no problem, right?
Raising taxes is not a bad idea during a recession at all.
goddamnit.

how the hell are you going to break a recession if you make sure that people have less money than when things went down the toilet? you do not raise taxes during a recession. you can raise taxes on the ultra-wealthy all you want since their money isn't doing anything, but when the middle class is spending their money on mortgage payments and insurance and car payments and groceries, you don't want to raise their taxes unless you enjoy increasing the rich-poor divide even further.

and raising taxes on businesses is a great way to get more layoffs. things at the plant aren't going well so people are getting laid off? the solution is not to squeeze the profit margins thinner. (let's pretend we're dealing with a real recession and not some shitty multi-national corporation outsourcing jobs due to corporatist policies)

and the solution to outsourcing has and will continue to be tairiffs. or possibly more executions. imo just dragging the offenders into the street and impaling them on pikes would do the trick
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus »

Psychic_Robot wrote:consumers complain. and chances are that buying bad meat will hurt business enough that a company will try to avoid such in the future.
Okay, that catches meat, and it does so poorly; you log consumer complaints and hope for the best; what if the meat is full of carcinogens that go undetected for years, and the source is not readily obvious without someone to sift through and test things? What about putting pollutants into the air? Especially less obvious ones? (It would not be hard to mask pollutant distribution from a factory visibly, if so inclined.)
Psychic_Robot wrote:some people due to the "social circumstances" you were talking about earlier can't find jobs. rather than cutting them another check, the government should be helping them find jobs.
I know what you said, but that is not what happens during a recession. A recession means that companies are going to start cutting jobs. The solution to helping people find jobs when there aren't enough jobs for the people who need them cannot be "look harder," by definition. It has to be some mechanism of making a job.

Now yes, if the problem were being unable to find jobs that actually exist, this would work. But generally, when companies want to hire it's because they can make a profit by hiring people and they like profit so they will advertise all on their own.
Psychic_Robot wrote:how the hell are you going to break a recession if you make sure that people have less money than when things went down the toilet? you do not raise taxes during a recession. you can raise taxes on the ultra-wealthy all you want since their money isn't doing anything
You're agreeing with me; I should have been more specific (I think I was later). Raising taxes on people who are spending will encourage less spending, and is bad. But raising taxes on the top 2% and cutting into corporate profits at the top level (where it does not actually effect the decision on whether to hire or fire) is good.
Psychic_Robot wrote:the solution is not to squeeze the profit margins thinner.
There are seriously dozens of corporate examples of layoffs + record corporate profits. The profit margins are not actually thin for most of the people we're talking about taxing. Now, you don't want to tax small businesses at the same rate you tax big businesses, but taxing the ultra-successful corporations is exactly as valid as taxing ultra-wealthy citizens, and for the exact same reasons you yourself have already specified.

I think we're actually agreeing; taxing the lower and middle class reduces spending, and is therefore stupid. Taxing the upper class does not, and is therefore awesome. Taxing small business will destroy jobs (because they actually are on thresholds driven by their wealth, not market demand). Taxing big businesses will do nothing (they are driven by market demand), and is therefore awesome.
Psychic_Robot wrote:and the solution to outsourcing has and will continue to be tairiffs.
I wish. We're currently in debt, and depend on the holders of that debt not screwing us over. In exchange, they get our manufacturing jobs. The second we try to change that, accumulating debt immediately and instantly stops being advantageous for them.

We can't even pretend to control foreign trade until we eliminate our debt (which means raising the taxes on the super-wealthy individuals and super-huge corporations), then seeing what the situation is like in 50 years.
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Post by Chamomile »

PR, your response to any given situation cannot be "shoot them" because any corporation allowed to run hog wild will, as soon as they can afford it, make sure they have more guns than all the citizenry combined. I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't do this if I were a corporation in a world with no government regulation.
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Post by K »

Corporations have been posting records profits and they aren't hiring. It doesn't even matter if we tax them or we don't because it has no effect on their policies because they hire exactly the number of people needed to get the most profits and don't hire more when they make more.

The way to fix the economy would be to directly employ people who then spend money and create demand for more jobs with their spending.

People are acting like the US has never been in an economic collapse before. We employed people before and that worked out, and why we don't want to do that now is just beyond me.
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