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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Orion wrote:
GAAH! This kind of bullshit is exactly the reason I hate Sam Harris and the Daylight Atheism guy. You don't get to pretend that just because your philosophy seems simple and self-evident to you that it isn't a philosophy. You can't have a scientific definition of "personhood" because personhood isn't the kind of thing science investigates. Or rather, you could use sicentific tools to determine who we do in fact give the rights of persons to but not to decide who we we should give those rights to without some preexisting philosophical commitment... like maybe the idea that sapience is "the crown jewel of personhood."
Kaelik gave an excellent post about this, I shall put in my two cents.

Look, sapience isn't based on anything philosophical, it's just a practical limitation. Except for some really fringe philosophies like plant rights, almost anything that has tried to define personhood (which includes religion) has implicitly or expressly stated sapience as a requirement. So while sapience is just a starting point for the definition it's still also really useful because it lets us neem down broad categories of objects to something workable before we waste time discussing the rights of snowmen or Disneyland robots.

It's a necessary point of statis and it's also one that can be scientifically investigated. If we didn't have it the debate would be completely unworkable. Fucking deal with it.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

K... why do you hate America? Is it our freedoms? It's our freedoms, isn't it?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

K wrote:People are acting like the US has never been in an economic collapse before. We employed people before and that worked out, and why we don't want to do that now is just beyond me.
The question of whether the Republicans are deliberately sabotaging the economy for political gain is seriously being raised.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Psychic Robot wrote: the government should not be allowing illegals into the country to perform cheap labor because it artificially inflates the labor supply and thus rapidly deflates wages.
When I tell people that illegals are being given a green-light for this reason people look at me all cross-eyed. Personally, I think that legal immigration should be easier and illegal immigration should be as close to impossible as is feasible. (I've been told by people that even getting into America legally to go on vacation is a kafkaesque ordeal).
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Post by Koumei »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
K wrote:People are acting like the US has never been in an economic collapse before. We employed people before and that worked out, and why we don't want to do that now is just beyond me.
The question of whether the Republicans are deliberately sabotaging the economy for political gain is seriously being raised.
Please tell me that constitutes Treason. That's like a life sentence, right? They could do what Berlusconi may soon need to do, running the country from within prison.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Lago, you don't get to declare sapience has value and expect that to be a point everyone agrees on. That's exactly as valid as declaring 'having a soul' has value and expecting that to be the point everyone agrees on.

Now, fortunately for you, it turns out it's trivially easy to run through the list of possible things you'd want to attribute personhood to (genetic make-up, heartbeat, blah blah blah), and realize that they suck as the defining characteristics for personhood by way of counter-example.

Genetic make-up: Sentient aliens have no right, but your skin cells do.
Heartbeat: Heart attacks make you a non-person.
Soul: Show me where that is, exactly. I'd prefer something scientifically measurable, or else this is just a dressed up way of saying, "I think it's a person because I think it's a person," and you're dumb and no one should care what you're saying.

So forth and so on, and in the end all you're really left with as a grounding point is sapience, so we focus the conversation around sapience because everything else looks really, really stupid by comparison, so if you're looking for a definition of personhood that's even halfway reasonable you use sapience. The proper response to challenges of the use of sapience is to say, "propose something else that isn't stupid," and let it sink in that they can't.

But "it's a type of science I like and approve of" doesn't really fly.
angelfromanotherpin wrote: The question of whether the Republicans are deliberately sabotaging the economy for political gain is seriously being raised.
Both sides are full of political corruption, and I'm not even sure which less so. But corruption aside, an honest Republican is still ten times worse than a crooked Democrat, because Republican economic policy is seriously so fucking terrible that you are better off having criminals running your economy than a well-intentioned Republican. So whether the Republicans are doing it intentionally or they actually believe it it's a solution doesn't really matter, its effects are exactly as painful either way.

By way of example, Ron Paul is a principled man. And a complete moron as far as his economic policy goes. (Oh boy, am I getting flamed for this one...)
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Post by DSMatticus »

Koumei wrote:Please tell me that constitutes Treason.
I'm sorry, I don't understand. How can you punish politicians for representing their own interests instead of the country's? :confused:

More seriously... yeah, uhh, as a country, we don't do so well with accountability of powerful people. You can hold our entire economy hostage and we will not only pay, but let you keep your job. Or rather, the Republicans will filibuster and cry socialism until we let you keep your job, but they have no problems with the part where we hand you lots of money.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Koumei wrote:Please tell me that constitutes Treason.
Treason is the only crime actually outlined in the U.S. Constitution. It's pretty specific: 'Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.'

So, no, I don't think there's a case to be made for treason; I don't know if there's any criminal case to be made at all, but I don't think so.
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Post by wotmaniac »

K wrote:Corporations have been posting records profits and they aren't hiring.
there are specific reasons that employment is a lagging economic indicator.
one of the major issues right now for why employment is lagging is that businesses have no idea what to expect (since the gov't want to finger-fuck everything at the moment), so they don't want to hire a bunch of people only to have to lay them off 6 months from now.
businesses want to be able to hire more people, because that means that their businesses are growing, which adds more money to their pocket.
The way to fix the economy would be to directly employ people who then spend money and create demand for more jobs with their spending.
hint: the only people that give any credence to keynesian economics anymore are keynesian progressives .... mainly because it's based on a bunch of fallacious psycho-babble.
People are acting like the US has never been in an economic collapse before. We employed people before and that worked out, and why we don't want to do that now is just beyond me.
the biggest occurrence of this was during FDR's administration. after the fact, the architect of FDR's economic policies outright admitted that those policies most likely extended the problem much longer than it would have been if simply left alone. :razz:



Oh, and supply-side empirically works. It pulled us out of the debacle that was Carter (when all the economists of the time were declaring that the posterity of the past was doomed to stay in the past). It also gave us the longest expansion of our economy ever, with previously-unimaginable unemployment rates. (it's just a shame that the gov't was pushing the banks in to irresponsible lending practices to fuck it all up).

Oh yeah -- when Clinton signed the welfare reform, unemployment went down. hmmm.... I wonder what that's about?
remember kids, "if you want more of something, subsidize it".
Last edited by wotmaniac on Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Orion wrote:
GAAH! This kind of bullshit is exactly the reason I hate Sam Harris and the Daylight Atheism guy. You don't get to pretend that just because your philosophy seems simple and self-evident to you that it isn't a philosophy. You can't have a scientific definition of "personhood" because personhood isn't the kind of thing science investigates. Or rather, you could use sicentific tools to determine who we do in fact give the rights of persons to but not to decide who we we should give those rights to without some preexisting philosophical commitment... like maybe the idea that sapience is "the crown jewel of personhood."
Kaelik gave an excellent post about this, I shall put in my two cents.

Look, sapience isn't based on anything philosophical, it's just a practical limitation. Except for some really fringe philosophies like plant rights, almost anything that has tried to define personhood (which includes religion) has implicitly or expressly stated sapience as a requirement. So while sapience is just a starting point for the definition it's still also really useful because it lets us neem down broad categories of objects to something workable before we waste time discussing the rights of snowmen or Disneyland robots.

It's a necessary point of statis and it's also one that can be scientifically investigated. If we didn't have it the debate would be completely unworkable. Fucking deal with it.
I made the argument that sapience still exists, not that it is the best method of measuring personhood. It's equally as arbitrary as any other method, because you have to fucking make up an arbitrary point, because personhood definitions are always arbitrary. I may have called a stupid version anyway. Personally, I prefer birth of a species that has demonstrated a preponderance of sapient individuals, because I am pro not killing babies that are outside the womb, even though they aren't sapient, and I am pro not killing retards, just because.
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wotmaniac
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Post by wotmaniac »

wait, wait, wait, wait ......
I just realized something .... is Lago actually advocating for the legality of postnatal abortion (i.e., infanticide)?
*WARNING*: I say "fuck" a lot.
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

wotmaniac wrote:I just realized something .... is Lago actually advocating for the legality of postnatal abortion (i.e., infanticide)?
If he doesn't, I will. Probably in a separate thread though.
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Post by DSMatticus »

wotmaniac wrote:Oh, and supply-side empirically works.
Except in every fucking case where they have empirically not worked at all fucking ever oh my god I hate you so much I can't breathe.

There is no economic case in history you can point to where supply-side economics did a god damn thing. Nothing Reagan fucking did at all was supply-side economics. He initially cut taxes on everyone to encourage spending, including the lower and middle classes, and this worked. This is not supply-side economics. He then upped the defense budget by some ridiculously huge amount, creating fucking jobs to employ people. This is not supply-side economics. He reappointed Volcker to the fed, who ran the fucking Keynesian playbook. That was not supply-side economics.

Reagan managed to take all the successful strategies from other economic theories (encourage spending, use government money to create jobs, do Keynesian monetary policy manipulation), and then attribute their success to supply-side economics. Then, with the 'strength' of supply-side economics falsely validated by the successful application of every other competing economy theory that is not supply-side economics, he used that as an excuse to hand out increasing tax cuts to the super wealthy. I.e., stealing money from the future to hand to corporations who didn't need it.

Sick of this fucking Reagan worship. Reagan didn't do shit except use the other's guy moves, change the fucking name, and add the part where it becomes economically unsustainable because it leads to a crushing national debt which we are now reaping the benefits of.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

DSMatticus wrote: But "it's a type of science I like and approve of" doesn't really fly.
I don't recall trying to imply that. I'm saying that you need a criteria that's scientifically (read: independently) verifiable otherwise you just have people shouting at each other and focusing on nonsense like souls and natural rights.

Another test proposed is viability, which I'm not quite a fan of my, because while it's really hard to have sapience without viability in most categories (respiration, immune system, digestion, etc.) in humans it may in the grim darkness of the far future be so for another class of beings. But as far as 21st Century Earth is concerned it's even better than the sapience test because while the cognition of babies and mentally disabled people is very much in doubt, viability is not.
DSMatticus wrote:He reappointed Volcker to the fed, who ran the fucking Keynesian playbook. That was not supply-side economics.
What, you don't by Volcker's 'this is really monetarist policy, honest :awesome:' cover story?
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

PR, your response to any given situation cannot be "shoot them" because any corporation allowed to run hog wild will, as soon as they can afford it, make sure they have more guns than all the citizenry combined. I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't do this if I were a corporation in a world with no government regulation.
because moral transgressions on a great scale should be punished swiftly and surely. men do not need the government telling them how to act in order to be moral persons. my methods may be barbaric, but I guarantee success with them.

dsmatticus: at this point I am growing weary, no offense intended. we have two very different ideas of how the government should run and how the business cycle works, and no back-and-forth is going to change this. this thread should probably get back to abortion now.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by K »

wotmaniac wrote:
K wrote:Corporations have been posting records profits and they aren't hiring.
there are specific reasons that employment is a lagging economic indicator.
one of the major issues right now for why employment is lagging is that businesses have no idea what to expect (since the gov't want to finger-fuck everything at the moment), so they don't want to hire a bunch of people only to have to lay them off 6 months from now.
businesses want to be able to hire more people, because that means that their businesses are growing, which adds more money to their pocket.
I hate to break it to you, but corporations account for 88% of the growth of the last three years. We are in the best pro-business environment in decades with rising growth and profits, flat or declining wages, and low work-forces. That's before Republicans try to give out more corporate tax-cuts and try to do things like return to legal child labor (not even strawmanning here... several states run by Republicans are trying this).

These are all available facts. Look it up. The words "jobless recovery" are what the economic analysts are calling it. No one thinks it's a lagging indicator except for some supply-side douches that want to make rich people not pay taxes.

Corporations aren't too afraid to hire because of the economy or the political environment. They simply know that the workforce is so scared that unpaid overtime and no raises have become the new norm and they don't need to hire.

In fact, high unemployment serves them best because it allows them to cherry-pick employees, keep wages flat, and bust unions.

The only people losing in the current recession are the people. The corps are doing great.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

things need to get worse before they get better
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by mean_liar »

Yeah, employment is not a meaningful lagging indicator, if it is a lagging indicator at all in this case. Corporations are sitting on mounds of cash and are unwilling to invest it in themselves or expand - because there's nothing to do with added production capability. There is no demand, because people are unemployed.

They should've taken a hatchet to the banks, made them whole by divesting their shit at whatever price the market was willing to pay (nothing), then turned them back out at auction... and then poured money into infrastructure development. It would've been a great plan.

Maybe it wouldn't have worked, but it would've been a lot better than what they ended up doing.

Personally, I'm starting to think that America has only been successful for the past 50 years (I'm not counting the last ten) because after WW2 every other meaningfully industrialized nation was fucking cratered and we were the only game in town. It wasn't American Exceptionalism, or our insight and awesomeness or ingenuity or pluckiness... it was just that everyone else was broken and destroyed and playing catch-up. These days, folk are caught-up.

There's no more advantage and we're just another country scrabbling by as best we can. American supremacy is over and only a world war we're not involved in could breath new life into our flagging station. Keynesian investment would've been a good idea, but it couldn't possibly save the American Empire.

Also, babies, abortion, responsibility, contraception, demographics, tragedy, empathy, compassion, coat hangers, and incest and rape.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Psychic_Robot wrote:things need to get worse before they get better
I see absolutely no reason to believe that. As a matter of fact, it seems very untrue. When you max out your credit card, do you quit your job because "things have to get worse before they get better?" Now, I understand what you're saying; when you max out your credit card, you stop living beyond your means. But it's more complicated than that, because what if you need to take out further loans to keep your business running, and your business will pay off your credit card shortly after?

The key here is to focus on increasing our economic strength. Not balancing our debt. Because if we increase our economic strength, managing the debt is not painful. If we balance our budget at the expense of destroying our economy further, tax revenue will decrease and it will be in fact harder to balance the debt every single year after next and we spiral straight to the bottom.

The debt has to get worse before things get better. Maybe. I'm not even convinced of that. I'm pretty sure a higher tax on big businesses and the ultra-wealthy would painlessly balance our budget.
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Post by Maj »

Perhaps a bit late to the thread, but I spent the time typing, so I'm posting. Suck it.
DSMatticus wrote:PR thinks he shouldn't have to provide for other people's financial stability, but why can't I ask why I should have to pay for protecting PR's property? I don't care about his property. I have no interest in the matter. Yet my money goes to protecting it.
If you live in a society, you pay for society. It is a benefit for everyone to have welfare programs because they prevent the stinking sickly masses from clogging the streets and infecting others with various diseases and uncleanliness.

My aunt hasn't been taking advantage of the welfare programs available to her, and she should be because she is certifiably nuts. She's destroyed every house or apartment she's lived in by clogging it with her filth. She has mental health problems and thus won't pay her own bills, won't follow the advice of her doctors, and thinks nothing of being on oxygen and lighting up a cigarette outside of someone else's home. And when she's evicted, she'll hide out in her neighbor's garage, rather than seeking assistance from someone who might "tell her what to do" and "take away her freedom."

She's infuriating. She's gross. She's sick. Truly and honest to God mentally ill, and a hazard who needs to be taken care of by someone - no one in her family has been capable of doing it, though they've tried.

Paying my taxes is the easiest, cheapest way that I can support my aunt. I don't have to pull my hair out looking for a private hospital to attend to her. I don't have to get involved in her medical history. I don't have to clean her house out in a hazmat suit (ever seen Hoarders?). I don't have to worry about her doing something to endanger the life of my son.

No, it doesn't make me happy. She has the money to pay her bills, but instead, she buys mountains of crap from mail order catalogues and piles it up all over her house. She could take a shower, but instead she fills it with towels and wears heavy perfume to mask how bad she smells. But she's mentally ill and without help, she's a frickin' Typhoid Mary who destroys just about everything she gets her hands on.

Despite the fact that she starts fires in the middle of someone else's living room and clogs the plumbing with her own excrement because she's inhabiting an empty house not her own where the water isn't turned on, it's taken more than half a century for someone to get her on the state's dime. The reigning theory has been to help her, get her on meds, and get her to take care of herself. But she can't. She's sick. Calling the police and the health department to come haul her out and clean things up won't prevent her from doing it again.

Does knowing someone who scammed a welfare program mean that the welfare program automatically should be done away with? Does one scam - or even thousands - out of millions mean that the program isn't useful and does no good whatsoever?

Every system has a loophole that some jerk-off will exploit. We should all know this because Denizens are largely considered by the gaming world to be the jerk-offs exploiting the loopholes. Is that a real justification for not playing - or even making - the game? Because a douchebag will exploit it?

For an interesting read on the problems of homelessness, I point you to Million Dollar Murray {OK, Homeless, Just Pay For It and Solve the Damned Problem}.
DSMatticus wrote:The key here is to focus on increasing our economic strength. Not balancing our debt. Because if we increase our economic strength, managing the debt is not painful. If we balance our budget at the expense of destroying our economy further, tax revenue will decrease and it will be in fact harder to balance the debt every single year after next and we spiral straight to the bottom.
Yes. Or to put it another way, if we cut back without investing, we will reach a point where we can't cut back further. Investing requires that we use money that we need in the short term, but in the long term, it results in a bigger, smarter payoff.

It is in times of need when conservation kicks in and obfuscates the very thing that will save us.
Last edited by Maj on Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

I see absolutely no reason to believe that.
we have to realize how fucked we are before we're willing to enact meaningful change
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Psychic Robot wrote:
I see absolutely no reason to believe that.
we have to realize how fucked we are before we're willing to enact meaningful change
Plus, people aren't quite pissed enough to revolt yet.
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Post by K »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:
I see absolutely no reason to believe that.
we have to realize how fucked we are before we're willing to enact meaningful change
Plus, people aren't quite pissed enough to revolt yet.
Considering that during the last global economic meltdown we were the only country to not have a war or revolt, I think we can assume Americans will never revolt.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Americans are revolting enough already! /rimshot
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Post by DSMatticus »

Politics is depressing. I'm going to go abort fetuses to cheer myself up.
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