Scott is totally right here. Pathfinder has surpassed D&D in most of the markets that I check.
Thanks for ninja'ing me Scott!
Scott Betts wrote:
You're welcome!
To be clear, though, you're saying that it's your belief that the Pathfinder brand has a higher sales volume than the D&D brand?
Lisa Stevens wrote:
At this time in history, that is what I have been told by people in the hobby distribution trade, the book trade, and other avenues that both games sell their products into. If you talk to the various retailers, it is a mixed bag, with one telling you one thing and another a different story. But when you talk to the folks who sell those retailers the product that they sell, then you get a clearer picture.
And I am just talking table-top RPG business. I am not talking about board games or card games or video games or whatnot. Just books and digital copies of those books for use in playing a table-top RPG.
-Lisa
That's the least ambiguous statement I've heard about PF vs. D&D sales.
EDIT: Does this post belong in the "End of 4e" thread?
Last edited by DMReckless on Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
K wrote:I am amused that Paizo can make money selling settings and adventures better than WotC.
They're at a different point in their product life cycle than WotC. No doubt Paizo will hit their rulebook saturation point soon enough and then they'll be in the same fix; 4E just had a head start on them.
One point in for and against Paizo is how their adventure paths are structured. They tend to be pretty linear, with the PCs wandering from dungeon to dungeon as they progress in level. My old DM got a lot of mileage from recycling old adventure paths but it's quite possible that lazier DMs will just shell out for a completely new adventure path.
This is completely conjectural but if they have adopted Gillette's old marketing approach give away the razor (the rule materials) and sell the hell out of the blades (the adventure paths) they may be viable for years to come.
Oh thank God, finally a thread about how Fighters in D&D suck. This was a long time coming. - Schwarzkopf
K wrote:I am amused that Paizo can make money selling settings and adventures better than WotC.
They're at a different point in their product life cycle than WotC. No doubt Paizo will hit their rulebook saturation point soon enough and then they'll be in the same fix; 4E just had a head start on them.
They were making money selling adventures before they were making even more money by selling rulebooks. There really is no reason why they can't go back.
I'm just amused that all the business models that WotC has spurned seem to be working like gangbusters for some other guys.
Let's see:
1. Not making your game more like an MMO.
2. Focus on adventures.
3. Embracing PDFs for your books.
4. Doing open calls for talent.
5. Blowing the cash for better art and books.
6. Not doing synergy bullshit with toys.
Now, I may not agree with the implementation of some of those points, but you have to agree that "not repeating the mistakes of WotC" seems to be a fine business model.
K wrote:They were making money selling adventures before they were making even more money by selling rulebooks. There really is no reason why they can't go back.
(a) They've expanded their staff since then so at the very least they'd have to do layoffs.
(b) It's unclear how long PFRPG adventures would remain popular if PFRPG stops printing new material.
(c) It's possible that they might run out of good ideas for adventure paths; I'd even argue that they're starting to run out now (an all-pirate adventure path? yawn).
But yes, a small company can stay in business doing something that a larger company doesn't deign to do.
one thing that pathfinder did right was the piranha strike feat:
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
of course this should have just been part of the power attack feat but whatever
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
K wrote:They were making money selling adventures before they were making even more money by selling rulebooks. There really is no reason why they can't go back.
(a) They've expanded their staff since then so at the very least they'd have to do layoffs.
(b) It's unclear how long PFRPG adventures would remain popular if PFRPG stops printing new material.
(c) It's possible that they might run out of good ideas for adventure paths; I'd even argue that they're starting to run out now (an all-pirate adventure path? yawn).
But yes, a small company can stay in business doing something that a larger company doesn't deign to do.
With the summer lay-offs and Paizo selling better than 4e, I wonder if Paizo actually has more employees than WotC. The Magic and other bullshit divisions probably skew the numbers, but maybe even with them included Paizo may be the winner.
Psychic Robot wrote:one thing that pathfinder did right was the piranha strike feat:
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
of course this should have just been part of the power attack feat but whatever
Other than different prereqs than power attack, I'm not sure what benefit it provides that is different than PF power attack. The version of power attack that is on the PF SRD seems to work with light weapons so I don't see how it's an improvement.
Oh thank God, finally a thread about how Fighters in D&D suck. This was a long time coming. - Schwarzkopf
hogarth wrote: But yes, a small company can stay in business doing something that a larger company doesn't deign to do.
With the summer lay-offs and Paizo selling better than 4e, I wonder if Paizo actually has more employees than WotC. The Magic and other bullshit divisions probably skew the numbers, but maybe even with them included Paizo may be the winner.
I'm not sure what your point is. When Paizo was making a living selling modules for D&D, WotC was a much bigger company.
hogarth wrote: But yes, a small company can stay in business doing something that a larger company doesn't deign to do.
With the summer lay-offs and Paizo selling better than 4e, I wonder if Paizo actually has more employees than WotC. The Magic and other bullshit divisions probably skew the numbers, but maybe even with them included Paizo may be the winner.
I'm not sure what your point is. When Paizo was making a living selling modules for D&D, WotC was a much bigger company.
My point is that Paizo might be the bigger company because they do things WotC can't or won't do. This means it's not Paizo making a little money exploiting a little niche abandoned by a bigger company, but they are exploiting a core business avenue and doing better than the original.
K wrote:My point is that Paizo might be the bigger company because they do things WotC can't or won't do.
What is the thing that WotC can't or won't do for 4E? Certainly they've put out a number of modules. Is it the adventure path concept that you're talking about?
K wrote:My point is that Paizo might be the bigger company because they do things WotC can't or won't do.
What is the thing that WotC can't or won't do for 4E? Certainly they've put out a number of modules. Is it the adventure path concept that you're talking about?
Also having more goodwill in general from the playerbase probably helps Paizo. Their mechanics generally suck but they're savvy at business and good at presentation.
Ultimate Magic wrote:Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.
This one paragraph is going to need at least two separate pieces of errata, if not three. It's unclear if you can target the same target multiple times, it doesn't say what the save DC is, and it (incorrectly) implies you can somehow continue this performance.
This is awfully petty, but it was something that caught my eye.
It has no save DC since it mentions no save DC, it can affect the same target twice since it doesn't say anything to the contrary, whether you can continue the performance is irrelevant, the "lashing out" bit only triggers on the start.
Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half)
it can affect the same target twice since it doesn't say anything to the contrary
each sound affecting one target within 30 feet
implication that it can only affect a target once
whether you can continue the performance is irrelevant, the "lashing out" bit only triggers on the start.
uh it is relevant since continuing generally maintains the effect, so do you get magic word damage each round that you maintain the song or do you have to start a new song each time
the fact that we're even having this discussion proves that the mechanics are shitty
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
Psychic Robot wrote:implication that it can only affect a target once
The rule as written implies that the writer might have meant to write something different than he did write, but what he wrote still has a consistent meaning ... each word hits one target, any target will qualify.
uh it is relevant since continuing generally maintains the effect, so do you get magic word damage each round that you maintain the song
No, because you are no longer doing this "start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level". You can maintain it all you like, but you are no longer starting it with a standard action any more now are you?
the fact that we're even having this discussion proves that the mechanics are shitty
Not really, consider the people arguing for a moment ...
A Man In Black wrote:How not to write game rule text.
Ultimate Magic wrote:Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can...Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half)
.
Attack roll AND save half? Save for half on a power that deals fucking 1d8+Cha at level 6?? Whatever monkey wrote this shit needs another date with Mr. Cattle Prod.
