What the hell is wrong with White Wolf's fluff writers?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:40 am

Their base game engine is pretty cool

here we go

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:49 am

Psychic Robot wrote:
Their base game engine is pretty cool
here we go

should I clarify?
I find the d10 system interesting; it has potential. it's just a matter of what you do with it.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:20 am

Gx1080 wrote: PR is right. WW games appeal to their most fervent fanbase. Which happen to be a bunch of deviant creeps.

That's not really what he said, though. He said America is a predominantly Christian culture and thus Christian vices are typically considered universally bad in America regardless of whether this or that American is actually Christian.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:52 am

actually I said both. one was in response to the thread title and the other was in response to whining about vices being too judgmental.

K · Post by K » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:51 am

wotmaniac wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:
Their base game engine is pretty cool
here we go

should I clarify?
I find the d10 system interesting; it has potential. it's just a matter of what you do with it.

I'd be curious what you found interesting about it considering the base system is a Shadowrun rip-off, but they used d10s instead of d6s.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:00 pm

Gx1080 wrote:I could go in a long rant about how is fucking bullshit that Christianity is the butt of all jokes but nobody dares to critizice Islam, the "religion of peace", but that's off-topic.

I guess it depends on the group you're talking about. I've heard plenty of people hold Islam to exactly the same standard as Christianity.

If Christianity is being complained about more by a group, it likely has to do more with that group having had a bad experience with it, or some other cultural reason, rather then them thinking Islam is somehow beyond reproach. Anecdotally speaking, I've never heard anyone who complains about Christianity on a theological basis extol the virtues of Islam.

souran · Post by **souran** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:03 pm

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:If they used a different religion's morality system, would it be less stupid? (Barring obvious troll religions like Wicca and Scientology. I don't take Wiccans seriously after realizing that I have living relatives that were alive before Wicca existed).

It wouldn't be less stupid because Vice/Virtue ISN'T A FUCKING MORALITY SYSTEM. HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DOES IT TAKE PEOPLE TO READ THE RULES AND FIGURE OUT ITS A FUCKING PERSONALITY SYSTEM.

There is NO punishment for playing to your vice. Infact, you are EXPECTED to play to your vice as often as you play to your virtue.

If you are a fishnet wearing face pieced goth chick or a pentacle toting women power wicca girl you still don't think that fat lazy narcissistis with short tempers are good people. It wouldn't help frank get into their pants because its still not a morality system its a personalty test and the real problem is likely the player.

For a system that is supposedly to christian it really is pathetic at actually demonstrating any christian value.

There is no blasphmeme vice which bibilically the worst sin. There is no apostay vice.

Or where are the vices that are relevant to anything remotely resembling modern christianty?

Where is the homosexulaty vice, or the "biblical lteralist" virtue?

The strange thing is that any of these things, along with pretty much anything that could be used to describe a person, could be made to fit the virtue/vice system. Infact, if you think that the game is being judgmental about the "vices" or that somehow the vice restricts you, let players pick their virtue and vice from ETHER list. So you could have a virtue of anger and a flaw of compassion. This player will now constantly play the character like wolverine from the xmen but any moral judgment on the nature of these traits is removed.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:03 pm

It's freaking Vampire, it's all about being judgmental. The game is about playing a human who has been turned into a Vampire and is slowly sliding down the slippery slope to inhumanity.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:49 pm

Chamomile wrote:It's totally irrational to say that the vice system is too Christian because it's based off of sins associated with Christianity. What makes White Wolf's fanbase magically immune to irrationality?

The whole notion of vampires (as used by White Wolf) comes from the Christian notion of vampires (several times removed, but derived from them never the less, just as the vice system is several times removed but still derived never the less). There are certainly many vampire like traditions out there that are totally incompitable with the notion used in the game.

And I believe it was Frank who once wrote about the problems of using too many "new ideas" in a role playing game; the idea that you do need a lot of things that players might already know and feel comfortable with. Most people generally know of vices.

I do recall that there were minor problems (experienced in game and from discussions) with the OWoD paths that tended to drift from the general concepts; in that they were often easily abused by players.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:49 pm

wait, wait, wait -- people actually get up in arms over vice/virtue because of the link to christianity? Really?
But I guess the whole Cain/Longinous/Dracula/whatever doesn't raise an eyebrow?

K wrote:
wotmaniac wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote: here we go

should I clarify?
I find the d10 system interesting; it has potential. it's just a matter of what you do with it.
I'd be curious what you found interesting about it considering the base system is a Shadowrun rip-off, but they used d10s instead of d6s.

skill-based advancement (as opposed to level-based), and a more stable RNG (as opposed to a d20).
never played Shadowrun -- but I assume I would feel similarly.

not sure what you're getting at there -- your verbiage seems to imply that you're trying to bait me in to something (though I may be inferring something that is not there).

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:18 pm

wotmaniac wrote:wait, wait, wait -- people actually get up in arms over vice/virtue because of the link to christianity? Really?
But I guess the whole Cain/Longinous/Dracula/whatever doesn't raise an eyebrow?

Well I'm not one to complain anyway and my experience has always been with OWoD. Your mileage may vary.

In the general story line, the whole Cain thing is practically crap. Heck even the whole third generation thing is almost swiss cheese with all the holes in it. Whether or not the fractured Fairy talk of OWoD actualy works as "christian" at this point is even questionable, because one could argue that Lilith sired Caine and now we have completely jumped off of the later "Christian" tract and into really far our extrapolations of oral Jewish traditions (because the strict oral tradition of Lilith have the angels kill Lilith - because she would not return to adam and assume the bottom sexual position - before G-d created Eve).

K · Post by K » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:29 pm

tzor wrote:
wotmaniac wrote:wait, wait, wait -- people actually get up in arms over vice/virtue because of the link to christianity? Really?
But I guess the whole Cain/Longinous/Dracula/whatever doesn't raise an eyebrow?
Well I'm not one to complain anyway and my experience has always been with OWoD. Your mileage may vary.

In the general story line, the whole Cain thing is practically crap. Heck even the whole third generation thing is almost swiss cheese with all the holes in it. Whether or not the fractured Fairy talk of OWoD actualy works as "christian" at this point is even questionable, because one could argue that Lilith sired Caine and now we have completely jumped off of the later "Christian" tract and into really far our extrapolations of oral Jewish traditions (because the strict oral tradition of Lilith have the angels kill Lilith - because she would not return to adam and assume the bottom sexual position - before G-d created Eve).

The important bit is that all that fluff is just a line in the backstory in an edition that is otherwise religion-neutral and it's not taken too seriously. Even True Faith as a trait let's you be any religion.

That's entirely different from a core mechanic that you are reminded of every time you look at your character and are forced to use all the time.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:47 pm

The whole humanity stuff always seemed a bit mired in JudeoChristian values. But that really mostly made sense. I know Christianity is all evil and stuff, but I think that's really pushing it. The word Vice does not necessarily mean Christian. Certainly not in 2011. Now, if it had been Virtues and Sins, that would be very different.

Buddhism has something like 108 Vices or "Defilement"
Now the word Vice itself, is an Old French/Old English Derivation of a Latin word "Vitium" SO, in that French and English were both heavily christian influenced, then the word itself is Christian influenced. But if we have to take every word that has it's origins in a religion out of the English language, then we're fucked.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:52 pm

sabs you fucking moron, they're christian virtues and vices, which is why [EDITED] atheists get their shit in a twist about it

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:58 pm

Pretty much every religion has a version of
Don't kill people
don't steal shit
don't bang someone else's wife.

Buddhism:
If I list all 108 Defilements, you'd find every 'Christian' sin. (Except Idolatry)
And you'd certainly find all 7 Deadly Sins.

angelfromanotherpin · Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:42 pm

sabs wrote:If I list all 108 Defilements, you'd find every 'Christian' sin. (Except Idolatry)
And you'd certainly find all 7 Deadly Sins.

I just checked - they're missing sloth, and any sloth-alikes like laziness.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:36 pm

I'm pretty sure that between:
Excessiveness and irresponsibility we've got sloth covered

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:04 am

if I were ww I would make homosexuality a vice. the tears would be epic

K · Post by K » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:48 am

sabs wrote:I'm pretty sure that between:
Excessiveness and irresponsibility we've got sloth covered

Yeh, Buddhism has a lot to say about excessiveness that maps pretty easily onto sloth.

The only notable hole in Buddhism vs. Christianity debates is the that most forms of Buddhism have no problems with prostitution. They see nothing wrong with it as a career or life-choice, though they do have things to say about obsession with sex.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:59 am

Jesus washed the feet of a Prostitute, and in some of the ignored Gospels, married her. So I'm not sure Christ had a big problem with Prostitutes either.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:45 am

It has been argued that Mary Magdalene wasn't considered a whore until the middle ages. I have heard they did that a lot to women in the bible because women were evil and crap.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:48 am

sounds like feminist revisionist history

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:58 am

Psychic Robot wrote:sounds like feminist revisionist history

I don't mean to get too far off topic, but when did PR go completely off the wagon?

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:16 am

Psychic Robot wrote:if I were ww I would make homosexuality a vice. the tears would be epic

But the basic model in White Wolf's Vampire was to have asexual vampires - drinking blood was the only source of joy and orgasm for them.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:27 am

Psychic Robot wrote:sounds like feminist revisionist history

History has been revised by people wanting to either glorify themselves or vilify their enemies since, well, the dawn of history. I feel the best way to get to the truth is ask two people who hate each other's guts then figure out which parts of the story add up.