Things Other People Aren't Allowed to Like

[Lago PARANOIA]

I don't think everyone wants to vat-grow hairy gay beefcake in their underground labs even though that's an integral part of the wizard archetype.

[echoVanguard]

I chose Wizard as a point of comparison, because they're often said to have "the class feature of 'do everything'". The real question is whether it is logically feasible to tie Level Advancement to Agency Access - in other words, having your level be a direct correlation to your Phlebotinum Reserve.

echo

[sabs]

How come noone ever considers Cleric to be the most awesome class ever? (at least in 3E and before, I know 4E did some horrible things to clerics)

[DSMatticus]

it IS the appropriate response when you say that my lucky charms should taste like your fruit loops.

Yes, if I had said that it would be a very appropriate response.

Lago makes an off-hand mention about having people level out of VAH, and I think that's a topic worth considering. Is having everyone eventually become a Wizard the only real way to make high-level play consistent and balanced?

Well, you said it yourself; capability expansion.

Wizard has room to expand in capability. They start off casting sleep on a handful of goblins and being very fragile. They graduate to casting fly and fireball. Then they graduate to plane shift and energy resistance and disintegrate. Etc, etc. And all of this is very wizardly.

Now, let's look at VAH. They start off being fairly tough, and hitting things with swords. What room does the archetype have to expand into after that? When the wizard has fly and fireball (not that anyone actually uses evocation spells, but nevermind that), what can we give the VAH? When the wizard gives himself some fire resistance and plane shifts to the elemental plane of fire, what can we give the VAH? There's nothing we can really give them there that fits into the VAH archetype, so either we don't give them abilities and they can't do the things wizards are doing (current D&D solution), or we give them crazy abilities that break the VAH role (weeaboo sword magic! I'll have none of it!)

DSMatticus: I wasn't just talking about power level there. Even if you reduce the scope of the game so that the VAH performs in the sweet spot there's still a problem with the archetype--the problem being that a VAH's skillset is inconsistently defined.

That problem is isolated in non-mechanical fictions where people's power levels fluctuate based on plot relevance. The same problem exists in superhero fictions: superman's abilities change all the friggin' time. Ergo, the superhero archetype is completely invalid as a character and we can't have a TTRPG about superheroes.

Except, of course, that we can. And we can also have a TTRPG about VAH's. The inconsistency of literary fiction is removed by having rules. Pointing out that when people write about VAH's, they do so inconsistently, is not really a problem we have to deal with because we are writing rules that create consistency. When you stat up a VAH, his abilities are right there on the character sheet and you know, before you see the situation, whether or not two guys can jump you and win or not. And when you stat up a superhero, his abilities are right there on the character sheet and you know whether or not he can lift a skyscraper or not.

A game with rules creates more consistent characters than an author. This is not surprising or relevant, and it is not restricted to any particular archetype like VAH or superhero. Using that as evidence of why a VAH is a failed role doesn't work, because by this metric every character role ever is a failed role and we can't have characters at all, which would make for a really boring game.

[sabs]

When is the last time we had a VAH who had to go up against something that was the equivalent of a level 10 Wizard though?

[Lago PARANOIA]

A game with rules creates more consistent characters than an author. This is not surprising or relevant, and it is not restricted to any particular archetype like VAH or superhero. Using that as evidence of why a VAH is a failed role doesn't work, because by this metric every character role ever is a failed role and we can't have characters at all, which would make for a really boring game.

VAH goes a step beyond Superman keeling over from a bullet because those kinds of deviations are just bad writing. Superman's power levels are inconsistent but he doesn't really lose anything from someone finally fixing his flight speed and strength and indestructability and etc. to certain levels. As long as those things meet some minimum we have no problem recognizing that what we have afterwards as Superman.

This is not the case for VAHs. The problem is fixed within the archetype of VAH. Conan needs to simultaneously be knocked out by five thugs accosting him at the way home from a brothel and needs to be able take on fifty of those thugs at the same time. This is easy to replicate in a comic or a movie, not so much in a TTRPG. If you decide to go with one or the other then tabletop Conan stops being Conan because he actually needs to do both sets of plots. It'd seriously be like making a Superman that can either fly and shoot eye lasers or he is indestructable and has super strength. It's debatable whether or not that will make a better story, but this new character is not Superman.

[echoVanguard]

Conan needs to simultaneously be knocked out by five thugs accosting him at the way home from a brothel and needs to be able take on fifty of those thugs at the same time.

Ironically enough, stance-based mechanics do this rather effectively, as do scalar powers (ie, +2 AC for every opponent you're fighting). They come with their own range of difficulties, however - and more to the point, they try to disguise the fact that any encounter which replicates "get knocked out by 5 thugs and sold into slavery" was probably just blatant railroading anyway.

echo

[DSMatticus]

No, Conan does not need anything. You can make stories about the Conan who is the equivalent of five men, or stories about the Conan who is the equivalent of fifty men, and the only problem is when you try to tell stories about the Conan who is simultaneously both.

Here's a similar problem with Superman; Superman has enemies that are melee hulks that cannot fly. Superman can theoretically fly around them laser-eye-beaming them to death, yet he rarely does. A clear definition of Superman's abilities would necessarily have to remove one of these two things: either his laser eye beams or his standing in combat with melee hulks.

But even more importantly, you are making the claim that all VAH characters need to be able to lose to a handful of chumps, and that is not a claim I am willing to grant. It is a trope that is in the fiction that contains VAH's, but it is not a trope we should faithfully reproduce. If we were making a Star Wars TTRPG, you would not want to make storm troopers the galaxy's worst shots. And if you were making a DC Comics TTRPG, you would not want to mechanically represent Superman's forgetfulness. These are things you would discard because they were bad ideas to begin with and they were flaws.

There is no reason you cannot have a VAH character that consistently wins against five chumps. It's not surprising or genre-breaking or definitionally contradictory. The idea that a VAH character has to occasionally lose in such a situation "because you see it a lot in the stories" is a strange one.

[echoVanguard]

DSMatticus makes a good point - you often see spellcaster characters in books/stories/movies behaving wildly out of sync with their TTRPG counterparts, both in terms of having Plot Powers and in terms of being vulnerable to stuff a sensible spellcaster would be protected against. The sensible thing is to design a system that's internally balanced, and then find ways to slot your trope or scene into that system, as opposed to the other way around. 3E made a good try at this, but it had a serious problem with convincing spell writers to not make spells with effects of "win game".

echo

[wotmaniac]

3E made a good try at this, but it had a serious problem with convincing spell writers to not make spells with effects of "win game".

.... and they made buckets of them.
it's almost like they deliberately set out to try to piecemeal invalidate/obsolete each and every aspect of each and every non-primary-caster.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Problem is, the same plot crap that helps warriors always pops up in the wizard fiction to "balance" wizards too, such as each and every spell having an opposite reaction, somewhere or upsetting a balance. Like this is going to deter a murder hobo if killing the dragon with a cone of cold melts the polar ice caps a little.

There's also the "vulnerabilty to easily acquired substance" thing too, but considering the abilities of D&D land, vulnerablities to iron and silver would be nullified by flight (save arrows, which are negated by wind wall).

There's also the random fuck you chart, but I don't think anyone would actually like that.

Not to mention these changes would probably piss off the grognards who hate weeaboo fighters.

[Swordslinger]

Can we stop talking about worlds that aren't' represented by D&D?
Conan isn't really D&D the most powerful wizard we ever see, can cast like 1 3rd level spell a day.. tops, and is usually having to do a ritual to do it.

D&D is generally a poor standard of fantasy. For one, D&D isn't self consistent with its own novels. VAHs are supposed to be able to do well in D&D. In the Avatar trilogy, Cyric (a run of the mill rogue, no spellcasting), ends up taking down a god. Drizz't takes down plenty of fantastic foes. In a great deal of D&D fiction, the hero is a VAH. I'll even be as bold to say in the majority of D&D fiction, the hero is a VAH.

Lets remember that people love Drizz't but hate Elminster. Most people want to see the VAH win and not the god-mage.

Anyone who is saying VAHs don't belong in D&D obviously hasn't read the Dragonlance Chronicles or the Forgotten Realms novels. The fact that the rules generally do a terrible job of simulating these stories is a flaw of the rules. 4E does a much better job of simulating most of the novels than any edition before it.

[Psychic Robot]

Anyone who is saying VAHs don't belong in D&D obviously hasn't read the Dragonlance Chronicles or the Forgotten Realms novels. The fact that the rules generally do a terrible job of simulating these stories is a flaw of the rules. 4E does a much better job of simulating most of the novels than any edition before it.

the novels do a very poor job of simulating D&D, not the other way around. also 4e is shit

[Chamomile]

Having Conan be able to take on fifty men when prepared and be taken on by five of those same men when drunk and surprised isn't actually all that hard: Being drunk and surprised grants you really high penalties. Done.

[Swordslinger]

the novels do a very poor job of simulating D&D, not the other way around. also 4e is shit

Novels don't "simulate", they tell stories. RPG rules simulate stories. And the D&D rules do a terrible job of simulating the stories made for the worlds they run.

[DSMatticus]

For one, D&D isn't self consistent with its own novels.

This is an argument no one gives a shit about, because D&D does not exist to simulate novels. Those novels exist to capitalize on D&D, and they do a piss-poor job of representing D&D to boot. This entire train of thought is stupid and irrelevant.

Anyone who is saying VAHs don't belong in D&D obviously hasn't read the Dragonlance Chronicles or the Forgotten Realms novels.

The actual discussion is whether or not they belong in high-level D&D. The answer is obviously no, VAH's cannot play a meaningful role in high-level D&D.

[Maxus]

Having Conan be able to take on fifty men when prepared and be taken on by five of those same men when drunk and surprised isn't actually all that hard: Being drunk and surprised grants you really high penalties. Done.

Wasn't Conan older when he got jumped by the five dudes? And had been King for a while, so he probably wasn't at his fighting peak, since that story starts off with him drawing out a map to add to the library.

[Username17]

When is the last time we had a VAH who had to go up against something that was the equivalent of a level 10 Wizard though?

The movie Willow. Watch the finale again, the VAHs are completely fucking useless against Bavmorda. She transforms the entire army that the PCs bring into pigs, and only magic transforms some characters back into humans so that they can participate in the final battle. Then in the actual confrontation, she picks up all the fighters and throws them at spikes using telekinesis, which they are completely fucking powerless to do anything about and they are saved at the last minute by friendly magic, but still never manage to accomplish fuck all.

Mad Martigan is a fine VAH. There is absolutely nothing he can do practically or even conceptually that would cause serious discomfort to a 10th level wizard. As soon as wizards graduate to being more than conjurers of cheap tricks that can be threatened by a sword to the face, owning a sword is not a viable or sufficient life path.

-Username17

[sabs]

Okay, I should have said, "when is the last time we had a VAH who had to go up against something that was the equivalent of a level 10 wizard, and the expectation he would win.

I had forgotten about Willow and the smackdown. But Willow really is someone's D&D game that got turned into a script

[angelfromanotherpin]

Okay, I should have said, "when is the last time we had a VAH who had to go up against something that was the equivalent of a level 10 wizard, and the expectation he would win.

I think Xena did it a fair bit.

[tzor]

Having Conan be able to take on fifty men when prepared and be taken on by five of those same men when drunk and surprised isn't actually all that hard: Being drunk and surprised grants you really high penalties. Done.

Wasn't Conan older when he got jumped by the five dudes? And had been King for a while, so he probably wasn't at his fighting peak, since that story starts off with him drawing out a map to add to the library.

That reminds me of the first attempt at the Nehwon universe (in 1E). They had stated out Fafhrd and Gray Mouser for different periods in their lives. They never quite explained why the older pair was considerably lower in level than they had been in their middle age writeups. It is one of the biggest problems with D&D that makes it damn hard to fold into anything remotely like the real world.

[echoVanguard]

The real question is whether it is logically feasible to tie Level Advancement to Agency Access - in other words, having your level be a direct correlation to your Phlebotinum Reserve.

I'm still very interested in people's opinions about this idea.

echo

[sabs]

Okay, I should have said, "when is the last time we had a VAH who had to go up against something that was the equivalent of a level 10 wizard, and the expectation he would win.

I think Xena did it a fair bit.

Don't you DARE call Xena a VAH. I will flay you alive, roast your genitals and serve them with a nice Chianti.

Xena throws a razor sharp disk of metal, that she can use to knock people down, knock people unconcious, behead statues, slay dragons, bounce of about 100 different objects and still have it be razor sharp and full force, and yet she can catch it with her bare hands.

She routinely gets into duels with the God of War, and WINS.

She's a Greek Demi-God Hero, not a freaking VAH.

EDIT
PS: That being said, she IS a good example of a Mid Level fighter, but even she doesn't go up against Wizards in any real way.

[Chamomile]

You just said that her whole thing is throwing a sharp piece of metal at people. That's being a VAH. No magic powers, just regular human abilities taken up to 11.

[sabs]

And super-human strength, super human agility, toughness. Plot armor the size of Texas and the unstoppable power of Hinted Lesbianism.


And I didn't say her whole thing was throwing a sharp piece of metal. I showed how one of the things she does is patently un VAH.

There's nothing about Xena that is regular human abilities taken up to 11, she routinely defies Gravity.. and not just her breasts.