On Fighting Men, Mages, and Game Flavor.

[Aktariel]

OK. So we all know that fighters as presented in D&D, well, suck.

Hard.

But here's the thing.

I myself find the higher level echelons of DnD... unpleasant. Boring. Tedious. Filled with paperwork and battles where counter-counter-counter measures win the day. It is, as FrankTrollman put it, rocket tag.

I'm a fan of a game where melee-ers and low level spells are the rule of the day. [which means that paladins aren't quite so much the liquid suck they used to be.]. Call me old-fashioned, but I still believe that hitting things with swords is the best way to solve problems, not wading in [or not] after your PAC has done his work.

I mean, Clerics and Druids are, let's face it, broken. So are Wizards, and to an extent sorcerors. "Hmmm. Today I think I'll... rewrite the laws of physics. *Yawn* What's for lunch?"

So, that all being said, should I just go sit in my corner and wank over Tome of Battle and what little succor it provides for melee types? Should I play with the FT & K material on this site?

Should I quit playing?

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

[Leress]

1185679924[/unixtime]]OK. So we all know that fighters as presented in D&D, well, suck.

Hard.

But here's the thing.

I myself find the higher level echelons of DnD... unpleasant. Boring. Tedious. Filled with paperwork and battles where counter-counter-counter measures win the day. It is, as FrankTrollman put it, rocket tag.

I'm a fan of a game where melee-ers and low level spells are the rule of the day. [which means that paladins aren't quite so much the liquid suck they used to be.]. Call me old-fashioned, but I still believe that hitting things with swords is the best way to solve problems, not wading in [or not] after your PAC has done his work.

I mean, Clerics and Druids are, let's face it, broken. So are Wizards, and to an extent sorcerors. "Hmmm. Today I think I'll... rewrite the laws of physics. *Yawn* What's for lunch?"

Well maybe not sorcerers, Artificers yes definitely.

So, that all being said, should I just go sit in my corner and wank over Tome of Battle and what little succor it provides for melee types? Should I play with the FT & K material on this site?

Should I quit playing?

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

1. Try out the stuff of Frank and K
2. Play a rogue, want spells use UMD
3. Try a new RPG gaming system (ex. Shadowrun, BESM, FUDGE)

[rapanui]

Aktariel, you sound a lot like Captain Bleach, and you're pretty much preaching to the choir here.

I quit playing for a while, then tried some new systems (most of them have good things intermixed with bad ideas or poorly written mechanics) and am currently trying to get an online FATE game going, but mostly I stick to Magic: The Gathering (casual level) and video games.

Frank and K's stuff looks solid, yes, but I haven't had a chance to play test any of it. It's still D&D and d20 at heart though, so some of the less savory mechanics aspects (to me) are still in there.

Long story short: there have been a lot of recent threads all over board about game systems and their relative worth from a rules-perspective. Read up.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

No, you shouldn't.

Instead, your campaigns should just end at whatever level you think the power curve extends too far. When a campaign ends at level 20, that's as completely arbitrary as ending it at level 5. Just because the charts all go that high doesn't mean you have to play that high. If you like low-level D&D, play low-level D&D and explain to your players that you'll be playing low-level D&D.

As an alternative, rewrite your house rules for prestige classes, make them only available to PCs with 5 or more base class levels, and mandate their use after level 5. Your prestige classes provide no increase in BAB, saves, HD, skill points, or spellcasting, but still provide class features so PCs continue to diversify their abilities without really powering them up.

[Username17]

OK, here's a three-step process to extend levels up to infinity without losing the Barbarian vibe:

1. Ban all the spellcasters except the Ranger and Paladin.
   
   
2. Hand out magic swords and crap like it was candy.
   
   
3. Never throw in any "monsters" over CR 3 or spellcasting NPCs of any kind.

So the party Rogue will gradually come to dominate things, but he's frankly more interesting than the Barbarians so maybe that's OK. The key here is that you aren't fighting Dragons or Demons so the fact that you need to get dimensional anchor and web to fight those things doesn't even matter.

When you're 2nd level you'll face 2 gnolls. And when you're 8th level you'll face 16-30 gnolls and you won't have any walls of fire or black tentacles or anything. You'll just be higher level fighters who fight. When you face an NPC he'll be on the same playing field as you and it won't be a big thing.

---

Are there still problems? Oh heck yes. You'll find that there are a lot of ways to ail to keep up with even these modest expectations. There are Monks and Samurai and well... Fighters who can't manage to pull their weight even when that weight is measured in kobolds.

But it's a start.

-Username17

[Judging__Eagle]

I've used the RoW, Dungenomicon and to a lesser extent the Tome of Necromancy and the Tome of Fiends stuff, and I'm telling you, it's bloody solid.

The nice thing is that I've got a pretty sure-fire method to allow almost any race as a 1st level character in a manner that allows no one to cry too much; based on the ToN vampire template and the RoW powerful monsters section.

So, people can play gargoyles alongside humans and deep dwarves and everyone is happy.

If you're really not happy with wierd spells dominating adventures at high level play and high level fighters being able to kill at least four guys in 6 seconds (thats.... 40 guys a minute), then simply don't let that happen. End the games eariler.

Seriously, the level 16 fighter, barbarian, paladin and knight are able to kill 40 guys that are level 9 in one minute of straight fighting.

That's using core material. The level 16 core barbarian can easily mow down 40 level 9 orc fighters in 10 rounds.

Using RoW, it's now a more reasonable.... 7-8 rounds. Less if you use Whirlwind + TWF + Combat Shool + Blitz + Juggernaut to become a two-legged hurricane of whirling weapons; since you could attack nearly all of the guys once per round.










Now, let's do some damage analysis (b/c now I want to prove to myself how much damage this barb can do per round):

Dealing.... 1d8 (weapon) + 8d6 (Rage dice) + 5 (assume 20 str min) + 2 (combat school) + .... 10 (power attacking*) +/- 16 (Blitz) = 1d8 + 8d6 + 17 (or +23)

*:Okay, you've got combat school, so you always take '10s' on attack rolls, you're guaranteed at least a ... +33 (16 BAB+ 5 Str + 2 Combat School + 10 'take 10' - 2 (TWF) = +31 to hit). You could easily trade off ... say +5 and still hit an AC of 26 (which is high for a CR 9 Mook's AC)

Averages out to: 4 + 24 + 17 (+23) = 45 damage a round; 61 if you use blitz.

Now, that's your 'main' hand; your off hand deals a lot less:

4 + 15 (or +31 if you blitz) = +19 (+35)



Total damage per target: 64 per round. If you can suck up the damage that Blitz will have on you (or you've got the DR), then you can deal as much as 96 damage per round; probably killing them all in... 6 seconds.

Two Words Batman: Holy. Shit.


Okay, my bad, fully optimized feats-wise and tactics-wise (not including gear at all by the way; with gear it would be potentially easier since you could have stuff that gives ), the RoW Barb can rip apart 40 guys about 7 levels lower than them, every 6 seconds.

That's hawt, really, really hawt.

[RandomCasualty]

1185727124[/unixtime]]

So the party Rogue will gradually come to dominate things, but he's frankly more interesting than the Barbarians so maybe that's OK. The key here is that you aren't fighting Dragons or Demons so the fact that you need to get dimensional anchor and web to fight those things doesn't even matter.

Well, the easiest way to compensate for teleporting demons and the like is to place some flavor restrictions on it. Maybe you can bind a demon to a given location if you know its true name. Or use individual plot device incantation rules from Unearthed Arcana to handle it.

I mean, basically you can throw in some plot device to let people deal with escape abilities so they can kill their foes. Flying stuff is dealt with using bows, as one might expect.

[Prak]

and don't forget wish economy for that gear... a couple Candles, wish for mounds of wealth and go commision a staff of 35 or so wishes from a wage mage, or just aquire 10 CoIs and use them concurrently to get +5 to all stats, then wish up mounds of wealth and get a full set of +6 items, giving the barb +11 to his stats. He then uses his staff of wishes to do a Become a New Creature Ritual, and takes the Paragon template, giving him +15 to his stats, ending up at a 56 str. He then wishes up more mounds of wealth and goes to find someone to create for him the most badass weapon to be had(it doesn't much matter what it is so long as it has the energy burst stuff on it...)

[Aktariel]

Thank you for the replies.

I have been reading the threads on this board, and the general sense of the board seems to be that DnD is second or third rate but everything else is as bad or worse.

So I found myself flipping through my books this morning, and without conscious volition began making lists of classes and prestige classes that I would and wouldn't allow in a "lowish" magic/reasonably sane campaign, and I felt a lot less despondent.

That being said, it's time to find a group that'll agree to these "inane" [actual quote] restrictions. [Bard is the pinnacle of arcane casting? OMG t3h suxx0rz!]

[JonSetanta]

Here's a 1 step process:

1. Get all the players drunk. With or without DM drunk, but it helps to all be drunk.

No one will want to play spellcasters because "it's too much work". You won't even care if you play Fighter because it will be too fun doing RP or just sacking a town like villains!
Simple, cheap solution... well, OK maybe $30 for a box of beer or w/e the price is where you live, but that's a small price to pay.
You'll grow so fond of your fucked up character and game that mages will seem like doddering party poopers.
Why cast spells and end an encounter when you can goof around with the crits and fumbles?
Why make wealth when you can attack that orc stronghold for no reason other than the fact that they have loot and you want it?

This is the true nature of D&D. Drunken, stupid raids. Know your roots.

[Yahzi]

Fighters who can't manage to pull their weight even when that weight is measured in kobolds.

[Bigode]

Aside from the touch of genius that is the drinking recommendation, and Frank's quite spot-on suggestion, I do feel there's other way. First off, we know for a fact that anything that tries to nerf magic as a whole WILL have problems with CR-appropriate monsters, because those have crazy random abilities, so, yeah, my approach to monster CRs when choosing foes is "fvck CR, I'll eyeball them to the party" (anyway, I never really buyed into CR as a firm measurement because the moment you have a group with synergy or rules-fu above or below average, CRs go to hell). One one unmarries oneself from CRs, I feel one could:

a) take away and/or modify spells with automatic and/or "anything you want" effects (blasphemy, forcecage, polymorph, shades, wish);

b) chain spellcasters to niches (like everyone else) - so, you might have a sorcerer (who chooses any spells available, but has a really small amount of them) or a beguiler (many spells known, but they're thematically limited);

c) make combat classes that have awesome of their own (ToB mostly fits in as far as I'm concerned) - as examples of what I've been doing, I present the brute (uses incarnum) and gish, which I hope do an interesting job.

In the end, I hope those classes compete with spellcasters that have been kicked in the nuts a couple times, for the sum total of an interesting game up to high levels.

[Dojhit]

Semi relevant link

[JonSetanta]

True, Bigode. Change many monster SLAs to, say, sub-par Evocations and it gives many fights that "oh shit! it's a spell!" feel without risking sudden death to the party healers or warriors.

For a serious nerf, make a spellcaster class for both Sorc and Wizard called Mage.
Give it d8 HP, decent skill points, medium base attack, moderate skill with weapons (like rogue or bard) and ability to cast in armor. This allows them to keep up with warriors.
As drawback, they may only cast spells from a single school. In addition, remove or nerf save-or-dies, and spells like Wish.
Maximum spells cast in a day are limited but refresh by the hour. No more overnight naps after every battle (which is a serious flaw to D&D that MUST GO), so they can keep up with everyone.

This alteration creates a spellcaster fit for videogame-like level bashing.
Many older gamers hate it, but hey... they play civil war re-enactments and debate how obnoxious these 'video game generation kids are ruining our game'.
Seriously, get over it. We 'kids' are the present majority of gamers, and probably the most influx of cash towards keeping gaming industries alive as we know it.
When we want more of a videogame feel to our RPGs, we should get more of a videogame feel to our RPGs.

WOTC is a little slow to realize this but it seems they are waking up to the fact, bit by bit... at a snail's pace.

[Username17]

b) chain spellcasters to niches (like everyone else) - so, you might have a sorcerer (who chooses any spells available, but has a really small amount of them) or a beguiler (many spells known, but they're thematically limited);

O... K.

The Beguiler is thematically limited to "awesome spells" - which is really not a limitation at all. Let's look at his 4th level spells:

• charm monster
  
• confusion
  
• crushing despair
  
• freedom of movement
  
• greater invisibility
  
• greater mirror image
  
• locate creature
  
• mass whelm
  
• phantom battle
  
• rainbow pattern
  
• solid fog

Seriously, what the hell? There's no theme there except "spells I'd like to have." It's a pile of Battlefield Control, Utility, Save-or-Die, and Buffs. And you cast them interchangeably as needed.

-Username17

[Bigode]

Frank, you are right on that, but that doesn't unmake the possiblity of editing the beguiler spells, either on their effects or on the list itself; so, probably I should've been more clear, but meant "like a beguiler" in the sense of "having a theme" - perhaps a theme more specific than the beguiler's; so, not being someone really well-versed in spell-fu, what'd you say about the dread necromancer used as the example (the warmage manages to be currently below what I'd like - I'd look to "Spells that fvcking kill people" as an example)?

[Captain_Bleach]

1185727124[/unixtime]]OK, here's a three-step process to extend levels up to infinity without losing the Barbarian vibe:

1. Ban all the spellcasters except the Ranger and Paladin.
   
   
2. Hand out magic swords and crap like it was candy.
   
   
3. Never throw in any "monsters" over CR 3 or spellcasting NPCs of any kind.

-Username17

Or you can simply try another rule set/RPG that has the appropriate theme that you want. Of course, it could be hard to find a new RPG that is right for you.