Do people actually want a fantasy setting that's different?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, so, both Hastings and Half Price books got a pretty huge shipment of books in and I got the chance to look at other fantasy settings (including urban fantasy) and... it raises a pretty big question.

Is the overall sameness of these settings just a lack of risk/imagination on developers part or is this actually what people want? If it's the latter, then I think a lot of the threads here may have been barking up the wrong tree; instead of redesigning the whole thing from the ground up we should focus more on fixing of what's there.

[Chamomile]

People seemed pretty receptive to the world of Tyria as presented by Guild Wars, and it's fairly non-standard. But do we really have anything past anecdotal evidence to work with?

[PhoneLobster]

People want a fantasy setting that is different.

But they don't want the same different setting as each other.

They do want an established well known different setting. Not just some unknown one from nowhere.

And they don't want to first encounter it in an RPG especially not in D&D, especially not if they are new to D&D/RPGs.

Tolkien everything in the pot fantasy rip off land is here pretty much to stay. It COULD be usurped and replaced with a new and different dominant fantasy setting. But that setting will need to rise to dominance through media OTHER than table top RPGs before it gains enough traction to do so.

I sure as hell hope that will happen. But at this point we are relying largely on a super awesome movie, TV or computer game franchise to get creative. Considering our examples are things like fucking Harry Potter and fucking Dragon Age don't hold your breath.

[shadzar]

Avatar by James Cameron was not that far removed from normal worlds of any age, so the thing most people probably look for is similarity they can relate to.

How different can a setting be, with what all people have already tried, that will allow you to interact with it, without everyone confused as how to respond to something new and never seen before?

All settings will likely be an M class planet or close to it, with similar physics, food chains, etc...and beyond that, there isnt much to change except some flavor, is it?

[DSMatticus]

I played Guild Wars, and could not have pulled the name Tyria out of my head if my life depended on it. I guess I wasn't that interested in the fluff.

I really don't know why people have the drive to replace existing elements of the fiction. Is there any particular reason we have to get rid of elves/dwarves/orcs/goblins, instead of expanding and fleshing out their concept? What are we talking about when we say sameness, anyway? What parts of the sameness bother you?

[Josh_Kablack]

I thought that the pre-3e market research showed that most of the people who bought the books were MCs or aspiring MCs, and that those people generally wanted the game rules to support them making their own games "different".

If that's true, then the likely conclusion is that most of the market wants a fairly standard fantasy setting, but with support for making their own changes to such a setting.

[erik]

What are you considering as being overall same? I thought I'd read lots of different fantasy settings that were... different.

They often share some similarities because some stuff is simply cool, and is thoroughly embedded in our consciousness, but also because it is impossible not to share similarities.

Do you consider the settings in Dresden Files to be the same as Forgotten Realms to be the same as Lord of the Rings to be the same as The Wizard of Oz to be the same as Wheel of Time to be the same as Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone to be the same as Night Angel?

They all seem pretty wildly different to me, though yes, they do share some similarities.

[Swordslinger]

Is the overall sameness of these settings just a lack of risk/imagination on developers part or is this actually what people want? If it's the latter, then I think a lot of the threads here may have been barking up the wrong tree; instead of redesigning the whole thing from the ground up we should focus more on fixing of what's there.

People generally want to play in a world that's familiar to them. There's a reason that there's a great deal of RPGs that come out anytime there's a big fantasy or sci-fi movie that directly have their name on it. You say the Conan or Game of Thrones RPG and people instantly have an idea of the setting.

When the setting is instead something weird, full of weird creatures nobody has ever heard of, most people aren't particularly interested. And I don't blame them, it's hard to create a fleshed-out character in a setting you don't have a great grasp of.

[TheFlatline]

When the setting is instead something weird, full of weird creatures nobody has ever heard of, most people aren't particularly interested. And I don't blame them, it's hard to create a fleshed-out character in a setting you don't have a great grasp of.

See Dark Sun & Planescape. I'd consider those two settings to be pretty drastically different than standard fantasy, even though they're built with more or less standard fantasy settings. However, Planescape was left behind a decade or two ago and Dark Sun was tossed an insulting pittance before being abandoned at birth in 4th ed (though I can't imagine 4th ed and Dark Sun working well together).

Edit (D'oh... hit submit too soon):
I suspect people generally want to play badasses and after 30 years of derivatives, we have a pretty codified idea of what a badass is in fantasy.

[shadzar]

Dark Sun wasnt too far off, with sci-fi movies and book and movies such as Dune, and a few other settings mushed together.

When I first saw Dark Sun, I instantly thought Dune, as it was only 5 years prior that the movie had come out.
Dark Sun really differ solely from being a desert planet, rather than a lush one, and no metal...more barbaric and nomadic, than kingdom based.

I dont see a big disconnect there.

Cant speak much of Planescape, and really wish nobody else ever would again for that matter.

[Swordslinger]

See Dark Sun & Planescape. I'd consider those two settings to be pretty drastically different than standard fantasy, even though they're built with more or less standard fantasy settings. However, Planescape was left behind a decade or two ago and Dark Sun was tossed an insulting pittance before being abandoned at birth in 4th ed (though I can't imagine 4th ed and Dark Sun working well together).

Planescape was a setting designed for hardcore D&D players who were already familiar with demons, devils, modrons and all the other planar stuff. It's not surprising it was left behind. It catered to a minority.

Dark sun was an attempt at a different setting that ended up being rather bland. Really mostly what people remember about it (and it's main draw) was the alternate ability score generation that gave people super inflated stats where you could be a half-giant with 24 strength. Besides that it was a pretty forgettable world, which is why it didn't last long in 4E where they removed the powergaming aspect.

[Wesley Street]

I would posit that 4E Dark Sun got the short-shrift as it was produced prior to the focus shift to Essentials.

Dark Sun was probably the most unique setting a D&D license holder has produced (which isn't saying much) and has a pretty big following for that fact alone. Not Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance big, but significant.

[K]

I think people want a fantasy-setting toolbox, something you can't do when you use mechanics to hammer in some particular kind of play experience.

[Username17]

I think people want a fantasy-setting toolbox, something you can't do when you use mechanics to hammer in some particular kind of play experience.

Every toolbox hammers in a particular kind of play experience. GURPS always feels like GURPS, no matter what the "genre" of the game nominally is. So while you can make "our elves are different", the bare reality is that no matter how weird you make Dark Sun, it's still a D&D setting and is pretty damn similar to Greyhawk in how it plays and what kind of stories you can tell.

-Username17

[Previn]

So what would be an example of an interesting setting? I am kind of surprised that Dark Sun isn't considered interesting (ignoring the 4e version).

[Gx1080]

"Do people actually want a fantasy setting that's different?"

Probably not. Medieval Fantasy tropes are so entrenched in culture that a Tolkien based, kitchen-sink Medieval Fantasy setting is the way to go.

Look at Eberron. Is "different". It didn't took off, despite being pushed hard by WOTC.

[hogarth]

Is the overall sameness of these settings just a lack of risk/imagination on developers part or is this actually what people want?

I think many fantasy RPG GMs want a "kitchen sink" type of setting with a bunch of fairly generic areas glued together (e.g. a medieval Europe-type area, a Japan-type area, a nomadic desert-type area, a primitive jungle-type area, a clockwork inventions-type area, etc.). Then they can ignore the bits that they're not interested in.

[K]

I think people want a fantasy-setting toolbox, something you can't do when you use mechanics to hammer in some particular kind of play experience.

Every toolbox hammers in a particular kind of play experience. GURPS always feels like GURPS, no matter what the "genre" of the game nominally is. So while you can make "our elves are different", the bare reality is that no matter how weird you make Dark Sun, it's still a D&D setting and is pretty damn similar to Greyhawk in how it plays and what kind of stories you can tell.

-Username17

I don't think we have the same definition of "play experience."

I mean, there are lots of stories I can tell in Dark Sun that I can't tell in Greyhawk. For example, the whole Defiler ubiquity in the setting changes a lot of the default assumptions of DnD about how magic gets used, and in that sense the rules are hammering home a certain style of play (specifically, how often you use arcane magic even if you are a Preserver).

That's an example of a mechanic that is hammering home a play experience, and I think it's the thing that turns people off an otherwise generic setting. For example, Earthdawn was a great little system compared to DnD 2e, but it was the setting-specific mechanics that seemed to keep people away from it. Another example is Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed that had several rule improvements over 3e, but the fact that no one could find a Fighter or a Warrior pissed them off despite there being several warrior-ish base classes.

[Fuchs]

I am happy with a generic setting which I can then tweak to fit my style. I'd be more happy with a perfect setting that I do not need to tweak, but the odds of getting that are slim to none.

I don't need stuff like Earthdawn, which is far too specific.

[Swordslinger]

I would posit that 4E Dark Sun got the short-shrift as it was produced prior to the focus shift to Essentials.

Dark Sun was probably the most unique setting a D&D license holder has produced (which isn't saying much) and has a pretty big following for that fact alone. Not Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance big, but significant.

I'd probably give that to Eberron. Eberron did a nice job implementing the steampunk style into the world and still maintaining a classic feel too.

The main problem with Dark Sun is that it's all desert. The world has very little variety, and as other successful campaign worlds have shown us, you need variety. Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk are basically just a random hodgepodge of fantasy settings. You have pirate areas, desert nomad areas, wizard kingdoms, unsettled barbarian wastes and lands of brave knights. People tend to like that stuff.

Dark Sun I just found to be too uniform. Every city is ruled by an evil sorcerer king, all the terrain is desert. Once you played a little of it, you really got a sense of everything the world had to offer.

[infected slut princess]

forgotten realms is retarded.

[TheFlatline]

Dark Sun wasnt too far off, with sci-fi movies and book and movies such as Dune, and a few other settings mushed together.

When I first saw Dark Sun, I instantly thought Dune, as it was only 5 years prior that the movie had come out.
Dark Sun really differ solely from being a desert planet, rather than a lush one, and no metal...more barbaric and nomadic, than kingdom based.

I dont see a big disconnect there.

Cant speak much of Planescape, and really wish nobody else ever would again for that matter.

So I'm curious what fantasy setting you *would* find different. From your earlier posts, it seems like the only setting you'd define as "original" is something that humans can't relate to at all.

Also, Dark Sun has one thing in common with Dune: There's a lot of desert. Beyond that, the setting veered off from a lot of traditional fantasy tropes.

And Planescape kicked ass. It was just... really, really weird compared to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk.

[shadzar]

So I'm curious what fantasy setting you *would* find different. From your earlier posts, it seems like the only setting you'd define as "original" is something that humans can't relate to at all.

Also, Dark Sun has one thing in common with Dune: There's a lot of desert. Beyond that, the setting veered off from a lot of traditional fantasy tropes.

And Planescape kicked ass. It was just... really, really weird compared to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk.

What was so different about Dark Sun? I recall it just being the equivalent of a middle-east type of setting rather than European.

All these settings are still primarily based around theocracy and a feudal system.

eBerron, still had for the most part the root setting concept, then added steampunk.

That is why I compared Dune to Dark Sun...not jsut the desert, but unless mistaken, the houses of the Lansraad save for the emperor, were the lords who were granted land, such that Harkonan and Atredis kept be given Arakis at different times...

(Dune spelling long since forgotten cause haven't read it in a while)

As the concept of this thread states, since most all settings still function on that level of theocracy and feudalism, what would be different is something not based on those, but then would also in turn NOT be D&D, as many argue the presence of deities in 4th is pointless other than a keyword for a power or such, as they dont really do anything (like some ages of DragonLance), or have any other purpose to be there.

BirthRight and Red Steel had strange changes with bloodlines, and such, but still it was based on the same feudal system...

So if you want something different, I would say a non-feudal system for the setting would really be different. Democracy, Socialism, what have you; but then what role do gods play in that system?

[fbmf]

So I'm curious what fantasy setting you *would* find different. From your earlier posts, it seems like the only setting you'd define as "original" is something that humans can't relate to at all.

Also, Dark Sun has one thing in common with Dune: There's a lot of desert. Beyond that, the setting veered off from a lot of traditional fantasy tropes.

And Planescape kicked ass. It was just... really, really weird compared to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk.

What was so different about Dark Sun? I recall it just being the equivalent of a middle-east type of setting rather than European.

Are you think of Al-Qadim?

Game On,
fbmf

[Chamomile]

From what I've heard of Dark Sun, it is terribly samey. It probably could've used some savage jungles, frozen wastes, Celtic-y woodlands, and so forth to provide some variety.