Space combat hangups

[jadagul]

For what it's worth, the webcomic Schlock Mercenary has a take on easy and instant FTL which allows FTL missiles but doesn't make them dominant. Basically, you can warp stuff around instantaneously whenever you want, but it's also pretty easy to put up a field that blocks warping. So if you're a military ship and your target is defenseless you can just pop a missile on board, but in that case victory should be pretty easy regardless.

[Endovior]

Imagine 2 enemy ships detect each other at a massive range, such as a thousand kilometers. Both start lauching attacks that may take minutes to intercept their target. Both ships start moving, possibly toward each other, launching waves of attacks and countermeasures for respective ranges.

Mathfail! 1000 km is 0.00333564095 light seconds. That's not "massive range", that's point-blank range. Accordingly, ranges are generally vast, and barring a sort of VR-interface technology that grants organic beings a sort of time dilation factor, combat is entirely between computers, and the organics involved find out how it went after it's over.

[fectin]

Imagine 2 enemy ships detect each other at a massive range, such as a thousand kilometers. Both start lauching attacks that may take minutes to intercept their target. Both ships start moving, possibly toward each other, launching waves of attacks and countermeasures for respective ranges.

Mathfail! 1000 km is 0.00333564095 light seconds. That's not "massive range", that's point-blank range. Accordingly, ranges are generally vast, and barring a sort of VR-interface technology that grants organic beings a sort of time dilation factor, combat is entirely between computers, and the organics involved find out how it went after it's over.

Sure, if you can operate at light-speed.
Lasers are defeatable with high albedo. Crazy particle cannons, and relativistic particle clouds are defeatable with a false hull and lead armor. Crazy induction rays are defeatable with a Faraday cage. These are all mutually compatible. Anything kinetic at that speed needs its own special consideration, since there is no standard set of assumptions for relativistic munitions.

And that's giving you credit for aiming, which is distinctly not guaranteed,

Overall, who cares how many light seconds it is?

[TheFlatline]

I've actually considered that you *don't* want relativistic particles because they may in fact just punch through the hull and make a molecule sized perfect hole in the hull, the way a tornado can put a stick through a brick wall.

You want that kinetic energy to dissipate into the target, not carry the projectile clean through the target.

[Lokathor]

Light based attacks don't move at the speed of light guys, they just move at the speed of really fast bullets. I've seen like a million movies so I'm pretty sure I'm an expert at science.

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/star_ ... e_L-01.jpg
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tactics/stfc02.jpg
http://www.desktopwallpaperhd.com/wallpapers/1/1819.jpg
http://www.sg1archive.com/forums/upload ... 118833.jpg
http://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress ... ish-ii.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/arti ... _med_1.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/image ... 1_Art1.jpg

if you really want to have space battles with long ranges and lasers and "realistic" stuff, then try this series on for size:
http://myanimelist.net/anime/342/Starship_Operators

[hyzmarca]

I've actually considered that you *don't* want relativistic particles because they may in fact just punch through the hull and make a molecule sized perfect hole in the hull, the way a tornado can put a stick through a brick wall.

You want that kinetic energy to dissipate into the target, not carry the projectile clean through the target.

Particle beams really don't work that way. At the scale of interactions your the result won't be a hole, it will be an increase in temperature and probably ionization, depending on the particle. A particle gun is a radiation gun.

[Vebyast]

Particle beams really don't work that way. At the scale of interactions your the result won't be a hole, it will be an increase in temperature and probably ionization, depending on the particle. A particle gun is a radiation gun.

Exactly. Since we're talking about relativistic impacts, it won't be probably ionization; it'll be a spray of hundreds or thousands of deadly high-energy particles, most which will eventually come to rest somewhere in the target's mass. For a good example, check out this simulated result from the LHC; every one of those orange tracks is an ionizing particle thousands of times more dangerous than an alpha particle. We also have a ton of experimental evidence that this is incredibly nasty radiation, since we do it every time we shut down a particle accelerator ring.

[TheFlatline]

I've actually considered that you *don't* want relativistic particles because they may in fact just punch through the hull and make a molecule sized perfect hole in the hull, the way a tornado can put a stick through a brick wall.

You want that kinetic energy to dissipate into the target, not carry the projectile clean through the target.

Particle beams really don't work that way. At the scale of interactions your the result won't be a hole, it will be an increase in temperature and probably ionization, depending on the particle. A particle gun is a radiation gun.

I was thinking more of a rail gun or something similar firing a pellet at 99% of c. I actually don't know if it'd shed enough kinetic energy passing through a hull to do more damage than just punching a simple hole.

[Endovior]

Light based attacks don't move at the speed of light guys, they just move at the speed of really fast bullets. I've seen like a million movies so I'm pretty sure I'm an expert at science.

>>Light doesn't move at the speed of light.

[Zinegata]

Regarding the OP...

Read Atomic Rockets. Real space combat will be terribly, terribly boring and will largely involve using a rocket's thrusters as a weapon against enemy ships.

[erik]

A counter to light based (i.e. lasers) weaponry could be cloaking tech that manipulates electromagnetic fields to bend light around it.

Mass detectors could still locate invisible ships p'raps, and then they'd go about launching other crap, mass drivers, radiation ejectors, or something. I don't know if the principles for bending light around an object could be used to deflect other radiation as well.

[Grek]

Stealth in space is unpossible: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/spacew ... #nostealth

[A Man In Black]

>>Light doesn't move at the speed of light.

Homestuck image macro

The point is, fuck science. Fuck it in the ear. If you want to shoot lasers at each other and also missiles, then just have lasers and missiles, whatever.

[Winnah]

Mathfail! 1000 km is 0.00333564095 light seconds. That's not "massive range", that's point-blank range. Accordingly, ranges are generally vast, and barring a sort of VR-interface technology that grants organic beings a sort of time dilation factor, combat is entirely between computers, and the organics involved find out how it went after it's over.

Check your math. 2 objects both capable of moving at a speed that approaches or may even exceed light intercept each other and begin a dogfight. Any munitions without intelligence are going to be hitting the space where the other ship was, not where it is.

Without some kind of tech that allows you to ignore relativistic effects or channel attacks though some tech babble bullshit like dimensional folding, minutes is a generous figure. Oh yeah. Go fuck yourself.

[hyzmarca]

I've actually considered that you *don't* want relativistic particles because they may in fact just punch through the hull and make a molecule sized perfect hole in the hull, the way a tornado can put a stick through a brick wall.

You want that kinetic energy to dissipate into the target, not carry the projectile clean through the target.

Particle beams really don't work that way. At the scale of interactions your the result won't be a hole, it will be an increase in temperature and probably ionization, depending on the particle. A particle gun is a radiation gun.

I was thinking more of a rail gun or something similar firing a pellet at 99% of c. I actually don't know if it'd shed enough kinetic energy passing through a hull to do more damage than just punching a simple hole.

Read up on hypervelocity impacts. At those speeds, everything explodes. There are no exceptions.


Incidentally, this is why whipple shields work.

[hogarth]

In the Known Space universe, there are not one, not two, but three nigh-invulnerable materials you can make ships out of.

Wikipedia says that GP hulls are vulnerable to antimatter[.]

Yes, that's probably why I said "antimatter is the ultimate weapon".

[tzor]

>>Light doesn't move at the speed of light.

Actually ... it doesn't. Sooner or later a photon is going to hit something, typically an atom. The atom absorbs the photon and gets excited. Then the atom emits the photon and returns to the normal state. Since this process takes a finite amount of time, the result is that in any media the actual transmission of light will take place at a speed below that of C.

Consult your CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics for more information.

[tzor]

Stealth in space is unpossible

The article doesn't consider the effects of gravity slings. Yes, there never is a gas giant when you need one, but you can use them to set up non powered glide paths to where you want to go.

[Vebyast]

Check your math. 2 objects both capable of moving at a speed that approaches or may even exceed light intercept each other and begin a dogfight. Any munitions without intelligence are going to be hitting the space where the other ship was, not where it is.

If you're fucking science in the ear, relativistic dogfights might be kind of cool. If ships can accelerate up to relativistic velocities in time roughly similar to the time it takes for their ammunition to reach the other target, the dogfight suddenly has to take Lorentz transformations (time, length) into account. I wonder how you'd model that in a P&P system.

The article doesn't consider the effects of gravity slings. Yes, there never is a gas giant when you need one, but you can use them to set up non powered glide paths to where you want to go.

Stealth in space is still unpossible. Even if you're completely unpowered, you're still a black body radiating at a temperature several kelvin above the cosmic background, and that means that they can find you with a single sweep in the infrared spectrum. We can do one of those sweeps in a matter of hours.

In the Known Space universe, there are not one, not two, but three nigh-invulnerable materials you can make ships out of.

Wikipedia says that GP hulls are vulnerable to antimatter[.]

Yes, that's probably why I said "antimatter is the ultimate weapon".

Yep, and past about .8c everything is packing its own rest mass in kinetic energy and might as well be antimatter. Past .9c things start actually generating antimatter when they run into stuff.

[tzor]

2 objects both capable of moving at a speed that approaches or may even exceed light intercept each other and begin a dogfight. Any munitions without intelligence are going to be hitting the space where the other ship was, not where it is.

First of all, the difference between "space battles" and space battles involving ships that are moving at very high psol is like comparing a 1st level D&D combat with a 20th level D&D combat. In the first place you can't ignore specific relativity, and in the second place you can't ignore general relativity. The latter really sucks; any change in your velocity vector results in a force that is just like gravity and at these speeds any practical combat related maneuvers would result in excessively fatal forces on everyone in the ship. (But don't worry, getting to that speed probably already killed the crew.)

Given that, these vectors ain't chainging. If you know where it was and it's velocity vector you have a good idea where it will be when your projectile arrives at the location. Of course you are literally two ships passing in the night because it will take that long to actually do a 180 degree maneuver once you make the initial pass.

Seriously, it's harder to hand wave high psol flight than it is to handwave FTL mechanics. The fastest "science-fiction" star ship (defining science fiction as that which flows from real science) required exploding nuclear weapons and only got to 10 psol.

[tzor]

Stealth in space is still unpossible. Even if you're completely unpowered, you're still a black body radiating at a temperature several kelvin above the cosmic background, and that means that they can find you with a single sweep in the infrared spectrum. We can do one of those sweeps in a matter of hours.

Well, actually, you don't have to be, although it's really nasty. You could easily be a white body. The first disadvantage is you become a perfect mirror so you shine up on every active radar system. (You also reflect every light emitter that hits you.) The second disadvantage is you have no way to radiate heat, so you are going to need a system to store it.

By the way, in case you don't realize it, space is filled with massive black bodies all around you. They are called stars and they are massively hotter than you are (at least I hope so).

[hyzmarca]

By the way, in case you don't realize it, space is filled with massive black bodies all around you. They are called stars and they are massively hotter than you are (at least I hope so).

The problem with that is that space is huge. Stars are very far away and most of space effectively empty.

It's highly unlikely that any detection system would mistake a spaceship 2 light minutes away for a star 2 years away. Even hiding directly in front of the sun doesn't work, because there are filters to deal with that.

[Winnah]

I would expect space battles to be a little more complex than simply parking your ship in front of your target and firing photon torpedoes.

Also, why can't vectors be altered? Why is the deal with straight lines? High velocity and acceleration is already assumed in this little thought exercise, being able to make rapid course corrections in transit to avoid objects in space would kind of be a neccesity. Otherwise your FTL starship is toast as soon as it encounters it's first dust cloud.

Logically, ship agility would be one of the first countermeasures that defence industries would also be working on. With that in mind, a projectile that can make course corrections in transit would be superior to one that has it's course determined at point of origin.

[KaNT]

If you want your ships to have more options than just "Laser" give them several types of energy based weapons. Lasers are a good start, Plasma is another. Gamma Rays are always a solid choice.

Give them a whole array of energy weapons that do different things. One weapon could be short range but pack a serious punch. Another could be long range but have either damage or fire rate issues, then you could have a very rapid fire type weapon used for shooting down enemy fighters.

As for missile based weapons, they would always have a place for planetary bombardment. As such, they would only be carried on specific ship classifications

[tzor]

The problem with that is that space is huge. Stars are very far away and most of space effectively empty.

Space, from the point of view of the observer is rather finite, to be precise it is 360% in two orthogonial directions. In fact, if it wasn't for the finite "distance" of the universe, in terms of the Big Bang, the average night time sky seen from earth would be three times as bright as the current sky is on the middle of a cloudless day.

The milky way makes my IR eyes hurt.

The Spitzer Space Telescope seen against the infrared sky. The band of light is the glowing dust emission from the Milky Way galaxy seen at 100 microns (as seen by the IRAS/COBE missions).The disk of the Milky Way near the Rho Ophiuchi star formation region extends behind Spitzer.

Here is a IR hubble shot, space is sooo large our "view" of it can get very crowded indeed.

So you got billions and billions of point sources to spectrally analyze and motion detect to see if they are moving or not and you have to do this all over your spherical field of vision. Good luck.