Water Treatment Spells

[K]

You can't hollow it out or move any of it... I guess you'd be living in its frozen lungs and gut, then?

Well, you could kill it, carve its insides as you like, raise it as an undead and then put it in stasis.

edit: or maybe flesh to stone, carve it out, stone to flesh and a quick temporal stasis before it dies?

The first one is a good idea, but the second one means that dispelling the effect results in the Tarrasque dying pretty much immediately from extensive internal wounds, thus defeating the purpose of living inside an impenetrable fortress that will try to kill you if you make it penetrable again.

The Tarrasque can't die unless you cast Wish. Feel free to core it like an apple.

[Chamomile]

Well, yes, but it still won't be trying to kill you. It'll be unconscious for at least half an hour while it regenerates, which would make for a really interesting time limit on a dungeon, but is sub-optimal for purposes of dramatically reshaping the world with magic.

[fectin]

So, can you gate in a colossal frog instead? I'm all for using the tarrasque, but anything large enough should work.

[RadiantPhoenix]

So, can you gate in a colossal frog instead?

Only if you're chaotic; if you're lawful, you have to stick with robots.

[Prak]

Actually, I like the stone to flesh idea. Turn the tarrasque to stone, shape as desired, preferably through stone shape so you're not doing any actual damage, then craft a contingent temporal stasis, (contingency: when target becomes a creature again), and cast stone to flesh.

Edit: Bonus Points for making it's heart your four poster bed.

[Vebyast]

Am I the only one considering making fortresses out of creatures in a temporal stasis?

Forget the classic fortress of bones and skulls, someone could have a fortress made of slaves/war prisoners in temporal stasis.

that give a total new meaning to "human shield"

I'll see your throne of bones and raise you an impregnable castle constructed entirely from the still-living bodies of my enemies, each cursed to forever relive the instant of their final, ignominious failure.

[Just another user]

You can't hollow it out or move any of it... I guess you'd be living in its frozen lungs and gut, then?

Well, you could kill it, carve its insides as you like, raise it as an undead and then put it in stasis.

edit: or maybe flesh to stone, carve it out, stone to flesh and a quick temporal stasis before it dies?

The first one is a good idea, but the second one means that dispelling the effect results in the Tarrasque dying pretty much immediately from extensive internal wounds, thus defeating the purpose of living inside an impenetrable fortress that will try to kill you if you make it penetrable again.

as mentioned a tarrasque is essentially immortal, but even with other creatures I think you can do it if you are quick enough or time it right.

Beside doesn't a petrified creature still count as a creature and so would be still affected by temporal stasis? Petrified it is a Condition, after all.

[Chamomile]

Again, the point isn't that the creature is still technically alive but rather that it is alive and will immediately try to kill anyone who takes it out of stasis. The Tarrasque may regenerate eventually after it's been turned into a theme park, but that gives attackers 30-60 minutes before it's even awake to do whatever it is they need to do inside it, and that's a long time in terms of a military operation.

[Prak]

hence why I said turn it to stone, use stone shape, then turn it back to flesh and TS it.

[Vebyast]

Hmm. Going back to animated objects for a tick, if you can cast "animate colossal object", what's the biggest thing you can animate? "Colossal" is defined only as "64 feet or more", so where does "more" top out? If you pump your CL up high enough (we're talking The Wish and The Word levels here), could you turn animated coastlines into indestructible seawalls and animated valleys into mile-tall dams?

[Lago PARANOIA]

That isn't infinite use, that's "until it runs out of charges" or "as many days as I have," which is a very significant difference from the level of chain-binding efreeti or having as many wishes as you can cast. As far as public works projects go, that's just an extra flexible spell slot that will eventually burn out on you some day. An aspiring civil magineer would be better off with a pearl of power than this item. (You'd get more traction suggesitng limited wish at-will, which is non-epic and actually does break things.)

Who cares if it's a 1/day object? It's unlimited over a large enough timeframe. And it's not like it's uselessly unlimited like an 'infinite dollar lottery' that awards 1 dollar a year. Considering the effects that miracle grants it's more like an 'infinite dollar lottery' that awards 1 billion dollars a day. Yes, it's not infinite money whenever you need it, but except for extreme edge-case situations it may as well be.

So your point is completely noted and completely valid (even if your attempts to paint an extreme dichotomy of "no custom items or all custom items" is bullshit).

Ha. Custom magical items break the game even when not pushed to their limit, so much that no character optimization board will even consider them. You'd have a point if I was trying to ban 'fire seed' (a similarly problematic spell) but you as may well be telling me 'there are non-abusive uses for Spelldancer so it should be allowed'. Nice try.

But there are also lots of tables where a DM would allow goodberry but not limited wish, and at those tables the goodberry strategy is relevant and your bitching isn't. Let's just hear both and put a steroid asterisk next to one of them.

If you're going to use the 'some tables will allow this caveat and some won't' then the whole project is a waste of time, because some tables will let people have an At-Will Wish Item Artifact for free. I only care about solutions where the DM has to invoke rule zero to shoot it down. Custom shit is not one of those things, especially considering the myriad problems custom magical items bring to the table when used honestly.

[Vebyast]

Lago: Some tables draw the line well on the side of complete rules-as-intended legality. For example, I've played at tables that variously ban divine metamagic, thought bottle, any item or SLA that casts or emulates a spell that costs XP, explicitly-allowed Wishes, Miracle, Blasphemy/Holy Word, Slime Wave, and Nightsticks. Since your argument seems to be that we should be using only things that are unambiguously acceptable, where is your line now? Do you take the argmin over every table in existence, or do you compromise somewhere? If you compromise, where, and why there?

[Prak]

Hmm. Going back to animated objects for a tick, if you can cast "animate colossal object", what's the biggest thing you can animate? "Colossal" is defined only as "64 feet or more", so where does "more" top out? If you pump your CL up high enough (we're talking The Wish and The Word levels here), could you turn animated coastlines into indestructible seawalls and animated valleys into mile-tall dams?

Well, conceivably one could go into ELH's virtual size classes, but I'm really not sure there's much of an equivalency. If you really wanted to, you could say that Colossal is 64-128', and Colossal+ is 128' and up. Other systems based around d20 have created the Awesome size for much the same reason. Basically, every level gives you the ability to animate 4' of object, and you have to have the full limit of a size category to animate something of that size (except colossal, because it has no limit).

So, that's probably the easiest way to do it, say that it actually animates about 4^3' of object per caster level, if you want to add a hurdle to animating coast lines and such (though I'm really not sure what an animate coast line would even be like...)

[DSMatticus]

Who cares if it's a 1/day object? It's unlimited over a large enough timeframe.

Meaningless. So is an 8th level pearl of power, and for the purposes of this discussion (civil engineering through magic), it's almost exactly as useful. But since giving a player an 8th level pearl of power doesn't significantly alter the course of this discussion, neither does your 1/day wish.

Custom magical items break the game even when not pushed to their limit, so much that no character optimization board will even consider them.

Bullshit. 1/day gloves of magic missile at CL 1. Am I breaking the game? No? Then it stands to reason there are applications of the custom magic rules that work just fine.

If you're going to use the 'some tables will allow this caveat and some won't' then the whole project is a waste of time, because some tables will let people have an At-Will Wish Item Artifact for free.

Strawman. I say, "value a strategy based on its likelihood of being acceptable at a table," and you respond with, "what if there's some really ridiculous tables that allow fucking anything?"

I only care about solutions where the DM has to invoke rule zero to shoot it down.

Other people exist and frequently care about other things: live with it.

---

As far as I can tell, your position is that "if X leads to broken results in application Y, all applications of X must be banned." So your argument leads to: "planar binding an efreeti can ruin the game, so no, you can't planar bind that lemure." If that's how your table runs, fine, whatever, but at my table planar binding still exists and is nerfed completely differently.

[Kaelik]

Lago: Some tables draw the line well on the side of complete rules-as-intended legality. For example, I've played at tables that variously ban divine metamagic, thought bottle, any item or SLA that casts or emulates a spell that costs XP, explicitly-allowed Wishes, Miracle, Blasphemy/Holy Word, Slime Wave, and Nightsticks. Since your argument seems to be that we should be using only things that are unambiguously acceptable, where is your line now? Do you take the argmin over every table in existence, or do you compromise somewhere? If you compromise, where, and why there?

Okay WTF! Why Slime Wave. No really. Everything else I understand, and would change or ban myself, but why fucking Slime Wave?

[K]

Hmm. Going back to animated objects for a tick, if you can cast "animate colossal object", what's the biggest thing you can animate? "Colossal" is defined only as "64 feet or more", so where does "more" top out? If you pump your CL up high enough (we're talking The Wish and The Word levels here), could you turn animated coastlines into indestructible seawalls and animated valleys into mile-tall dams?

Well, conceivably one could go into ELH's virtual size classes, but I'm really not sure there's much of an equivalency. If you really wanted to, you could say that Colossal is 64-128', and Colossal+ is 128' and up. Other systems based around d20 have created the Awesome size for much the same reason. Basically, every level gives you the ability to animate 4' of object, and you have to have the full limit of a size category to animate something of that size (except colossal, because it has no limit).

So, that's probably the easiest way to do it, say that it actually animates about 4^3' of object per caster level, if you want to add a hurdle to animating coast lines and such (though I'm really not sure what an animate coast line would even be like...)

Mmmm, I just had an idea.

Use stone shape to make a small model of a castle. Animate it with animate object, then cast Giant Form on it to get it to Colossal size, then temporal stasis to make it invulnerable and keep the effects on it permanent.

Almost instant castle for the 5k to cast temporal stasis, and it's indestructible.

The only issue is whether the temporal stasis would keep the effects on it in stasis as well.

[Prak]

That'd be a hell of a market item. "Instant Castle."

I could see stores selling them, small stone models of castles, with a magic trigger, basically a stick, that you activate by breaking which, in succession, casts those spells. That'd be a hell of a thing, and good profit depending on what it sold for.

[Chamomile]

Wouldn't dispelling those conditions be a rather effective way to kill everything inside the castle immediately?

[DSMatticus]

The only issue is whether the temporal stasis would keep the effects on it in stasis as well.

It rather explicitly says time for the creature stops, and durations are frequently measured in units of time, so I think that's in the clear.

Wouldn't dispelling those conditions be a rather effective way to kill everything inside the castle immediately?

Horrifically and hilariously.

Okay WTF! Why Slime Wave. No really. Everything else I understand, and would change or ban myself, but why fucking Slime Wave?

I'm curious myself. I've seen it used elsewhere as though it were something broken, and now I finally went and looked it up and I can't figure out why.

[Grek]

1d6 con damage per round for 1 round/level? I can pretty clearly see how that gets banned.

[Vebyast]

Wouldn't dispelling those conditions be a rather effective way to kill everything inside the castle immediately?

Horrifically and hilariously.

That would be a pretty messy death.

On the other hand, Enlarge Person has a constrained creature make a strength check against its enclosure; if the strength check fails the creature just stops growing without taking any damage. It'd probably get stopped by sturdy doors or tables, and anybody wearing plate and a helmet is safe.

Of course, there's also the question of whether you can dispel anything inside a TS without having to dispel the TS first.

1d6 con damage per round for 1 round/level? I can pretty clearly see how that gets banned.

Not just that. It's 1d6 con damage per round per five-foot square the creature occupies, and it's area-effect. It also eats doors, enemy equipment, traps, things that have magic immunity, and anything else the DM throws at you. It's great for making shortcuts.

[Kaelik]

1d6 con damage per round for 1 round/level? I can pretty clearly see how that gets banned.

How? It's a very small area, reflex negates spell that if you fail the reflex save does 1d6 con damage per round and you can still get rid of it with fire/cold/sunlight/or a second level spell.

So first you have to find something that is subject to ability damage at level 13. Then you have to explain to me how either:

There are so damn many of them that you couldn't possibly kill them all in the 10+ rounds it will take to kill one of them. And you can escape, and they have no ability to save themselves, and it will effect enough of them to matter.

And you have no other AoE spell with an actual combat winning effect at level 13, like an AoE stun or Nausea or something.

I mean really, it takes rounds and rounds to kill anyone at all, and then it only kills people who failed a save. Just use a Save or Die.

[Vebyast]

1d6 con damage per round for 1 round/level? I can pretty clearly see how that gets banned.

How? It's a very small area, reflex negates spell that if you fail the reflex save does 1d6 con damage per round and you can still get rid of it with fire/cold/sunlight/or a second level spell.
[...]
Just use a Save or Die.

Slime Wave is a Save or Die. First, it's 1d6 per round per five-foot square. The average dragon takes something like 9d6 con/round, for example. Second, if you use a round getting rid of it, you've probably lost. Third, con damage does way more than just kill things directly; it also lowers fort saves, total hit points (at a dramatic rate), some skills, and plenty of monster DCs. Fourth, it destroys equipment.

Additionally, it's a brilliant utility spell. As I said, cast it and watch every obstacle in the room vanish.

[Kaelik]

Slime Wave is a Save or Die. First, it's 1d6 per round per five-foot square. The average dragon takes something like 9d6 con/round, for example. Second, if you use a round getting rid of it, you've probably lost. Third, con damage does way more than just kill things directly; it also lowers fort saves, total hit points (at a dramatic rate), some skills, and plenty of monster DCs. Fourth, it destroys equipment.

Additionally, it's a brilliant utility spell. As I said, cast it and watch every obstacle in the room vanish.

You are full of shit. It specifically says each creature gets 1 patch on them. They then use a standard action to Teleport away and a move action to scrape it off, or they use a standard action to scrape it off and a move action to move to outside the area of the slime wave, and then you spent a round doing 1d6 con damage to them with a 7th level spell and they are back where they started, except there is a field of green slime in the way.

It's like using a 7th level spell to Quicken an AoE that does 3.5 con damage on a failed reflex save. You are not doing shit.

You are predicating this on the idea that you are casting it on a creature that will stand very still and not move out of the Green slime on the floor, and does not have access to flight, teleport, or any other means of not being in the green slime.

Basically the only time it's worth it is against a bunch of equipment users, and then only because it destroys their equipment, which is bad for you anyway, because if you could count on them failing a save, you could have just used an AoE save or lose.

1) You are wrong about how much damage it does because you are not reading the spell.

2) You are wrong about what happens if they spend a round getting it off, because it's actually not that big a deal, because after they get it off, they have like a -1 or 2 to Fort saves at the cost of your 7th level spell. This is not winning. You took up the round of half your opponents with your highest level spell. And that's assuming they actually remove it, when they can just kill you while flying and taking only 1d6 con damage, and then again next round.

3) You are wrong about how useful it is to cast it in a room and destroy all the metal, a fighter with his fist can destroy all the metal too, and he can also destroy stone.

[RadiantPhoenix]

It specifically says each creature gets 1 patch on them.

Actually, it's "each creature is covered with one patch of green slime for every 5 feet of its face." which, while not amazing, is still situationally useful against big stuff that's susceptible to CON damage.