Water Treatment Spells

Count Arioch the 28th · Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:51 am

According to Spell Compendium, it's one patch per creature, not one patch per 5' face. What is your source?

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:52 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:According to Spell Compendium, it's one patch per creature, not one patch per 5' face. What is your source?

Defenders of the Faith; I wasn't aware that it was in the spell compendium. The spell compendium version does, in fact, seem to suck.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:53 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:According to Spell Compendium, it's one patch per creature, not one patch per 5' face. What is your source?
Defenders of the Faith; I wasn't aware that it was in the spell compendium.

Yeah, Spell Compendium reprinted and nerfed a lot of spells. Pre Spell Compendium Fleshshiver was super fucking baller too.

But if it was per 5' face, it wouldn't only be against big creatures, everyone's been doing the math on that wrong. If it's per face a standard medium humanoid would get 10 patches. A Large (Tall) creature like an Ogre would get 32 patches.

Vebyast · Post by **Vebyast** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:13 am

edit: Should have known we were reading out of different books. Damn WotC.

Kaelik wrote:But if it was per 5' face, it wouldn't only be against big creatures, everyone's been doing the math on that wrong. If it's per face a standard medium humanoid would get 10 patches. A Large (Tall) creature like an Ogre would get 32 patches.

We didn't know what face meant, assumed they didn't mean a constant 4 or the perimeter or surface area of the creature's space or volume, and went with what seemed like the closest thing we had to the green slime itself, which was the area the creature occupied.

Anyway, that was a fun derail, and I agree with you - Slime Wave is in no way overpowered and should not be banned. The original point, that there are plenty of tables that ban variously insane and completely legal things, still stands.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:46 am

It's also in 'Hordes of the Abyss' unnerfed.

But yeah, face is like a completely undefined thing. They probably meant 'space,' which is in every monster's stat block and leads to semi-reasonable results. And while it's kind of irrelevant, whatever face is meant to measure it's worth noting it gives units in feet, not square feet or cubic feet. That basically limits what they meant down to single sidelength, perimeter of the creature's space, or sum of the edges of the creature's 3d space, which for a medium creature is 1:4:12 patches and for a large creature is 2:8:24 patches (I think) and so on. Pretty much any other metric is in square or cubic feet, which makes no sense.

K · Post by K » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:42 am

DSMatticus wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Wouldn't dispelling those conditions be a rather effective way to kill everything inside the castle immediately?
Horrifically and hilariously.

Not necessarily. I mean, there is not reason to believe that you wouldn't simply burst free of the castle.

I mean, I wouldn't make the castle out of adamantine or anything. Considering that it's invulnerable, there is no reason to not make it out of something weak, or simply make it so that it is designed to break apart when it gets smaller.

Vebyast · Post by **Vebyast** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:54 am

K wrote:Considering that it's invulnerable, there is no reason to not make it out of something weak, or simply make it so that it is designed to break apart when it gets smaller.

Origami castle - since you're going to be animating it anyway, just have it fold itself!

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:30 am

I'm pretty sure that's outside the skill of an animated object, Veb.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:59 am

Prak_Anima wrote:I'm pretty sure that's outside the skill of an animated object, Veb.

Assisting you in folding itself, however, probably isn't.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:21 pm

K wrote: Not necessarily. I mean, there is not reason to believe that you wouldn't simply burst free of the castle.

I mean, I wouldn't make the castle out of adamantine or anything. Considering that it's invulnerable, there is no reason to not make it out of something weak, or simply make it so that it is designed to break apart when it gets smaller.

Well, using Stone Shape and any kind of stone that would squish your brains instead of breaking in half if thrown at you, the stone wouldn't break apart until all available space inside of it was jam-packed with gore. The origami castle would work better. Falling is still problematic, but it likely won't be more than ~50 feet, which is peanuts damage to higher level characters even if they don't have some way of negating it entirely.

K · Post by K » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:15 pm

Chamomile wrote:
K wrote: Not necessarily. I mean, there is not reason to believe that you wouldn't simply burst free of the castle.

I mean, I wouldn't make the castle out of adamantine or anything. Considering that it's invulnerable, there is no reason to not make it out of something weak, or simply make it so that it is designed to break apart when it gets smaller.
Well, using Stone Shape and any kind of stone that would squish your brains instead of breaking in half if thrown at you, the stone wouldn't break apart until all available space inside of it was jam-packed with gore. The origami castle would work better. Falling is still problematic, but it likely won't be more than ~50 feet, which is peanuts damage to higher level characters even if they don't have some way of negating it entirely.

By the time it got small enough to crush you it'd be a much smaller castle too with a lot less stone, and any furniture you put in the castle would be crashing through the walls as well and destroying the overall structural integrity.

I mean, smashing through a centimeter of stone is not hard. It's the smashing through several inches that is the problem.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:36 pm

Actually, 1 nanometer thick stone is really easy to break.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:40 pm

K wrote:-snip-

Hm. This is a good point, but how thick would the stone be at the point when you can no longer fit inside whatever room you were in? Considering the walls are likely something like two feet thick when at full size, there are several rooms that would still have 3-4 inches of stone to break through by the time either the walls or your bones have to break to make things fit.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:01 pm

Chamomile wrote:Considering the walls are likely something like two feet thick when at full size, there are several rooms that would still have 3-4 inches of stone to break through by the time either the walls or your bones have to break to make things fit.

Why would they be two feet thick?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:06 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Considering the walls are likely something like two feet thick when at full size, there are several rooms that would still have 3-4 inches of stone to break through by the time either the walls or your bones have to break to make things fit.
Why would they be two feet thick?

If you want a traditional castle, you have thick walls that would theoretically be difficult to penetrate even if they weren't magically invulnerable. If you don't want a traditional castle, the invulnerable origami fortress is already on the table.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:57 pm

Chamomile wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Considering the walls are likely something like two feet thick when at full size, there are several rooms that would still have 3-4 inches of stone to break through by the time either the walls or your bones have to break to make things fit.
Why would they be two feet thick?
If you want a traditional castle, you have thick walls that would theoretically be difficult to penetrate even if they weren't magically invulnerable. If you don't want a traditional castle, the invulnerable origami fortress is already on the table.

If you don't want a traditional castle, but you do want to make your castle out of stone, say because Stoneshape exists, and you can use it, but you didn't take 20 ranks in craft oragami castle, then you can have a castle with walls that are 1 centimeter thick at full size, and you can still have it made of stone.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:00 pm

Kaelik wrote:If you don't want a traditional castle, but you do want to make your castle out of stone, say because Stoneshape exists, and you can use, but you didn't take 20 ranks in craft oragami castle, then you can have a castle with walls that are 1 centimeter thick at full size, and you can still have it made of stone.

The castle would then collapse pretty much immediately at normal size, because its walls would be about 1/100th of a centimeter thick and could thus be knocked over by a stiff breeze unless it's made out of adamantine. Also, the animate paper folds itself into an origami castle.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:19 pm

Chamomile wrote:The castle would then collapse pretty much immediately at normal size, because its walls would be about 1/100th of a centimeter thick and could thus be knocked over by a stiff breeze unless it's made out of adamantine.

Which would totally matter if it weren't under Temporal Stasis.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:24 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Chamomile wrote:The castle would then collapse pretty much immediately at normal size, because its walls would be about 1/100th of a centimeter thick and could thus be knocked over by a stiff breeze unless it's made out of adamantine.
Which would totally matter if it weren't under Temporal Stasis.

It's not. The castle doesn't go under Temporal Stasis until after it's been enlarged, otherwise you couldn't enlarge it.

K · Post by K » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:29 pm

Chamomile wrote:
Kaelik wrote:If you don't want a traditional castle, but you do want to make your castle out of stone, say because Stoneshape exists, and you can use, but you didn't take 20 ranks in craft oragami castle, then you can have a castle with walls that are 1 centimeter thick at full size, and you can still have it made of stone.
The castle would then collapse pretty much immediately at normal size, because its walls would be about 1/100th of a centimeter thick and could thus be knocked over by a stiff breeze unless it's made out of adamantine. Also, the animate paper folds itself into an origami castle.

Well, Giant Size as a spell already ignores the physics-restrictions of very large size, so I don't think we need to worry about things collapsing under their own weight.

Considering HPs don't change, I think we can assume that the unmodified traits of a very small model are the same traits as a Giant Size one, so you should be able to put your hand right through several feet of stone in this castle. It should be super brittle, and yet somehow able to not collapse under its own weight.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:42 pm

Chamomile wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Chamomile wrote:The castle would then collapse pretty much immediately at normal size, because its walls would be about 1/100th of a centimeter thick and could thus be knocked over by a stiff breeze unless it's made out of adamantine.
Which would totally matter if it weren't under Temporal Stasis.
It's not. The castle doesn't go under Temporal Stasis until after it's been enlarged, otherwise you couldn't enlarge it.

The castle doesn't have 1/100th of a centimeter thick walls until after you cast Stoneshape, which occurs the same round you cast Giant Size and Temporal Stasis.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Chamomile wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Which would totally matter if it weren't under Temporal Stasis.
It's not. The castle doesn't go under Temporal Stasis until after it's been enlarged, otherwise you couldn't enlarge it.
The castle doesn't have 1/100th of a centimeter thick walls until after you cast Stoneshape, which occurs the same round you cast Giant Size and Temporal Stasis.

But then we couldn't do the thing where you sell tiny castles with a stick that casts Giant Size and Temporal Stasis when you break it.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:18 pm

Chamomile wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Chamomile wrote:
It's not. The castle doesn't go under Temporal Stasis until after it's been enlarged, otherwise you couldn't enlarge it.
The castle doesn't have 1/100th of a centimeter thick walls until after you cast Stoneshape, which occurs the same round you cast Giant Size and Temporal Stasis.
But then we couldn't do the thing where you sell tiny castles with a stick that casts Giant Size and Temporal Stasis when you break it.

If you have a stick that casts Giant Size and Temporal Stasis when you break it, you could sell just the stick, and have it cast Stoneshape, Animate Object, Giant Size, and Temporal Stasis when you break it, and then everyone could design their own castle instead of having to get one of the ones you had predesigned.

K · Post by K » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:58 pm

Personally, my fortress is a permanent Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion hidden in a high-end brothel's closet.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:21 am

You can always add minor adjustments to the stick. Stone shape, stone to flesh, giant size, animate object, Temporal stasis.

A perfect necromancer's castle.