A D&D empire, 200 years in - what makes it collapse?

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:13 pm

I think you're missing the point, shadzar: the goal is to have the very magic that built the empire be its undoing, not to have a magical empire collapse for some other reason.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:54 pm

God of magic raises middle finger => imperial age of goblins comes to an end => GIANT FROG interlude => age of men begins.

Next up: age of fish-men; tides will rise. Then fey, then dwarf, then back to goblin. Big circle. Or so the eldest titan says.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:57 pm

I think that looking at existing content and history is what you need to do Bihlbo.

Taking the example of say, Dune, one has:

-A nagigation/travel guild (the Spacing Guild)

-A Financial Collective (CHOAM)

-The Ruling Leader (backed up with the most elite military known) [Padashan Emperor & Sardaukar troops]

-An Assembly of Ruling Heads (Landsraad)

-Shadow Elements within existing power structures (Bene Gesserit)

-Outsiders with Membership that are necessary (Bene Tieliaux)

So 6 main players; none of which are willing to allow any other complete sovreignty; and two of which are full of their own internal factions (CHOAM and Landsraad).

If you can outline the players at the Empire level; then you can perhaps figure out what sorts of antagonisms they can have.

Potential factions:

The Pantheonists: Clerics of Empire-supporting dieties; infighting along theological and/or alignment and/or aesthetic reasons
Emblem: A pentet of interlocking circles in a circle
Nickname: Ringers

Green Wardens: Maybe your 'empire' is something along the lines of Japan when it comes to forest coverage; and has ridiculous coverage with forests everywhere, and people building wall-of-stone//wall-of-iron "hives" (think above ground termite mounds, build of stone and reinforced with iron; druids would be all for structures like that, since it allows their preferred terrain to take up a lot of area)
Emblem: A Leaf
Nickname: Greens, Leafs

The Scribes Guild: Wizards and writing type casters
Emblem: A Written Page
Nickname: Pages

The Eldritch Guild: Sorcerers and non-book casters (a fellowship; with vetting, badges, proving etc.)
Emblem: A Lighting Bolt
Nickname: Bolts

The Immortal Throne: Magocrat, has some relic cheese that allows for controlled reincarnations, or an artifact; to maintain stability; also part of a lineage of hero-adventurers (?)
Emblem: a Crown
Nickname: The Crown

The Imperial Guard: Some sort of super-unit; pick a plane; pick a species; apply planar template to species. Anything from Fiendish Frost Giants to Axiomatic Myrmidions/Formians or Lighting Goblins; w/e.
Emblem: Crown above a pair of crossed Swords
Nickname: The Crowns Swords

The Guild of Adventurers: Elite problemsolvers; all swear an oath to the Magocrat [so, sort of like the Sardaukar; if every member was Maverick, Conan or Snake Plissken].
Emblem: a Sword pointing downwards
Nickname: A sword, swords.

The Gating Guild : Have a monolopy on travel; by having a monopoly on Gates; members of the Eldritch; Scribes and Green Wardens who wish to join the Gating Guild need to both renounce previous ties before joining; or the Gating Guild is the only group that knows and teaches about teleportation magic. Possibly Outsider-linked; Perhaps each Gating Guild outpost has both a Celestial and a Fiend who are bound to a location to advise the local comptroller.
Emblem: Door
Nickname: Door people

The Teamsters: Trade guild; everything from carrots and turnips to bloodiron and dead bees passes into a Teamster wagon at some point in its passage from one province to an other. Only guild with the right to carry trade goods beyond a provinces borders.
Emblem: A horseshoe
Nickname: Wagoneers

The Free Companies: unaligned adventurers who form their own organizations and are given a deputization by one of the established factions.
Emblem: Crossed Swords under the emblem of their sponser
Nickname: X-Swords, [Faction] Swords

Note a character can't be a member of the GoA and the Scribes/Eldritch/Green Wardens/Gaters/Teamsters. You can join one of these factions; or work as an independant (free company) for more than one.

Next, you figure out who makes up each faction in more detail; allies and enemies of each faction; and what possible end goals are.

I'd be wary of doing things like "magic has a total cap of actions if can perform"; since spells like Wall of Iron already are conservation of mass studies (one needs a pound of gold; which gets it neutrons and protons rearranged into slightly less dense iron atoms).

Likewise with Continual Flame (need to grind up crystalline ruby then energize and align it to create a low-end light generation feedback loop).

Having a 'cap' on stuff like charm person only is tenable if things like "hammering nails" also has a cap; and once you start nailing your 5 millions and one nail; then previously hammered in nails begin to pop out of wood.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:16 pm

The practice of using long effreet chains to get huge numbers of wishes eventually leads to catastrophe as the total number of effreet in the world increases the mass of the planet to the point that surface gravity becomes intolerable. A sufficiently large effreet chain would eventually create a black hole.

Effereti weigh 2000lbs meaning that they mass about 907 kilograms. The earth masses about 5.9722* 10^24 kilograms. It would take 6.5868*10^21 Efferet to double the mass of the planet.
Since each cycle you summons double the last cycle's output, you'll have 9.4447*10^21 Efferti in only 73 cycles.

This is going to change the center of mass of the planet, cause all sorts of natural disasters, and make gravity a little wonky. And it's only going to get worse over time unless someone can shut it down.

This is a direct and realistic consequence of using an absurdly cheesy but perfectly rules-legal magic exploit, the sort of thing that the empire is likely to do.

Judging__Eagle wrote: spells like Wall of Iron already are conservation of mass studies (one needs a pound of gold; which gets it neutrons and protons rearranged into slightly less dense iron atoms).

One pound of gold nets you 36,825 pounds of iron bare minimum. I really don't think conservation of mass has anything to do with it.

Endovior · Post by **Endovior** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:13 pm

That last is just stupid. Now, one might assume that because the elemental planes are infinite, there's an infinite amount of Genies there... and hence, that you can Wish for all of that infinite number, in time. But that's not necessarily true. If wishing for more Genies is a totally valid way of getting extra wishes, there IS a loophole implicit in the trick... as at some point, wishing for more Genies will instead summon Genies that you summoned earlier in the cycle, who will doubtless mock you for the attempt.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:34 pm

Endovior wrote:That last is just stupid. Now, one might assume that because the elemental planes are infinite, there's an infinite amount of Genies there... and hence, that you can Wish for all of that infinite number, in time. But that's not necessarily true. If wishing for more Genies is a totally valid way of getting extra wishes, there IS a loophole implicit in the trick... as at some point, wishing for more Genies will instead summon Genies that you summoned earlier in the cycle, who will doubtless mock you for the attempt.

1. One can't "summon" creatures already on a Prime
2. The amount of Primes is infinte
3. All Inner Planes, Astral Sea and Outer Planes are fed by every Prime

The "Efreeti Hellhole" is more likely to occur than an "Error - Efreeti not found" situation.

As for the conversion of Au (79) to Fe (26)*, I can't know what the exact process is; but the actual nucleii of the Au are being split in a non-fission based reaction, and the resultant matter and energy are then converted into a much less atomically stable Fe.

Think of it like taking a "volume" of wood; and then rendering it down into kindeling or sawdust. The total mass actually goes down (losses in terms of cutting, by-material caught on tools, off-cast material, etc.) yet the volume goes up; and the resultant material is also much more volatile and shapable.

In the case of 50 Gold Pieces to an Iron Wall (more like an Iron sheet, or 1-2" thick slab); the highly corrosion resistant gold, with a higher amount of neutrons, protons and electrons; gets rendered down, and the fission energy by-product gets recollected to form more iron (the energy to matter conversion is only a specious assumption, but one can't split things at the atomic level and not get legendary amounts of off-cast energy. The resultant iron is also less atomically stable than the gold.

*

Sidenote: The "ring" arrangement of the periodic table on the wiki article is... highly useful for my own Science Fantasy Heartbreaker project with respect to how Carceri is going to be protrayed. Originally it was "just" the normal periodic table in rectangular format, since it has 6 rows, just as Carceri has 6 levels; but being arranged in a "series of circles" fits the original descriptions of Carceri even more so.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:44 pm

Err, actually everything (fission and fusion) naturally heads towards iron. It's about as stable as you can get.

What is the "Efreeti Hellhole"?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:24 pm

Yes, suns burn down to create iron. However, gold comes from stars that burned iron and created gold. It's a crazy cycle.

6.5868*10^21 Efferet to double the mass of the planet.
Since each cycle you summons double the last cycle's output, you'll have 9.4447*10^21 Efferti in only 73 cycles.

73 repetitions of the "tell the Efreeti to summon some more Efreeti" routine results in enough Efreeti to create a gravity hole of firey assholes heavy enough to potentially crush a planet larger than most D&D prime worlds. The location being dubbed an Efreeti hellhole (or more ironically/wryly "an efreeti firepit").

Really, the biggest stop to this is summoning Efreeti who have already used their 3 wishes for the day; after 73~ rounds you basically destroy a planet. I bet the Efreeti actually want stuff like that to happen, since it's a good comeuppance.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:36 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote: In the case of 50 Gold Pieces to an Iron Wall (more like an Iron sheet, or 1-2" thick slab); the highly corrosion resistant gold, with a higher amount of neutrons, protons and electrons; gets rendered down, and the fission energy by-product gets recollected to form more iron (the energy to matter conversion is only a specious assumption, but one can't split things at the atomic level and not get legendary amounts of off-cast energy. The resultant iron is also less atomically stable than the gold.

*

The rules are explicit on the size. 25 square foot cross-section per caster level and 1 inch thickness per four caster level. It's a level six spell so it's going to be cast by level 12 wizards, minimum. That makes it 25*12/4 = 75 cubic feet.

If that that wall of "iron" weighs only one pound, then it has a density of about 0.21 kilograms per cubic meter. Air at room temperature has a density of about 1.2 kilograms per cubic meter. In other words, your iron wall is less dense than air. I'll literally float away.

And if it were true you could build a fleet of airships out of magically created iron walls. Unfortunately, there is a dearth of solid iron lighter than air ships.

Of course, if we assume that word iron has the same meaning in D&D as it does in real life (a dubious assumption, I know, what with "cold" iron and everything) then we can assume that it has a density of 7874 kg/m^3.

Also please note that you can't get any extra mass from the binding energy released during the conversion process. The atomic binding energy has mass and contributes to the total mass of the substance. And anyway, in order to make that much mass through direct energy conversion you'd need over 286 gigatons worth of energy, substantially more than the 9.56 megatons you could get by converting gold into pure energy.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Yes, suns burn down to create iron. However, gold comes from stars that burned iron and created gold. It's a crazy cycle.

In order to fuse iron, you need to put more energy in than you'd get out. In order to split iron you need to put more energy in than you'd get out. It's worth noting that when stars start making heavy elements that means that they're dying, because making heavy elements through fusion is an inherently lossy and unsustainable process.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:36 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:I think you're missing the point, shadzar: the goal is to have the very magic that built the empire be its undoing, not to have a magical empire collapse for some other reason.

Bihlbo wrote:Also, "The Empire crumbles because D&D magic works the way it does" does not mean the same thing as "The Empire crumbles because out of nowhere big scary stuff happened and sharp things made undesirable holes in lots of people." If that were the cause of an empire falling apart it could happen in any setting, in any time period, in any game system.

but it seems that isnt what is wanted....?

which goes back to the original thing i said....

since D&D magic, the arcane type, comes from warping the fabric of the universe, then that fabric start to unravel as it were in the area.

divine magic would then be a deity smiting the people.

the focus of all that magic being used in one place causes a cataclysm.

that isnt something that D&D says happens at ANY time, but D&D amgic system never said there was a downfall to having too much magic in or used in any area.

you have to come up with the outer limits of magic.

simplest way is a pressure vessel. only so much magic can be contained in one area until the area itself and fabric of reality there ruptures.

like a magic nuclear explosion or implosion and ALL the magic is sucked out of the area as well anyone influenced by it since the magic energies are a part of them now.

maybe a magic blackhole...

hyzmarca wrote:
Judging__Eagle wrote:Yes, suns burn down to create iron. However, gold comes from stars that burned iron and created gold. It's a crazy cycle.
In order to fuse iron, you need to put more energy in than you'd get out. In order to split iron you need to put more energy in than you'd get out. It's worth noting that when stars start making heavy elements that means that they're dying, because making heavy elements through fusion is an inherently lossy and unsustainable process.

when a star makes iron, it is deads moment later. gold and other "precious"/heavier metals come from the resulting explosion AFTER the fusion has stopped.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:26 am

Good gawd, I didn't mean to touch off a firestorm with the whole "there's only so much iron that can be magically created" concept. It's magic, you don't need to back it up with scientific discussion of atoms and whatnot.

Just adding one 'unwritten' rule to how D&D magic works, namely that there's a limit at which you can get something from nothing (more accurately, the 'nothing' is just from some place nobody notices), past which the something has to come from somewhere else, generally nearby or otherwise noticeable.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:36 am

hyzmarca wrote: 25 square foot cross-section per caster level and 1 inch thickness per four caster level. It's a level six spell so it's going to be cast by level 12 wizards, minimum. That makes it 25*12/4 = 75 cubic feet.

Just nitpicking but...

Level 11 wizards, you mean. So it'd be less than 75 cubic feet at a minimum

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:38 am

I'm always leery of bringing science into D&D. For one, I'm dis-knowledgeable enough about science that such a world would not necessarily have any more verisimilitude than something I made up. Secondly, I'm not sure I really want my world to be scientifically accurate. It kinda makes things I like like discwords and hollow-earths and stuff impossible.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:41 am

If you want to bring science into D&D, you need to explain magic. Not just the scientific implications of a specific spell, but how on earth the spells happen at all. Where is that energy coming from? Magicons? Are wizards really magiconists? Do you really want to develop an entire new branch of physics just so you can say that your magic is scientifically accurate?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:54 am

Doom wrote:Good gawd, I didn't mean to touch off a firestorm with the whole "there's only so much iron that can be magically created" concept. It's magic, you don't need to back it up with scientific discussion of atoms and whatnot.

someone mentioned using iron to destabilize magic?

i only saw the bit as i was posting...and being science, provided the correct info on it myself.

there is NO correct use of science in magic, as magic violates it point blank.

ergo why magic missile should be able to "push" things when the word "force" was used in its description, it added the science where it shouldnt. should have been just called a magic energy to remove implications of force.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:00 am

Well there is the old Gygaxian psedu-sciecne model. Magic was powered by the ineraction of the positive and negative material planes with the prime material plane. (In the PBH the negative material plane is also described as the "place of anti-mater.")

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:34 am

so those using magic get sucked to the negative material plane and trapped there.

or to balance them, things form the negative plane come rushing in in relation to the magic on the prime in the area.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:05 am

That actually has some merit if you de-shadzarish it.

Too many people use positive energy to create, but negative energy use is outlawed. So, a bunch of negative energy breaks in to even things out.

Or something like that, I'm sure more eloquent people than myself can put it in a more compelling fashion.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:14 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:Too many people use positive energy to create, but negative energy use is outlawed. So, a bunch of negative energy breaks in to even things out.

I'd actually prefer the consequences being the opposite: too much positive energy is here, and it's doing something bad here, possibly relating to people who call upon it getting more power than they bargained for and blowing the fuck up. Also, once people get adapted to it, it gives people who focus on the body superpowers (Tome martials).

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:48 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:That actually has some merit if you de-shadzarish it.

Too many people use positive energy to create, but negative energy use is outlawed. So, a bunch of negative energy breaks in to even things out.

Or something like that, I'm sure more eloquent people than myself can put it in a more compelling fashion.

shadzar-ize would be a more applicable suffix to add.

also it doesnt even involve alignments just positive and negative which doesnt HAVE an alignment per say, so you dont have to wory about any of that.

so all magic used ont he prime material plane is derived fromt he pime material (positive) energies, so as with all things D&D there is a balancing effect, something form the negative plane much counter-balance all the use of positive form the prime.

negative material infects people, or something.

everything tries to reach a state of equilibrium.

which is where i came from originally with the ley lines...too much use of the positive meant it had to be taken from somewhere, and since negative wasnt used, you can use this to explain why the people get sucked to the negative to equalize that plane to have the same amount of negative as the prime has positive left...or something.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:55 am

We are looking for ways that overuse of D&D magic could lead to the downfall of an empire. One possible factor might be water pollution. Even very weak casters can use spells to create water, and Decanters of Endless Water can serve as unlimited energy sources if you hook them up to some machinery. Thing is, this isn't magic water that disappears after X minutes. It is real water that you cannot dispel. If you build a million flying pyramids, each propelled by a million magic firehoses, then all that water has to go somewhere, and if you don't do something to deal with that before it is too late, some major problems could result.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:56 am

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:I'm always leery of bringing science into D&D. For one, I'm dis-knowledgeable enough about science that such a world would not necessarily have any more verisimilitude than something I made up. Secondly, I'm not sure I really want my world to be scientifically accurate. It kinda makes things I like like discwords and hollow-earths and stuff impossible.

It doesn't make them impossible, it just means that you need to explain why they are possible. That explanation need not be detailed and or realistic. A bare handwave will do

Science is a method of investigation, not a set of hard rules. Hypothesize, experiment, repeat. If something unexpected happens adjust your hypothesis and start again.

Heck, Wizards are scientists. They're primitive scientists with crappy equipment in a universe that bears no resemblance to our own where the gods change the basic laws of physics every few years, but they're scientists none the less.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:05 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:water pollution

Holy tulips, this has all happened before! This is why Spheres of Annihilation exist!

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:14 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:water pollution
Holy tulips, this has all happened before! This is why Spheres of Annihilation exist!

That makes so much sense!

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:14 am

on the idea of pollution, how about magical waste?

attempted potions and all are poured into some reservoir, but purify food and water doesnt always clean it because there is so much mixed together it cannot be cleaned.

like the ooze in ghostbusters 2, or Gargamel's pond in the Smurfs.

these magic pollutant and magical waste start affecting things somehow....
maybe this is how wild magic areas and no magic areas exist in places because of the concentrated magic goes haywire.