Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Juton]

They are absolutely 100% fucking serious. You know what's worse? Someone's going to buy it.

[hogarth]

oracle is pretty good, probably better than sorc but near that power level

The problem with the oracle is that many cleric spells are boring but useful. That's fine for clerics, but if I'm an oracle it means I can either (a) have little room for interesting spells or (b) have little room for useful spells.

The infuriating thing about the Oracle is that they didn't fix the damned delayed progression for spontaneous casting. They do get some of the best selectable class abilities though.

The oracle has the same issues as the sorcerer in terms of class features. Namely, 90% of the "bloodlines" and "mysteries" are pretty crappy compared to the other 10%. So you end up with a bunch of Battle oracles or Heavens oracles or Nature oracles and the rest of the mysteries are wasted space.

[GâtFromKI]

Anyway, since this thread is about Pathfinder being bad, how bad is the Oracle class? The fluff got me mildly interested despite the fact that it's probably a pretty horrible class with the way it's spell progression works.

The oracle has some crazy powerful options.

• Battle flavor : CoDzilla, with extra powers which are more powerful than feat.
• Heaven flavor : Do you like color spray? Do you like color spray with a non-squishy character? Do you like a color spray which renders unconscious creatures with 9+HD? That's your first trick. Your second trick is: force rage on a non-willing caster, no save. Your third trick is: commune, material component not included.

[Maxus]

• Battle flavor : CoDzilla, with extra powers which are more powerful than feat.
• Heaven flavor : Do you like color spray? Do you like color spray with a non-squishy character? Do you like a color spray which renders unconscious creatures with 9+HD? That's your first trick. Your second trick is: force rage on a non-willing caster, no save. Your third trick is: commune, material component not included.

So it's basically

A) I FORESEE YOU ARE GONNA GET YOUR ASS BEAT, SON

or

B) I FORESEE YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A SEIZURE.

[icyshadowlord]

Sounds good to me. Though I prefer heavenly seizures to regular beatings.

[Mask_De_H]

At level 11, Lore turns into a better Spell Domain for as long as you can feed your crippling spellbook habit and Dark Tapestry makes you a bootleg Druid/Mindbender with Planar Binding and save or confuse on tap. Time is kind of neat, but nowhere near as good as the other money mysteries.

But yeah, Battle, Heavens, and Nature are the best three, and almost make up for being a Favored Soul with a snazzy paintjob. Always pick Haunted for spells or Wasting for immunities (but really just pick Haunted).

Out of the "Base Classes" or whatever, the Oracle, Witch and Summoner are actually pretty good. Witch is probably the best though, since it can have everything the Enchanter needs (level appropriate Sleep and Charm) by level 3, while being a Wizard style caster with some Cleric bennies.

[A Man In Black]

I FORESEE

Oh no. The oracle doesn't have anything to do with forseeing things or prophecies. Whatever gave you that idea?

[Seerow]

I FORESEE

Oh no. The oracle doesn't have anything to do with forseeing things or prophecies. Whatever gave you that idea?

Do they at least beat people with sticks that have reach and use their caster level rather than BAB to hit, and int instead of strength to damage?

[icyshadowlord]

...the fact that a DM whom I had respect for and seemed wise just yesterday argued with me claiming that the Pathfinder Monk is a good class and an "anti-mage" made me die on the inside just a little more. (He also claimed that giving Monk full BAB would make it overpowered, and that Monks are the best Grapplers in PF...)

Anyway, speaking of Pathfinder and the Oracle class, did they just steal ideas from the Tome Samurai with the "Ancestor Revelation" thing?

"Ancestral Weapon (Su): You can summon a simple or martial weapon from your family’s history that is appropriate for your current size. You are considered proficient with this weapon. At 3rd level, the weapon is considered masterwork. At 7th level, 15th level, and 19th level, the weapon gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus. At 11th level, the weapon gains the ghost touch weapon property." - Very similar features.

Another one that bugged me. "Wisdom of the Ancestors (Su): Once per day, you can enter a trance in which you commune with the spirits of your ancestors."

So, coincidence... or theft? Edit: I KNOW they are not identical, but clearly you can tell that there ARE similarities in the mechanics.

[Juton]

...the fact that a DM whom I had respect for and seemed wise just yesterday argued with me claiming that the Pathfinder Monk is a good class and an "anti-mage" made me die on the inside just a little more. (He also claimed that giving Monk full BAB would make it overpowered, and that Monks are the best Grapplers in PF...)

All his Wizards probably just spam fireball and magic missile, against stuff like that maybe even a Monk can work. You have to remember that a good portion of players and DMs have never really seen what even a core caster is capable of, they play them simple, focusing on just direct damage, maybe just a few save or lose spells. This DM has probably never seen a chaingun tripper or a maxed out archer build, I kind of envy him because that's the 3.5 I wish I had played.

[echoVanguard]

Anyway, speaking of Pathfinder and the Oracle class, did they just steal ideas from the Tome Samurai with the "Ancestor Revelation" thing?

"Ancestral Weapon (Su): You can summon a simple or martial weapon from your family’s history that is appropriate for your current size. You are considered proficient with this weapon. At 3rd level, the weapon is considered masterwork. At 7th level, 15th level, and 19th level, the weapon gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus. At 11th level, the weapon gains the ghost touch weapon property." - Very similar features.

They did not steal that ability from Tome Samurai. They stole it from 3.0's Oriental Adventures Samurai base class, although they lowered the enhancement bonus, raised the required levels, and removed the GP sacrifice element.

echo

[OgreBattle]

...the fact that a DM whom I had respect for

Does he in turn respect you?

[icyshadowlord]

Now that I think of it, he probably doesn't.

[Maxus]

Throwing together the Pathfinder Grapplemancer likely wouldn't change his mind, damn the luck.

[Josh_Kablack]

What other people think about the monk doesn't even matter, because in Pathfinder you fucking play an Oracle with Color Spray madness

[Xur]

What other people think about the monk doesn't even matter, because in Pathfinder you fucking play an Oracle with Color Spray madness

I got it that this DM would even be offended by a Jekyll/Hide-Alchimist.

[Psychic Robot]

Anyway, speaking of Pathfinder and the Oracle class, did they just steal ideas from the Tome Samurai with the "Ancestor Revelation" thing?

"Ancestral Weapon (Su): You can summon a simple or martial weapon from your family’s history that is appropriate for your current size. You are considered proficient with this weapon. At 3rd level, the weapon is considered masterwork. At 7th level, 15th level, and 19th level, the weapon gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus. At 11th level, the weapon gains the ghost touch weapon property." - Very similar features.

Another one that bugged me. "Wisdom of the Ancestors (Su): Once per day, you can enter a trance in which you commune with the spirits of your ancestors."

any idea that frank and k have ever had is completely original and no mortal could ever have a similar idea without stealing from them

it's a shame that such a class feature is a piece of shit though

[hogarth]

any idea that frank and k have ever had is completely original and no mortal could ever have a similar idea without stealing from them

it's a shame that such a class feature is a piece of shit though

A lot of the Oracle "revelations" remind me of the crappy Witch class from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. E.g. things like "blast for energy damage 1/day" or "summon a crappy weapon for a few minutes/day".

[Mask_De_H]

Anyway, speaking of Pathfinder and the Oracle class, did they just steal ideas from the Tome Samurai with the "Ancestor Revelation" thing?

"Ancestral Weapon (Su): You can summon a simple or martial weapon from your family’s history that is appropriate for your current size. You are considered proficient with this weapon. At 3rd level, the weapon is considered masterwork. At 7th level, 15th level, and 19th level, the weapon gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus. At 11th level, the weapon gains the ghost touch weapon property." - Very similar features.

Another one that bugged me. "Wisdom of the Ancestors (Su): Once per day, you can enter a trance in which you commune with the spirits of your ancestors."

any idea that frank and k have ever had is completely original and no mortal could ever have a similar idea without stealing from them

it's a shame that such a class feature is a piece of shit though

Funny thing is, one of the Magus ACFs (Kensai) is a bootleg Races of War Samurai mixed with that really terrible Arcane Duelist PrC. It can set an arcane pool point on fire for a shitty version of Kiai! (until Level 20 where it becomes Iaijutsu Master) and becomes an AoO murder machine, but doesn't get an Ancestral Weapon, Cut Magic, or the ignoring defenses. It does get to add its Int to damage rolls, AC and Initiative, though.

[K]

Anyway, speaking of Pathfinder and the Oracle class, did they just steal ideas from the Tome Samurai with the "Ancestor Revelation" thing?

"Ancestral Weapon (Su): You can summon a simple or martial weapon from your family’s history that is appropriate for your current size. You are considered proficient with this weapon. At 3rd level, the weapon is considered masterwork. At 7th level, 15th level, and 19th level, the weapon gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus. At 11th level, the weapon gains the ghost touch weapon property." - Very similar features.

Another one that bugged me. "Wisdom of the Ancestors (Su): Once per day, you can enter a trance in which you commune with the spirits of your ancestors."

any idea that frank and k have ever had is completely original and no mortal could ever have a similar idea without stealing from them

it's a shame that such a class feature is a piece of shit though

Funny thing is, one of the Magus ACFs (Kensai) is a bootleg Races of War Samurai mixed with that really terrible Arcane Duelist PrC. It can set an arcane pool point on fire for a shitty version of Kiai! (until Level 20 where it becomes Iaijutsu Master) and becomes an AoO murder machine, but doesn't get an Ancestral Weapon, Cut Magic, or the ignoring defenses. It does get to add its Int to damage rolls, AC and Initiative, though.

I took the whole "you chose a weapon and it becomes magic and gets pluses" idea out of the Complete Warrior Kensai, but the idea that it gets the Ghost Touch Property automatically was all me (because you really need it if you only use one weapon, and it fits thematically with katana lore about souls in the weapon).

Mine is different in that you use it to upgrade found weapons to decent mods and basic usefulness, where the Kensai version is just a free weapon that you might screw up a built for. (Also note that my version works and the Kensai version does not.)

The other ideas are, to my knowledge, completely original to me. Since this isn't the first time someone writing DnD has reskinned or tweaked one of my ideas, I am not annoyed or even surprised. I mean, I clearly recycle good ideas myself so I can't complain when someone else does it too.

Plus, when you give away things for free, you don't have a right to complain if they use it or crib a few ideas and make something completely new.

Heck, I don't even know if they did it in this case. People might have just come to similar conclusions and that led them to similar ideas.

[icyshadowlord]

I just got a horribly sadistic idea, which would also prove that one DM (the one who claimed that "Monk is a good class") wrong. You guys got any suggestions on how I can optimize a Wizard (preferably a Diviner for the initiative advantage) with the cheapest-ass spells to kill a Monk of the same level? I mean, like a level 3-5 Wizard, just tell me what spells I should pick to insta-disable and/or kill a Monk of the same level who thinks he's a Grapplemancer.

Either he will finally accept that he was wrong (very unlikely) or throw another hissy fit at me.

Edit: I should also remind him that a Fighter (who actually HAS full BAB) does a better job Grappling compared to a Monk anyway. And a Monk NOT having BAB is RP-wise silly, since EVEN THE FUCKING GUNSLINGER (theie only realistic display of power is the AMAZING ability of pulling the trigger) HAS FULL BAB!!

[Winnah]

Fly?

Enlarge person?

Animate Hair?

Entering a combat flying and invisible will shut his tactics down. Then make yourself big with Enlarge Person and strangle the monk to death with animated hair.

I'm unsure how familliars work in PF, but most of those buffs could probably be shared with your pet for twice the fun.

Mad Monkeys is also a hillarious spell by the look of it. There is little a grappler can do against a swarm.

As for a Fighter, I would suggest investing in armour spikes and a 2 handed weapon.

[hogarth]

Edit: I should also remind him that a Fighter (who actually HAS full BAB) does a better job Grappling compared to a Monk anyway.

By level 3, a monk gets the equivalent of full BAB for grappling purposes, so it's mostly a toss-up, although magic armor spikes are cheaper than an amulet of mighty fists I suppose.

[DMReckless]

You might want to bone up on Pathfinder a bit before making such attempts.

isl-Monks get full bab for manuevers through Manuever Training at 3rd level.

winnah-If by animate hair you mean the strangling hair spell, it's unlikely to be very effective against a 5th level monk focusing on manuevers, and enlarge person besides having a full round casting time would also do nothing to improve the effects of strangling hair. Mad Monkeys would be more effective, since it would definitely do 2d6 per round instead of maybe 1d6 per round. Of course, the monk is faster than the Monkey Swarm and could just keep away from it for the 5 rounds it lasts, since you approached the monk invisible and flying in a wide open field of daisies. Gosh, won't your invisibility also have run out by then? Good thing you're way up in the air where he can't reach you, because you're out of decent level spells.

[icyshadowlord]

I said 3-5 level, but yeah, I am sure a 5th level Wizard can find a way to royally screw over a Monk anyway.

If the Monk and the Wizard were both level 3 or 4, I am sure the Wizard could put the Monk out of commission with a simple Color Spray or Sleep spell.
The latter gives the Wizard a free chance to Coup de Grace the poor son of a bitch.