CR vs. ECL

[virgil]

One thing I've noticed on this forum is the general consensus that ECL is broken with things like LA, partially because of the fact that ECL /= CR with such.

How does one reconcile this with the fact that many people state that ECL and CR measure completely different things? I've seen at least one quote this article in regards to such, and I believe even the FAQ uses such reasoning.

[Koumei]

Simply put, they don't know what they're talking about. That's roughly the long and short of it. Others here, like Frank, K, Ceilingcat and many more, could go into greater depth. All I can say is "I've tried it as ECL = CR (give or take a point or two) and it worked. I've tried the hopeless ECL system, and it didn't work."

Edit:
Oh, and on the stupidity of "But the monster abilities only help a monster for a couple of rounds before you kill it, whereas they help the PC for their entire life!"

The exact same can also be said of any ability. Note how a level 10 human wizard is a CR 10 and is ECL 10. But the Greater Mage Armour, Blink, Shield, Invisibility (yes, on top of Blink), Fly, Polymorph and Shivering Touch would only benefit the NPC for a couple of rounds (until it kills the party or vice versa), whereas they benefit the PC for the rest of their life!

That statement suggests they're looking at it the wrong way. A person should look at the sum abilities and say "What level should someone be to have those kind of abilities?", instead of "We need to make you pay for each of these abilities. Individually."

[PhoneLobster]

The problem is that CR and ECL ARE the same thing.

Because you actually compare the two directly.

The game effectively tells you that a Level X (non monster) character is a CR X threat. And a level X PC IS supposed to fight, one on one, with a threat of the same CR as themselves and come out on top like 50% of the time (ie be an even match).

So a CR 5 creature and an ECL 5 creature are supposed to be a directly even match, you have two numbers that are both supposed to measure the power of a critter and both explicitly claim to do so on the same comparable scale.

Then LA steps in a busts a cap in ECL's ass.

And you get wierd shit where a Nymph is like a level 13 character, who among other things is supposed to be so vastly superior to NPC nymphs, who have like totally the same HD as them, that they are supposed to walk all over limitless numbers of them without problems.

And being a PC is SO good for the nymph that it can go toe to toe with an NPC nymph that has the same hit die AND has 7 class levels, or more (non associated class levels forever!) AND has an elite stat array like the PC and unlike the MM entry.

The NPC match partner even has NPC equipment for a creature SEVEN LEVELS HIGHER THAN THE PC, because it gears up including LA but doesn't count LA in its CR, better yet with non associated class levels it gets even higher level gear.

So you take a single scale that used to be called CR, you give it two names and PRETEND that you can just add an arbitrary number to one side of it, sometimes, and that will somehow work as a system for introducing a new complex form of character into the game.

Its a transparent and above all else insultingly STUPID lie.

[tzor]

They are not "different" in as much as they are broken differently. (Broken not as in general broken, but there are many examples where the rules voilate the general principles of the concept and the rules violators for CR are different from the rules violators for ECL.)

The standard definition of CR is "This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty." But for example the CR of a dragon is based on knowing exactly what kind of dragon you are facing ahead of time and being prepared for that dragon. Most other CR values don't assume foreknowledge of the opponent.

Note ECL rules are vague and complicated. CR rules for increasing CR by adding class levels to a monster are also vague and complicated, but in the opposite direction focusing on the added levels as opposed to the base creature. (Associated class levels: +1 CR/level, Nonassociated class levels +½ CR/level.)

As I stated ECL is the opposite, "To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels."

Let's consider an Ogre, as the SRD already stats out a 4th level barbarian ogre.

Ogre
CR: 3
HD: 4
LA: 2

Note I think the first level effectively swaps out the assumed first level warrior used for most monsters, so a 4th level X is realy adding 3 levels of X and not 4. I could be wrong here.

Ogre + 4th level barbarian
CR: 7
HD: 8
LA: 2
Associated levels: 4

ECL = 4+2+4 = 10

Note by the rules a Orge + 4th level rogue would be
CR: 4
HD: 8
LA: 2

Nonassociated levels: 4

[Fwib]

As I understand it, first level gets swapped out only if the creature has 1HD - this seems to happen reliably in the stat-blocks for humanoids, but not always for other creature-types...

[Neeek]

Basically, the PC Ogre (without class levels, who is considered a 6th level character) from tzor's example gets 600 experience points for beating up a copy of himself.

A 6th Fighter gets 1,800 for doing the same. That's triple for doing a task that is roughly equal.

Worse, tzor's Ogre-Rogue (a 10th level PC, CR5), gets 500 experience for beating itself up. A 10th Fighter gets 3,000.

But wait! It gets more fun when you get characters with bigger LAs!

Take PL's Nymph: adding 6 non-associated levels(say, fighter) gets you a CR10 creature. As a PC, this character is 19th level (HD6 +7LA + 6 levels). For defeating itself, it gets 0 experience. It is supposed to be able to defeat itself using no meaningful resources. For comparison, a 19th level character typically gets 5,700 for defeating itself

[RandomCasualty]

Really, I tend to think the problem is more that a 10th level human fighter is a CR 10 challenge, because really, they're not. Far fewer magic items and only the elite array for stats.

Until I see an NPC fighter 10 that's actually a CR 10 challenge, this is a tough problem to fix.

[Iaimeki]

ECL isn't, per se, a bad idea: some abilities are more powerful in the hands of PCs than in the hands of NPCs. (Though, as usual, WotC has wrong-headed ideas about what, exactly, those abilities are.) However, WotC's implementation is so awful that CR+1 is in almost all cases a much better approximation to what the actual ECL should be than WotC's is.

[cthulhu]

A 10th level wizard is actually a CR10 challenge as wizards can typically throw down some nasty stuff with or without magic items.

The reason why a 10th level fighter is gimp as a CR10 challenge probably has more to do with the fighter than the challenge.

[RandomCasualty]

1188012351[/unixtime]]A 10th level wizard is actually a CR10 challenge as wizards can typically throw down some nasty stuff with or without magic items.

The reason why a 10th level fighter is gimp as a CR10 challenge probably has more to do with the fighter than the challenge.

Well, it has to do with a couple of things.

First, the fighter himself is weak, and second he's also got way less equipment than the PCs.

You can take a level 10 PC fighter and he'll kick the crap out of a copy of himself, just becuase the PC has so much more gear.

[PhoneLobster]

You can take a level 10 PC fighter and he'll kick the crap out of a copy of himself, just becuase the PC has so much more gear.

You are completely missing the point here RC.

A level ten PC fighter, may or may not kick the crap out of his level 10 NPC copy.

But an ECL 10 PC fighter vs a CR ten fighter which is SUPPOSED to be a mirror match is much more wildly variable, the NPC could easily have 5 to 10 more HD/Levels AND could be equiped as an NPC of an ECL 5 to 10 more levels above the PC! (Since it equips based on ECL without modifying its CR)

This thread is about the disparity between CR and ECL, it doesn't give a shit about the disparity between wizards and fighters.

Its also a bit dumb to pretend its somehow about the disparity between PC and NPC equipment of the same ECL/CR since its possible for the NPC to have equipment of a DIFFERENT (potentially much higher) ECL and still be the same CR.

[Koumei]

Solution: Equip NPCs by their CR, except give them PC wealth per level. It's not like anyone cares that the PCs sometimes get extra loot for slapping them up, given the whole "Wish Economy" thing.

Suddenly, "but they (sometimes) have more gear!" can't even be an effective argument about the mirror match thing.

[PhoneLobster]

OK, so perhaps when I pointed out it is dumb to pretend the only problem is fighter gear disparity I didn't make it a sufficiently sweeping statement.

Gear is just one minor aspect of the vast gulf that is caused by LA.

If there is LA involved in a mirror match the NPC won't just SOMETIMES have more gear, I don't have the PC and NPC wealth tables handy but I suspect even an LA of +2 will always give the NPC more wealth.

The wealth gulf may not even be by just a bit, it could be by as much as many times the PC's even the entire party's wealth.

Proposing giving out PC wealth by CR as a "solution" is wrong on so many levels.

1) You can't just fix the wealth disparity then pretend it is OK for ECL and CR to be different afterwards, because its still a vastly bad thing.

2) At absolute best CR vs ECL mirror matches for LA critters now "merely" have a disparity of between LA and some number easily at least 3 times larger than LA in hit die/class levels.

3) You just broke the wealth system. More. I ain't having with the wish economy as an excuse thing. If you are using ECL and LA then you aren't using the frank and k rules or anything resembling them.

[Koumei]

I rather meant "If you give monsters wealth as PCs who have a level equivalent to their CR, then make ECL = CR. That way, anything is equal to itself. Precisely equal, even."

But anyway, I suppose you're right. Even though "Wish Economy" exists because it is so easy to do in the core rules, the game doesn't actually expect you to do it, so assuming it to be the norm is sort of moving into Tome Territory.

And once you're in Tome Territory, you can seriously just say "ECL = CR + 1" or whatever and be done with it, and enjoy the way that it actually does work.

[JonSetanta]

1188112395[/unixtime]]
And once you're in Tome Territory, you can seriously just say "ECL = CR + 1" or whatever and be done with it, and enjoy the way that it actually does work.

I've tried it, it does work.
But I don't like how wealth and levels are associated at all.
There's examples of low-level kings directing epic fighters in various D&D books.
Kings.. with supposedly very little wealth, yet owning entire nations.
And a Level-whatever character is entitled to X amount of gold in items?
Go figure.
Need a different system, or just scrap it all. Look at the end-result of the item bonuses, rather than net wealth of a character.
As in, no expectations for wealth at ANY level. If one gets loot, they have loot. If they don't they shouldn't suffer and suck against level-appropriate encounters.
Equipment would be the cherry atop a sundae-of-an-encounter, not the bowl.