Tomb of Battle ques.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Low-level 4th Edition is much harder than the higher levels. You have a very real chance (especially with core books only back in 2008) of suffering a TPK. It won't be quick and unexpected like detachment of orcs getting two unexpected greataxe criticals, but you can get your ass ground into the dust with no way out.

Higher levels are another story.

[Koumei]

Any debate on this should be directed, instead of to Swordslinger, to this giant frog. That way you shall get a more sensible answer:

[PoliteNewb]

Any debate on this should be directed, instead of to Swordslinger, to this giant frog. That way you shall get a more sensible answer:

But...what if he eats Ant?

[Swordslinger]

1: Using astral projection does not remove all risk. It removes nearly all risk of death. You can still lose fights, and by extension lose adventures. If you bothered to astrally project out of your fortress of solitude it's because you wanted to achieve something in the outside world, which you might or might not succeed in doing.

That's true, but fortunately, there's nothing really worth risking at this point unless your DM introduces some kind of all powerful plot item. Otherwise, who cares? You have spells to fix anything that might happen.

People die? you've got an app for that that.
Castle burns down? You've got an app for that.
Bad guy gets away? Track him down and kill him later.

2: Accumulating and deploying enough overpowered spells and abilities to constitue and "I win" button in 3E is actually rather complicated and requires quite a bit of energy be invested in tactics and character design. From a player effort perspective, 3E is anything but an auto win. 3E monsters actually have shockingly dangerous attacks and abilities compared to 4E and most video games, so if you do something dumb like play a fighter or a wizard who uses the wrong spells, you do face a very real risk of death.

Sure, you can play it stupid. There's a huge power gap between 3E abilities such that you can make garbage characters or awesome characters. The awesome ones are basically untouchable, while the garbage ones might as well not even be playing.

The game isn't actually bad if you have people that don't know what they're doing, but get one powergamer in the group, or even one guy who knows how to look up builds on the internet, and forget about it. Game over.

3: 4E, by comparison, has a reputation of being very very easy. I haven't played it myself beyond level 1, but comparing sample characters to the printed monsters suggests to me that all you need to do is pick a class and follow the recommended build to handily defeat level-appropriate opponents every time. Picking the best option of 4 (or 2!) when you level up is not that challenging, and knowing which move to use really isn't either.

4E is easy in the sense that it's much harder to build ineffective characters. It's also much harder to build an invulnerable character too. But the point of what I'm saying isn't even an edition war. There are other RPGs that don't fall into the 3E trap. In fact, 3E tends to be very unique in that it probably offers the most breaking options of most mainstream games.

4: You tacitly acknowledge this by complaining about 3E becoming "a game of counters." In other words, you acknowledge that in 3E specific items or abilities sometimes become necessary for survival or victory, meaning that in order to win the players need to have made smart choices. The game where monsters typically have no significant defenses, movement modes, or disable moves, thus allowing "Tide of Iron. Again" to win nearly all fights would be 4e.

There's nothing wrong with counters, so long as the majority of things can access them. But here's the issue with 3E. The counters are far too specific, and then it goes and designs bullshit like superior invisibility that removes most of your counters except one highly specific one.

The problem is that the counter game is one sided and it's in favor of the PCs. It'd be okay if monsters play the counter game and PCs have this massive spell list to try to find the counter. But to have PCs have these super abilities that require monsters to think like adventurers... terrible design. And naturally, because monsters are a less developed than PCs, the monsters probably won't have the necessary counter. The PCs should be the ones solving the puzzles, not the monsters.

And it only gets worse, because you have PCs stacking on defenses. So good luck to the red dragon at finding the inaudible, invisible, flying, fire immune character that can't be detected by blindsight. If the dragon doesn't have true seeing, he can barely even fight back. Maybe he can spam dispels hoping to get lucky... that's about it.

Naturally then someone figures out someway to beat dispelling so he can't even do that. And so the arms race begins as more and more entries in the monster manual become totally redundant. Until you're simply left with just NPC spellcasters playing the same cheese machine game as the PC. And if the DM doesn't pick something that can bypass all that crap, the battle is close to an instant win for the PC. This isn't a hard fought battle with a vicious beast, we're talking about some invisible untouchable coward kicking a defenseless creature that can't fight back.

That's just not the kind of heroic fantasy I'd like to play, because it's not heroic at all. Say what you want about 4E characters. I know, they're dull and boring, but at least they can fight like men instead of invisible cheesing pussies who live off cheap shots. Apparently playing the coward seems to be K's idea of fun and heroic fantasy and the moment you want to challenge him, you're ruining his fun and being some Gygaxian dick.

[K]

And it only gets worse, because you have PCs stacking on defenses. So good luck to the red dragon at finding the inaudible, invisible, flying, fire immune character that can't be detected by blindsight. If the dragon doesn't have true seeing, he can barely even fight back. Maybe he can spam dispels hoping to get lucky... that's about it.

Any Red Dragon that would be a threat to a level 15 Wizard can make the Spot check to notice a Wizard under Superior Invisibility and will automatically do that because they max out skill ranks in Spot (and you'd know that if you read the monster entry). They have a better than 50% chance to pinpoint the exact square each turn (and you'd know that if you read the Spot skill and all the associated rules) and that means they can attack that square.

Heck, if we are using the Swordslinger School of DnD Challenges where PCs are expected to fight things much more powerful than them, a CR 20 Red Dragon can use a Crush attack to attack entire areas of a map and kill Medium-sized Wizards without even spotting them.

Is everything you know about 3e based on something you heard on a forum, or were you just never using the rules?

Naturally then someone figures out someway to beat dispelling so he can't even do that. And so the arms race begins as more and more entries in the monster manual become totally redundant. Until you're simply left with just NPC spellcasters playing the same cheese machine game as the PC. And if the DM doesn't pick something that can bypass all that crap, the battle is close to an instant win for the PC. This isn't a hard fought battle with a vicious beast, we're talking about some invisible untouchable coward kicking a defenseless creature that can't fight back.

Except we've shown in every case you've brought up that this does not happen.

In addition, we've been able to prove that you don't know the rules very well.

That's just not the kind of heroic fantasy I'd like to play, because it's not heroic at all. Say what you want about 4E characters. I know, they're dull and boring, but at least they can fight like men instead of invisible cheesing pussies who live off cheap shots. Apparently playing the coward seems to be K's idea of fun and heroic fantasy and the moment you want to challenge him, you're ruining his fun and being some Gygaxian dick.

Have you ever considered that maybe you are the "cheesing pussy?" I mean, I've never known a player to even attempt cheese when he trusted his DM to send fair challenges at him, ones with the expectation that he'd win after a good fight.

In fact, every time I've seen cheese at the table it was a response to overwhelming Gygaxian dickery. Without it, players self-nerf to maintain the sense of challenge. I think you'll find that for any player over the age of 15, the sentiment is almost universal since their goal is to have fun.

I, for example, won't even play a Wizard at a fair table for the reason that my vast knowledge of the spells makes it less fun for me.

[Fuchs]

I echo that - I only optimize if I think I'll need it.

[ModelCitizen]

Any debate on this should be directed, instead of to Swordslinger, to this giant frog. That way you shall get a more sensible answer:

Giant Frog, dragons can't hurt my wizard because he can fly and has someway to be immune to dispels. Am I allowed to retire him? I heard you weren't allowed to lock yourself in a tower and refuse to interface with the game world until you learn Astral Projection.

[Dominicius]

Soooo what happens when you have a campaign that is focused around fighting humanoid enemies that use intelligent tactics and where the bosses are all PC equivalents?

[Username17]

Soooo what happens when you have a campaign that is focused around fighting humanoid enemies that use intelligent tactics and where the bosses are all PC equivalents?

Wealth by level breaks.

Seriously: the PCs can't fight enemies as well equipped as they are all the time without getting covered in bling. That's why Drow equipment used to melt nonsensically if you tried to use it - which was not a particularly satisfying solution to the problem.

-Username17

[Fuchs]

A bandaid is having the humanoid NPCs using scrolls and potions to get their boosts, and buffs from NPC casters.

[Koumei]

Or Vow of Poverty cropping up a lot. The PCs will not appreciate it though, and are likely to punch you*. Moreso if they fight a dragon with VoP, as it gets a big numeric boost (just to hit even harder) and they don't get the substantial reward**.

*Or just KO the people, tie them up, and wield them as magic weapons, or attempt to skin them to see if the skin carries magical bonuses, or paralyse them and use them as human shields...

**Though they will probably skin the dragon to turn its scales into armour, see if they can sell its internal organs on the necromarket, either carve the bones into special weapons or sell an intact skeleton to a wealthy noble, and cook the meat for a very awesome BBQ. Actually, that sounds frigging awesome.

[Swordslinger]

Soooo what happens when you have a campaign that is focused around fighting humanoid enemies that use intelligent tactics and where the bosses are all PC equivalents?

Wealth by level breaks.

Seriously: the PCs can't fight enemies as well equipped as they are all the time without getting covered in bling. That's why Drow equipment used to melt nonsensically if you tried to use it - which was not a particularly satisfying solution to the problem.

Yes. This is the big problem with NPCs using the same rules as PCs in general. I realize people hate the 4E paradigm because it means that NPCs and monsters are actually better than PCs, who require magic items to compete. It's a sad reality that you have to do that but otherwise the game ends up breaking.

The game can't sustain itself if every NPC encounter against equivalent forces ends up doubling the PC's amount of magic items you have unless you have some mechanic that says items can't be picked up.

It's yet another area where 3E just fails. It's not even broken in implementation (as many parts of 4E are), but fundamentally broken in concept.

[Midnight_v]

Welcome to the gaming, whether or not I am right is the only thing that matters.

Hmph. Fair enough. I forget how you like to abuse the license to asshole, but you are correct, you're totally entitled to try. I was surprised because, well I never had an argument about Naked Warblade vs Monk... at all but I'm good to hell with it.
He're one contnious irritation with you though:

Next time, don't explain how you can do more damage to a monster because fuck yeah. That's stupid. Monsters don't sit waiting for you to roll Init and charge.

I have a quote of you doing just that. You have a bunch of fights set up where you handwave the abilities of the mosnters like "You can't fight me" in the case of the titan" and walk up and smack the monsters. .
Standby

The reason the Tome Fighter is OP is because he has infinite range darkvision, and danger sense, and a bunch of other detection methods, and he can use that to foil action the Balors when they are 120ft away. But you don't have any way to even know that Balors exist until after they do 20d6 damage and power word stun you.

You said in another thread the reason why the tome fighter was broke was because it does enough damage to kill anything at level 20 you know what fuck it:
Here's Kaeliks fight analysis

Fight 1: Titan:

SLAs: Persistent Image could be used as a super absurd (you are never actually attacking me) thing, if it's set up in advance, but that's exactly my point that this is mandatory. Let's assume it's not like that though. Gate will be ignored, because it is stupid. Of everything else Etherealness does nothing, because the Fighter has Ghost Touch weapons and can see the Ethereal plane just as well as the material. Maze, the Fighter probably has a teleport item of some kind, not to mention close range is within foil distance. Word of Chaos could be used, but give me a break, it's a level 16 fighter soloing a CR 21 monster, plus, it can't actually be used outside foil range, so it's actually probably never going to go off.

Fighter turn: Moves 90ft. Makes full attack as standard action. AC of 38 for Titan, Fighter using Combat School takes 10 on each attack, lowest attack rating is +45. yes, fighter wouldn't have perfect information because it might be non standard Titan, but he can also scale power attack between each of his 12 attacks. Let's say he just power attacks for full on every attack, adding 32 damage to each attack:

Hits on every attack 6 times for 78 damage before DR and 6 times for 68 damage before DR.

Assuming the Fighter doesn't have a weapon that auto bypasses all DR at this point, even though he probably would, that's still 696 damage on one full attack. Titan has 370 HP, and is now Chunky Salsa.

Fight 2: Tarrasque receives full 696 damage as before, but because it has 48 HD, it lives, heals 40 damage, and if it made all 12 saves against daze at DC 37 Fort saves, it get's two attacks foiled, then does some mostly pitiful damage. Yes it makes it on a 2, but there are 12 of them.

Next round, it's driven deep negatives, never wakes up, and the level 16 Fighter just keeps murderous intenting it, or full attacking, till he has it low enough to sit down, craft a scroll of wish, then use it.

Fight 3: NightCrawler. Dies in one round. Doesn't even have anything to save it.

Fight 4: Pit Fiend: Has Blasphemy and Persistent Image, see Titan SLAs. Also, because of the way Fear Aura works, if they start within 20ft of each other and the Pit Fiend wins init, Fear Aura will be used, because as a free action, even if foiled twice, he can still use it a third time, so instead, foil the standard and move, and then make a DC 27 Will save.

Once it comes time for the full attack, Power attacking for full is not such a good idea. AC 40 is just over the line, so that taking 10, on all the attacks besides the first 5, he needs to only power attack for +15. So let's take 2 damage off all the attacks, and just say he only takes 672 damage from the full attack. Oh wait, he's still dead. PS, no I didn't forget Unholy Aura, the Fighter ignores all Deflection bonuses.

Fight 5: Balor: As per Blasphemy, see Titan, however, unlike the Pit Fiend, the Balor could actually attack the Fighter if he starts outside 120ft and wins Init, he could use Insanity or Dominate Monster both negated by any Magic Circle effect or Mindblank, or he could use Telekinesis. But if the fighter ever gets to attack the Balor, it results in standard issue Chunky Salsa from 696 damage, again.

There, that's all the non Dragon CR 18-22s. I didn't go over Dragons or Solars, because that's too much work, what with variable spells, and stuff, but the point is:

Is enemy within 105ft of Fighter? If Yes, Chunky Salsa, if no, have him double move or charge, end next to the monster, and then take advantage of foil action and Mage Slayer, and a 15ft threatened range to get AoO on monster.

There is certainly room for trying to kite Fighter from outside 120ft, but it's quite difficult, and the Fighter can always just get behind cover, and that starts to get into what items he has, since he probably has a teleport item, or whatever. In general, it's really shitty how much the level 16 Fighter auto wins D&D.

You are such a fucking hypocrite, or maybe your a horrible and forgetful liar, but either way I hope someone who you call stupid today bends down and punches you in the neck.

Tl;Dr?
Here I have Kaelik saying the fighter is overpowered because he can detect high level opponents ...
Here I have kaelik telling me don't dicuss scenarios in which you roll initiative walk over and smack the monster to death. because its fucking stupid.
Here I have Kaelik doing exactly that.
Using it as an example to say the tome fighter is broke, because it does "300+damage around" with his bad ass optimized Colossal sized tanari feat fighter build.

Anyone. What does Kaelik WANT a fighter do? He apparently thinks detecting high level enemies is overpowered. He also seems to think that being able to kill enemies in 1 round through melee is broke as well. What the fuck does kaelik want in a fighter?

[Midnight_v]

Um... Because you are stupid?

What an fucking moron you are Kaelik, you can't be like this in real life, you're like that one internet cartoon where all you can think of to say is "Shitfuk".

Except for the part where I explicitly explained why you are wrong. That part wasn't shit fuck. When people are stupid IRL, I do in fact tell them they are stupid.

Even if you're right who gives a fuck what you have to say, you're simply needlessly unpleasant.

Welcome to the gaming, whether or not I am right is the only thing that matters.

Why is a Balor standing within charge range of a Warblade and rolling Init?

And seriously if you reduce combat to monsters always having suprise, always having action advantage, always "just" out of range, no one will ever catch up.

Some classes are capable of not being surprised by the Balor, those classes do not get surprised. If you class has absolutely nothing that prevents it from being surprised, then you damn well have to be able to win the fight when it surprises you.

If you were fighting a Tarrasque, you wouldn't be surprised, but if you are fighting a Balor, you will be, because you have nothing to detect it before you die.

[Midnight_v]

Welcome to the gaming, whether or not I am right is the only thing that matters.

Hmph. Fair enough. I forget how you like to abuse the license to asshole, but you are correct, you're totally entitled to try. I was surprised because, well I never had an argument about Naked Warblade vs Monk... at all but I'm good to hell with it.
He're one contnious irritation with you though:

Next time, don't explain how you can do more damage to a monster because fuck yeah. That's stupid. Monsters don't sit waiting for you to roll Init and charge.

I have a quote of you doing just that. You have a bunch of fights set up where you handwave the abilities of the mosnters like "You can't fight me" in the case of the titan" and walk up and smack the monsters. .
Standby

The reason the Tome Fighter is OP is because he has infinite range darkvision, and danger sense, and a bunch of other detection methods, and he can use that to foil action the Balors when they are 120ft away. But you don't have any way to even know that Balors exist until after they do 20d6 damage and power word stun you.

You said in another thread the reason why the tome fighter was broke was because it does enough damage to kill anything at level 20 you know what fuck it:
Here's Kaeliks fight analysis

Fight 1: Titan:

SLAs: Persistent Image could be used as a super absurd (you are never actually attacking me) thing, if it's set up in advance, but that's exactly my point that this is mandatory. Let's assume it's not like that though. Gate will be ignored, because it is stupid. Of everything else Etherealness does nothing, because the Fighter has Ghost Touch weapons and can see the Ethereal plane just as well as the material. Maze, the Fighter probably has a teleport item of some kind, not to mention close range is within foil distance. Word of Chaos could be used, but give me a break, it's a level 16 fighter soloing a CR 21 monster, plus, it can't actually be used outside foil range, so it's actually probably never going to go off.

Fighter turn: Moves 90ft. Makes full attack as standard action. AC of 38 for Titan, Fighter using Combat School takes 10 on each attack, lowest attack rating is +45. yes, fighter wouldn't have perfect information because it might be non standard Titan, but he can also scale power attack between each of his 12 attacks. Let's say he just power attacks for full on every attack, adding 32 damage to each attack:

Hits on every attack 6 times for 78 damage before DR and 6 times for 68 damage before DR.

Assuming the Fighter doesn't have a weapon that auto bypasses all DR at this point, even though he probably would, that's still 696 damage on one full attack. Titan has 370 HP, and is now Chunky Salsa.

Fight 2: Tarrasque receives full 696 damage as before, but because it has 48 HD, it lives, heals 40 damage, and if it made all 12 saves against daze at DC 37 Fort saves, it get's two attacks foiled, then does some mostly pitiful damage. Yes it makes it on a 2, but there are 12 of them.

Next round, it's driven deep negatives, never wakes up, and the level 16 Fighter just keeps murderous intenting it, or full attacking, till he has it low enough to sit down, craft a scroll of wish, then use it.

Fight 3: NightCrawler. Dies in one round. Doesn't even have anything to save it.

Fight 4: Pit Fiend: Has Blasphemy and Persistent Image, see Titan SLAs. Also, because of the way Fear Aura works, if they start within 20ft of each other and the Pit Fiend wins init, Fear Aura will be used, because as a free action, even if foiled twice, he can still use it a third time, so instead, foil the standard and move, and then make a DC 27 Will save.

Once it comes time for the full attack, Power attacking for full is not such a good idea. AC 40 is just over the line, so that taking 10, on all the attacks besides the first 5, he needs to only power attack for +15. So let's take 2 damage off all the attacks, and just say he only takes 672 damage from the full attack. Oh wait, he's still dead. PS, no I didn't forget Unholy Aura, the Fighter ignores all Deflection bonuses.

Fight 5: Balor: As per Blasphemy, see Titan, however, unlike the Pit Fiend, the Balor could actually attack the Fighter if he starts outside 120ft and wins Init, he could use Insanity or Dominate Monster both negated by any Magic Circle effect or Mindblank, or he could use Telekinesis. But if the fighter ever gets to attack the Balor, it results in standard issue Chunky Salsa from 696 damage, again.

There, that's all the non Dragon CR 18-22s. I didn't go over Dragons or Solars, because that's too much work, what with variable spells, and stuff, but the point is:

Is enemy within 105ft of Fighter? If Yes, Chunky Salsa, if no, have him double move or charge, end next to the monster, and then take advantage of foil action and Mage Slayer, and a 15ft threatened range to get AoO on monster.

There is certainly room for trying to kite Fighter from outside 120ft, but it's quite difficult, and the Fighter can always just get behind cover, and that starts to get into what items he has, since he probably has a teleport item, or whatever. In general, it's really shitty how much the level 16 Fighter auto wins D&D.

You are such a fucking hypocrite, or maybe your a horrible and forgetful liar, but either way I hope someone who you call stupid today bends down and punches you in the neck.

Tl;Dr?
Here I have Kaelik saying the fighter is overpowered because he can detect high level opponents ...
Here He also says its because it does too much damage (in one rather optimized build becaue of all the size increases.)
Here I have kaelik telling me don't dicuss scenarios in which you roll initiative walk over and smack the monster to death. because its fucking stupid.
Here I have Kaelik doing exactly that.
Using it as an example to say the tome fighter is broke, because it does "300+damage around" with his bad ass optimized Colossal sized tanari feat fighter build.

Anyone. What does Kaelik WANT a fighter do? He apparently thinks detecting high level enemies is overpowered. He also seems to think that being able to kill enemies in 1 round through melee is broke as well.
He also seems at least nebulously aware (when it suits him) that monsters have undetectiblity and plenty of spells that fucking kill you.)
What the fuck does kaelik want in a fighter?

[Kaelik]

1) That Fighter has 60ft blindsense, 120ft Tremorsense (which can detect without line of effect) Darkvision 60ft, sees invisible, and has problem solver which could always be used for danger sense.

2) So you missed the part where I expressly pointed out that the reason he is immune to everything (aside from the defenses he has) is that he has 120ft foil which means every single close range spell can't work on him, like a Balor's Power Word Stun. Did you not see me go through every spell that every CR 20 had and show exactly why the fighter can get to melee range to make his attacks unlike your naked Warblade?

3) You'll remember that my actual statement about the Tome Fighter that you contested was:

The Tome Fighter has it's own problems where it can't contribute to non combat anything, and is too powerful in combat in an exceedingly uninteresting way.

[The only meaningful choices when someone plays a Tome Fighter are:]

1) Involve something absurd to prevent any attacks from ever being rolled. IE, A Gelugon defending himself in his Illusory everything home.

2) infinite minion storm.

3) The fighters kills it like it doesn't even matter.

So aside from infinite illusions and dominate monster having been used to give infinite minions, the Tome Fighter can just instantly win.

Unlike naked warblades, Fighters have the ability to detect and defend against Balors, so the fact that they instantly murder them with HP damage is relevant.

[Giant Frog]

Any debate on this should be directed, instead of to Swordslinger, to this giant frog. That way you shall get a more sensible answer:

Giant Frog, dragons can't hurt my wizard because he can fly and has someway to be immune to dispels. Am I allowed to retire him? I heard you weren't allowed to lock yourself in a tower and refuse to interface with the game world until you learn Astral Projection.

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[echoVanguard]

2/10

echo

[CatharzGodfoot]

Was expecting something more along the lines of 'RIBBIT'.

[RadiantPhoenix]

butGIANT FROG saysGIANT FROGs 'giant frog'GIANT FROG becauseGIANT FROG itGIANT FROG isGIANT FROGs funnier/more randomGIANT FROGier thatGIANT FROG wayGIANT FROG.

[Giant Frog]

GiantGiant GiantFrogFrogFrogFrogGiant FrogFrog / FrogGiantGiantGiant Giant GiantGiant FrogGiant FrogFrogGiant / GiantFrog GiantGiantGiant / FrogGiantFrogGiant GiantFrogGiantGiant Giant GiantFrog GiantFrogGiant / GiantFrog GiantGiantGiant / GiantGiant / FrogGiantFrogGiant GiantFrog FrogGiant / GiantGiantGiantGiant Giant GiantFrogGiant Giant GiantFrogGiantFrogGiantFrog

[Seerow]

Hodor.

[fectin]

wat.

[Seerow]

Hodor hodor hodor!

[Koumei]

Was expecting something more along the lines of 'RIBBIT'.

Minus ten points. Of all the species of frog on the planet, there is basically one that goes "ribbit". It happens to live in Hollywood, where it was recorded for use in "every jungle, forest or place ever" in movies. There are frogs who bark like dogs, who are silent, who sound like wood being sawed, who chirp, buzz... "ribbit" is in the minority.

That said, contrary to stupid songs, there are no known frogs that go "La-dee-da-dee-da".