Monte Cook Back to Work

[Seerow]

How do single-use items figure into this sort of thing?

echo

Honestly, I'd rather see all limited and single use items straight up gone from the game. Healing Potions may be an iconic item, but they're not particularly interesting. And the consumables that are interesting contribute a fair bit to the spellcasters are broken thing.

[Previn]

Would there be a solution to make magic items things that effect the party as a whole? So rather than giving 1 player wings of flying, you slap down a flying carpet instead.

A +1 sword rather than giving you +1 to hit/damage debuffs your target to give all attacks against them +1 to hit and damage?

You still get magic items that way, and can do random tables, or even shops without getting on an item/bonus treadmill, or people upset at not having a +1 sword even though Bob does.

[A Man In Black]

I know items decaying was tossed out a while ago, but I had a thought. Would vertical-advancement items be acceptable if they simply didn't stack with skill beyond a certain point? For a simplistic example, a +5 sword doesn't give you +5 tohit/damage, it just gives you +5 BAB. Then your weapons don't disintegrate, but the advantage naturally diminishes as you level up.

[Winnah]

I would be more comfortable with a list of items that scale by level and a reference guide/build system for creating similar items.

So a flaming sword at low level simply inflicts fire damage. As the wielder increases in level it throws fire walls and fireshields and the like.

Kind of like the principle behind 3.5 legacy weapons/item familliars, only not a steaming pile of crap. I can get behind an Arthur analogue building his character around using Excalibur or the Sword in the Stone, or a Vecna type character that uses items to remotely control minions and channel his magics.

I have not thought about how that could be implemented in a balanced manner though.

[Leress]

Umm, Black, that sword would be awesome since it pretty much guarantees that you get an additional attack. Now if you meant it sets you BAB to 5 then at least to good for a couple of levels before level 5 or so.

[Seerow]

I would be more comfortable with a list of items that scale by level and a reference guide/build system for creating similar items.

So a flaming sword at low level simply inflicts fire damage. As the wielder increases in level it throws fire walls and fireshields and the like.

Kind of like the principle behind 3.5 legacy weapons/item familliars, only not a steaming pile of crap. I can get behind an Arthur analogue building his character around using Excalibur or the Sword in the Stone, or a Vecna type character that uses items to remotely control minions and channel his magics.

I have not thought about how that could be implemented in a balanced manner though.

This is why I like the idea of making magic items more like Incarnum.


Basically you get a magic item. The more essentia you invest in it, the more badass it gets or the more features it gets, or whatever.


So you have the guy with an awesome sword, basically all his essential goes into that. Or you have the guy who wants to be a magical christmas tree, with a dozen more minor effects.

[Archmage]

Umm, Black, that sword would be awesome since it pretty much guarantees that you get an additional attack. Now if you meant it sets you BAB to 5 then at least to good for a couple of levels before level 5 or so.

I think that's what he meant. You get a temporary advantage out of the item that diminishes as you level until it becomes obsolete automatically.

If you assume that your own bonus is used instead if it's better, that's an interesting idea for making magic items power up characters for a short period of time, though I'm not sure how happy people would be with the fact that their magic sword has an explicit expiration date stamped on the hilt.

[A Man In Black]

Umm, Black, that sword would be awesome since it pretty much guarantees that you get an additional attack. Now if you meant it sets you BAB to 5 then at least to good for a couple of levels before level 5 or so.

+5 BAB total, not an additional +5 BAB. So it's fucking awesome at level 1, possibly useful to the rogue at level 5, and nobody cares about it at all at level 8.

It would be possible to have weapons which are a substitute for skill instead of a supplement to it, and thus "disintegrate" or "expire" in that skilled people don't care about them any more.

If you assume that your own bonus is used instead if it's better, that's an interesting idea for making magic items power up characters for a short period of time, though I'm not sure how happy people would be with the fact that their magic sword has an explicit expiration date stamped on the hilt.

It would also allow a less-retarded way to retain the old 2e quality of "You must be at least this badass to hurt this enemy," if that's something of value to you. You go on an epic quest to get the sword to defeat the gargoyle at level 2, but at level 8 you fight a flock of gargoyles with a broken chair leg and it is not a big deal.

[fbmf]

I would be more comfortable with a list of items that scale by level and a reference guide/build system for creating similar items.

So a flaming sword at low level simply inflicts fire damage. As the wielder increases in level it throws fire walls and fireshields and the like.

Kind of like the principle behind 3.5 legacy weapons/item familliars, only not a steaming pile of crap. I can get behind an Arthur analogue building his character around using Excalibur or the Sword in the Stone, or a Vecna type character that uses items to remotely control minions and channel his magics.

I have not thought about how that could be implemented in a balanced manner though.

Book of Gears at least starts this process off, and I think some of the regulars have supplemented.

Game On,
fbmf

[hogarth]

It would be possible to have weapons which are a substitute for skill instead of a supplement to it, and thus "disintegrate" or "expire" in that skilled people don't care about them any more.

I've never heard people complaining that magic items should be more disposable; that's basically the opposite of what Monte is discussing in his column (i.e. that magic items should be more special and unique), isn't it?

By the way, I suspect I've been unfairly characterizing Monte's idea as "it's possible that Joe gets a magic sword and Bob gets a rock". Not because he's not suggesting that in his column, but I don't think he actually believes it. I think what he really proposes is to make Bob think he might get shafted, but -- surprise! -- he gets a magic sword to call his own after all.

It's like little kids at Christmas time. Many parents pay lip service to the idea that Santa might not get you what you wanted, or that he might even give you nothing at all if you're a bad kid. But most of the time, that's all it is -- lip service. The kid gets the "surprise" of getting what he wanted after all and everybody's happy.

[Gx1080]

Getting rid of consumables like Healing Potions is a bad idea, they allow more wiggle room for mistakes that players will obviously make.

[shadzar]

Hey, look, new article!

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... l/20111004

Ok, looks like he's talking about getting rid of mandatory magic item drops and wealth by level. That's good, right?

Wait, so the magic items ARE there to make PCs more powerful if they beat challenges? So are we balancing encounters around PCs with magic items or not? No answer? Sigh.

the answer is right there in the article to your question...

One might think that a 4th-level character shouldn't have a +3 sword, but if, through smart (and sure, probably lucky) play he legitimately overcame appropriate obstacles to get it, shouldn't he get it? Likewise, if a 10th-level character is still fighting crippled kobolds and half-strength goblins, he should have very little in the way of treasure, right? A +3 sword shouldn't just fall out of the sky for him because that's what 10th-level characters should have. Shouldn't rewards be, well, rewards?

it is a reward for something, rather than something to try to factor into power levels.

a reward is something you didnt have before, but do now after completing a task. be it cursed or beneficial. you got the reward, now what you do with it is up to you. the game shouldn't say you cant sell all your items off for coins because you might need those items later. that forces you to play collect all magic items and build around it and forces to "reward" with them, but then they are not a reward but an expectation.

[shadzar]

The problem with removing magic item dependency altogether is that determining encounter difficulty becomes much more difficult to do, since all your balance standards are set at a level that nobody actually plays at. So while it's beneficial psychologically, as far as preparation, the DM definitely needs useful guidelines to actually answer the question: Will this kill my PCs?

IF a DM is just out to kill PCs, or trying to prevent from killing them...neither of which a DM should try to do...but Monte actually saying something about how far back to D&D roots he is going without going to miniature wargame is easy to find...

First, treasure ends up being a part of the characters' advancement track, not a reward. If the core story of D&D is that adventurers go down into a dungeon to fight monsters and gain treasure, the monsters and the treasure should be story elements, not mechanical elements. What I mean by that is that they should be driven by the logic of the world, not the needs of the game system.

rather than trying to design around killing or not the PCs, design things based on what the world IS without the PCs.

you cannot design a game, campaign, adventure, encounter; that is "balanced" where there are SO many variables. so rather than trying to stagnate characters into the sameness of 4th edition to all just having different color hats and doing the exact same things...let the characters b3e different, and not bother trying to figure out what character you will have.

for the company this works best, as even with "made for 4~6 players of 8th level" that might not always work...what classes? what abilities? there are so many permutations that unless you specify EXACTLY what each character will have, you can NOT balance something out for them.

thus make the world as the DM, and let the players make the PCs, and the players then interact with that world through the PC in a more organic environment.

XP comes form fights that posed a threat. having a fight with 100 goblins doesnt gaurantee it to be deadly. the kellemalldead artifact sword not being used, changes the combat to a different threat level. using the sword would mean very little threat, but forgetting you have it makes it more of a threat. or worse, not even knowing that the sword would help the fight means it is a higher threat.

the encounter will be as deadly as the PLAYERS make it, through THEIR choices. this is not something a DM can account for. not even taking into account of available magic items to guess what would/could/should kill the PCs.

the single goblin is no different than the locked door. it doesnt offer XP, but wasnt really a problem to high level PCs. by thinking a single goblin isnt a threat, then should you not have them anywhere. likewise should you jsut remove locked doors?

the game world doesnt exist around JUST the PCs, but the PCs are only a small part of it.

[shadzar]

b-but redefining reward schedules means PC's need other motivations for adventuring...

Risking your life for a mountain of gold and a flaming BFS is one thing.

Risking your life for intangible rewards is quite another.

By intangible, I mean things that do not directly influence a characters abilities and are not worth noting on the first page of a bio/character sheet.

Speaking of which, without magick shoppes, how is a PC going to spend the gold they pillage? Building a fortress? Raising an army? Training?

like the reward of SURVIVING to name level? EARNING the title of hero?

on spending of coins and wealth without Ye Olde Magick Shoppe...prostitutes, feasts, weapon maintenance, lodging, booze, parties....lots of things that money can be used on.

[shadzar]

Would there be a solution to make magic items things that effect the party as a whole? So rather than giving 1 player wings of flying, you slap down a flying carpet instead.

even the MOST cooperative group plays individual characters with individual goals within the game, even though they share the ame adventure for small goals....

what happens when the party loses a PC that decides to go off? how do you equate that treasure of flying carpet when you have a contract of 10% of the rewards for your services, and the only thing there is the carpet?

party treasure pools are good, but not always party treasure. boots of flying can be more easily hidden in mundane ways than a carpet of flying able to carry 6 people.

that is really something that i a different beast than "power" increasing with magic items, only slightly connected because of the jealousy factor.

[Winnah]

So host an orgy and polish your sword? That's the best you can come up with?

Fuck. Caligula the mid level Illusionist can provide himself with all that and more. Plus he does not have to worry about gout, syphilis or awkward moments when he encounters his swinger posse in public.

What's his motivation for adventuring when he can simply spend all day in a masturbatory haze far superior to anything money can buy?

[Seerow]

So host an orgy and polish your sword? That's the best you can come up with?

Fuck. Caligula the mid level Illusionist can provide himself with all that and more. Plus he does not have to worry about gout, syphilis or awkward moments when he encounters his swinger posse in public.

What's his motivation for adventuring when he can simply spend all day in a masturbatory haze far superior to anything money can buy?

Maybe he's not wholly mercenary? I mean shit, people do have motivations to do stuff, even life risking stuff, that isn't money. If all Caligula wants is sexual gratification than with or without magical items he doesn't ever need to go adventuring because his magic accomplishes that just fine. If he wants wealth and influence, it's actually -easier- to do that in a game where you can get millions of gp without needing (or being capable of) investing that into magic gear to go kill the next monster.

[shadzar]

So host an orgy and polish your sword? That's the best you can come up with?

Fuck. Caligula the mid level Illusionist can provide himself with all that and more. Plus he does not have to worry about gout, syphilis or awkward moments when he encounters his swinger posse in public.

What's his motivation for adventuring when he can simply spend all day in a masturbatory haze far superior to anything money can buy?

the better question is, why did you want all the money in the first place? what purpose do you REALLY think money has?

if you adventured to gain money, then WHY did you want the money? what did you intend to do with it when you got it?

[RadiantPhoenix]

if you adventured to gain money, then WHY did you want the money? what did you intend to do with it when you got it?

For the money. Lots of people don't really stop to think about what they're really going to do with money once they get it. This is being, 'in character' for many neutral characters and some evil characters.

[Seerow]

if you adventured to gain money, then WHY did you want the money? what did you intend to do with it when you got it?

For the money. Lots of people don't really stop to think about what they're really going to do with money once they get it. This is being, 'in character' for many neutral characters and some evil characters.

But wanting money for money's sake isn't necessarily something that conflicts with few magic items, and any magic items you care about can't be bought for money. After all the character is still adventuring for gold. Only now he'll actually be able to hoard that gold, rather than pumping it all into a new rod, or a +4 sword.

[shadzar]

if you adventured to gain money, then WHY did you want the money? what did you intend to do with it when you got it?

For the money. Lots of people don't really stop to think about what they're really going to do with money once they get it. This is being, 'in character' for many neutral characters and some evil characters.

then i dont see Winnah's problem. he adventured for the money, and still has it...not my problem to figure out what he can do with it....

Speaking of which, without magick shoppes, how is a PC going to spend the gold they pillage? Building a fortress? Raising an army? Training?

[Winnah]

then i dont see Winnah's problem. he adventured for the money, and still has it...not my problem to figure out what he can do with it....

Uh...The problem is "Why would he adventure in the first place?"

Why expose yourself to unnecessary risk for no purpose at all? It's one thing to have bills to pay, and do what it takes to pay those bills. It's quite another to work in a dangerous profession solely for the purpose of funding your eccentricities and peccadilo's.

Not an issue for a story or two. Becomes an issue for a campaign, unless character options are limited in order to enforce a certain type of 'in-game' behaviour or morality.

Removing WBL is a good thing. Handling wealth in a game without WBL still needs to be considered. Otherwise GP's represent a waste of space on the character sheet.

[rasmuswagner]

First, you do it for the money. Then you do it for more money. Then you claim you're doing it for the money, but really, you're doing it because you're addicted to murder and risk.

[K]

First, you do it for the money. Then you do it for more money. Then you claim you're doing it for the money, but really, you're doing it because you're addicted to murder and risk.

I could see that. I mean, why even learn how to magically set someone on fire from the inside if you aren't going to get to do that every once in a while?

That being said, never underestimate an adventurer's desire for fame, power, and just plain novelty.

I mean, once you are done boning your consort for the afternoon, are you going to just fritter away the rest of the day in the garden or are you going to chase down ancient treasures of unspeakable beauty and power on other planes of existence?

I think you know what my answer is.

[shadzar]

then i dont see Winnah's problem. he adventured for the money, and still has it...not my problem to figure out what he can do with it....

Uh...The problem is "Why would he adventure in the first place?"

now we are getting back to D&D here and leaving the WotC trash behind!

you adventure for fame, glory and honor. you set out to make a name for yourself, and make your ancestors proud. you set out with a dream of making the world better for those that come after you. you set out to better yourself, and in the proces you become a world renowned hero.

if you set out for money form the start then why did you? did you ever send any home to your family on the turnip farm? did you find religion along the way and devote your life to it?

notice that most rogues dont set out to adventure to earn moeny, but they stay in a city around a guild to steal formt he locals, so a rogue isnt always focused on some goal of supreme wealth. if he does have such aspirations then saving that money to start his own guild may be why.

the reason YOU play the game is up to you. if you are unable to find a reason to play the game, when the lure of greed is removed, then that only shows the limits of your own imagination, and either remove such limits, or find something else to do with your time.

these goals and reasons for adventuring are a big part of the character you play in D&D, more so than the number of bonuses you can wrack up. if you havent before thought about why you adventure beyond greed and bonuses...then maybe it is long since time that you do so.

again if greed is your goal, then going back to an older model of D&D means you might not want to follow suit with a new edition or format of the game to you.

MANY people were able to play and make D&D what it was without the need for greed. look to the inspiration that became D&D and see what is held there within grey mouser, Tolkien, etc. why did THEY adventure?

Smaug held a large cache of wealth, but it was the ancestral homeland that was sought to be reclaimed, and the wealth led to the destruction of the lucky number's party. the next adventure was to destroy an item that was causing the world great harm.

why your character adventures is part of YOUR responsibility to decide when you create the character.