Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[K]

We've seen enough SKR "first drafts" to have a fair idea about the level of quality we'll see in SKR's final drafts.

I have no idea why people keep blaming SKR specifically for this race system. As far as I can tell, he's just one of many developers contributing to it.

It's possible that he's taking too much blame for this, but if he is then he needs to stop defending it and take his name off it.

Adding your name to crap is just burning your reputation for no profit.

[A Man In Black]

It's possible that he's taking too much blame for this, but if he is then he needs to stop defending it and take his name off it.

Adding your name to crap is just burning your reputation for no profit.

Stephen Radley-Msomething was the one defending it, I thought?

[ModelCitizen]

SRM and SKR need to have less similar initials.

[GâtFromKI]

At level 11, Lore turns into a better Spell Domain for as long as you can feed your crippling spellbook habit and Dark Tapestry makes you a bootleg Druid/Mindbender with Planar Binding and save or confuse on tap. Time is kind of neat, but nowhere near as good as the other money mysteries.

But yeah, Battle, Heavens, and Nature are the best three, and almost make up for being a Favored Soul with a snazzy paintjob.

I have discovered a new challenger: the ancestor Oracle.

At level 11, there's a revelation which give you a fighter's BAB for a few rounds each day. And then, there's a buff which activate as a move action and which gives +3 to hit and damages. For your swift action, I suggest a Quickened Divine favor or, from level 15, a spell perfected quickened Divine power. Now the fighter feels bad.

[Shadow Balls]

At level 11, Lore turns into a better Spell Domain for as long as you can feed your crippling spellbook habit and Dark Tapestry makes you a bootleg Druid/Mindbender with Planar Binding and save or confuse on tap. Time is kind of neat, but nowhere near as good as the other money mysteries.

But yeah, Battle, Heavens, and Nature are the best three, and almost make up for being a Favored Soul with a snazzy paintjob.

I have discovered a new challenger: the ancestor Oracle.

At level 11, there's a revelation which give you a fighter's BAB for a few rounds each day. And then, there's a buff which activate as a move action and which gives +3 to hit and damages. For your swift action, I suggest a Quickened Divine favor or, from level 15, a spell perfected quickened Divine power. Now the fighter feels bad.

I would think that being a level 15 Fighter in Pathfinder was depressing enough.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Hey, they get 4 more damage total when they power attack at that level if they picked the best fighter archetype!

...

fuck.

[cthulhudarren]

As far as I'm concerned, Pathfinder is only good for fluff, adventures, and reprinting monster manuals.

[Shadow Balls]

As far as I'm concerned, Pathfinder is only good for fluff, adventures, and reprinting monster manuals.

Given how easy their adventures are I'm not so sure about one of those.

[cthulhudarren]

As far as I'm concerned, Pathfinder is only good for fluff, adventures, and reprinting monster manuals.

Given how easy their adventures are I'm not so sure about one of those.

I've heard that their adventures were actually on the difficult side. Perhaps not for hard-core optimizers. I own quite a few and like them well enough. Way more than any other company currently putting out adventures (like DCC and WotC).

[Shadow Balls]

As far as I'm concerned, Pathfinder is only good for fluff, adventures, and reprinting monster manuals.

Given how easy their adventures are I'm not so sure about one of those.

I've heard that their adventures were actually on the difficult side. Perhaps not for hard-core optimizers. I own quite a few and like them well enough. Way more than any other company currently putting out adventures (like DCC and WotC).

It doesn't take a hardcore optimizer. It just takes someone that realizes that leveling up does more than add some numbers, because the adventure writers didn't. And that is for the harder ones, relatively speaking. Most of them do things like throw humanoid, non casters who are multiple levels lower and using NPC wealth at you. In Pathfinder, where this is even more pathetic than it would otherwise be. At that point, even a Cha based Monk would have a hard time feeling threatened.

[Leper]

Indeed. Most of my use of PF modules has been unhampered by their grasp on mechanics, but then again, I'm chucking out their mechanics wholesale and converting them to 4e.

A buddy of mine ran Kingmaker as a (mostly) straight up PF game. We have a pretty broad cross section of casual players and hard-core optomizers in the group. Our general impression after a few games was:

Very low levels work pretty okay--then again, how many variables are there really at level 1?

Anything past that broke down into some pretty simple generalities:
-Absolutely casual, rules non-savvy players with no help at character creation would have found the game a genuine lethal challenge in some cases, unless they "lucked" into liking a caster class and picked the right spells.
-The folks with a passable grasp of the system occasionally found it a mild challenge.
-Anyone else wrecked face. I intentionally played "bad" classes like the Alchemist and Inquisitor and was fully capable of "soloing" most encounters that didn't specifically include "FU" mechanics aimed directly at me.

The writing and art was nice, and I found the kingdom building mini-game to be amusing at first, but way too fiddly in the long run. Mechanics were... very much what I expect from Paizo.

[rasmuswagner]

I just ran book 5 of kingmaker. They took time out of the tournament schedule to kill the ancient wyvern and make a commando raid on Irovetti's castle to free the prisoner. Having concluded that the guy was a douchebag, they confronted him with the wyvern head, and then with the prisoner. Naturally, he ordered his guards to seize them. Irovetti, his Barbarian henchman, and his sorceress (from the palace - I assumed she was at the tournament) were absolutely no match for the PCs. The presence of X number of 6th level Fighters and Bards made all the difference you'd imagine it would make against a level 12 or 13 party.

Then there are his armies. One of the armies is 100 trolls, with no spellcaster support or even a contingent of archers, marching towards the PC kingdom, above ground. Yeah, how about fuck no, enemies with no stealth and no meaningful ability to handle fliers are dead when caught in the open. Why the flying fuck would the rulers of The Land Of Three Heroes draft low-level dudes and send them to get slaughtered, when they could personally solve this fight in an afternoon without even getting their boots dirty?

[Fuchs]

Why the flying fuck would the rulers of The Land Of Three Heroes draft low-level dudes and send them to get slaughtered, when they could personally solve this fight in an afternoon without even getting their boots dirty?

My players would do this (with one exception, the player of the glory-seeking Efreeti/Barbarian) because their characters are lazy and evil (Dragon/Priestess) or fond of training and sending armies out no matter the casualties (Knight).

(That kind of showed me that the BBEG sending mooks and minions at heroes in growing numbers until he is forced to eprsonally deal with the by then experienced heroes is not as far-fetched as it sounds; my players would do the same if faced with a small band of heroes messing with their plans, and complain about inept minions when their guards failed to solve the problem.)

[Avoraciopoctules]

Is Kingmaker good enough to justify redoing the encounters and possibly coming up with a replacement for the Logistics and Dragons minigames?

[Leper]

Is Kingmaker good enough to justify redoing the encounters and possibly coming up with a replacement for the Logistics and Dragons minigames?

Depending on the system you're converting to, possibly.

As sandboxes go, it's not all that bad. I get that 4e isn't all that popular here, but the quick prep time makes it worthwhile to convert nearly anything you'd like over.

As far as replacements for the L&D... try this one. It was initially built with 4e in mind, but it's largely system neutral.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Whoa now, the modules are freakishly easy until you run into a boss fight against a caster. They seriously throw casters who are several levels higher (and have support) than the party at you..

Rise of the Runelords has a Quasit (sp?) that you end up fighting at level 2. Bitch has at-will invisibility, flight (fuck you, everyone at level 2) and casts as a 3rd or 4th level Cleric. You end up fighting a higher-level wizard later too. Any higher level caster can potentially tpk (the quasit always will if played properly, you just can't counter at-will invis and fast healing at that level) even if the DM sandbags a bit and will if played correctly.

The same goes for Red Hand. It's all horribly underleveled mooks until you get fucked up by a Behir or higher level sorcerer. Paizo needs to learn their game and realize boss fight doesn't have to equal "high level caster + fuckton of things everyone ignores."

[Pseudo Stupidity]

"A misconfiguration of the server made you double post"

[cthulhudarren]

I personally did not like the Kingmaker Adventure Path. The concept was okay, but the encounters and adventures were weak IMO. The minigame of empire building was also not very good. I liked Savage Tide, Rise of the Runelords, and Crimson Throne better.

[icyshadowlord]

I'm glad the local group of players believed me when I said Pathfinder isn't as good as 3.5e, though I still haven't been able to introduce Tome to them properly (they seem indifferent to it so far, though one potential DM seemed curious). I've also yet to tell the Wizard why Fireball and Magic Missile suck compared to other spells.

In retrospect, I am surprised that normal encounters in Kingmaker's first two books went well (that might be because we had six players at the table instead of four) up until the Kingdom building stuff showed up. The prospect of local rulers going on fetch quests for the common folk seemed idiotic to them. Also, I have read through Rise of the Runelords and some of the battles in it do seem batshit insane in terms of difficulty, and I am pretty sure the party's gonna have a bad case of TPK at some part in those.

Now if only I could remember if that piece of shit called Second Darkness pulls that off along with all the other horridly idiotic fuckery it contains from the get-go.
(I am pretty sure that has been discussed here before, so just hit the Search button if you have no idea of what I am talking about)

Edits because I failed at getting this written right.

[Shadow Balls]

Whoa now, the modules are freakishly easy until you run into a boss fight against a caster. They seriously throw casters who are several levels higher (and have support) than the party at you..

Rise of the Runelords has a Quasit (sp?) that you end up fighting at level 2. Bitch has at-will invisibility, flight (fuck you, everyone at level 2) and casts as a 3rd or 4th level Cleric. You end up fighting a higher-level wizard later too. Any higher level caster can potentially tpk (the quasit always will if played properly, you just can't counter at-will invis and fast healing at that level) even if the DM sandbags a bit and will if played correctly.

The same goes for Red Hand. It's all horribly underleveled mooks until you get fucked up by a Behir or higher level sorcerer. Paizo needs to learn their game and realize boss fight doesn't have to equal "high level caster + fuckton of things everyone ignores."

They do sometimes throw in higher level casters, yes. I think that one could be explained as an accident though, because they don't understand their own system. It's not quite that bad in the Paizo module though, simply because it assumes you use Pathfinder. And that assumes that your entire party is a caster, because everything else is useless.

As for Red Hand, the Behir isn't a caster. I don't recall any higher level Sorcerers in there. Same level, that thinks Lightning Bolt is a good spell yes but not higher level. I think you fight a Cleric or two that are a bit higher level but their standard tactics are so terrible you'll murder their face off before they get an action in against you.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

The behir is a closet troll though, and I know we only beat it because the MC sandbagged it hard. I was also told its tactics are "waits underground until caster walks over, then rapes him." It's actually likely an MC problem for me, see my "in the trenches" thread if you want more detail about the clusterfuck of horror that was my RHoD campaign.

Also, that sorcerer knows stinking cloud (unless, again, my MC was on a murderkick) and had clerics as backup (again, MC may have been out for blood).

[Shadow Balls]

The behir is a closet troll though, and I know we only beat it because the MC sandbagged it hard. I was also told its tactics are "waits underground until caster walks over, then rapes him." It's actually likely an MC problem for me, see my "in the trenches" thread if you want more detail about the clusterfuck of horror that was my RHoD campaign.

Also, that sorcerer knows stinking cloud (unless, again, my MC was on a murderkick) and had clerics as backup (again, MC may have been out for blood).

The behir will do its closet troll thing, and then the person that got grabbed will Anklet out, and the party will murder it.

Where is this thread?

By default? Koth's level 3 spell (singular) is fucking Lightning Bolt. With a DC of 15, which is what you had at level 1, on your level 1 spells. There's 0 Clerics there, and Koth takes so long to get ready that by the time he joins the fight you've long since murdered everything in the keep which triggers his "run away because no one else is alive" script.

Now if I were running it, I'd improve things a lot. Among other things Koth would get 2 extra levels, Wings of Flurry, Slow, and a bunch of gish stuff and have him throw down with AC near 40, saves near 20 so that he doesn't get facerolled in half a round by focused fire. He'll still get facerolled in 1.5 rounds by a Dispel + focused fire but that's beside the point. But by default, Koth is really very sad. And any other Sorcerer you fight is lower level than the party and not much better tactically.

Edit: Found the thread. Your DM was a cheating bastard. None of what you experienced has anything to do with the actual module. Will saves on enemies are generally in the natural 20 or fail range for example. Or close to it at least.

[Username17]

If I recall correctly, it's a half fiend behir. It flies out of a hole in the ground and super rapes someone. If it lands the Bite (at +17 to-hit), and if it lands it then gets a Grapple at +27. If that works, it then mega-rapes you where it gets six more attacks against your denied dex bonus ass and each one does d8+5 damage and then it constricts you. It's fucking ridiculous. The base bite is bullshit, but if it lands it automagically gets to ultracombo you with 7 more attacks (that is not an exaggeration). if it gets a hit on a cloth wearer, that guy is red misted in one turn.

-Username17

[Pseudo Stupidity]

That is almost word for word what happened. It actually waited for the caster to walk over it though (caster footsteps sound different I guess), then flew up, swallowed whole (no LoS or LoE to get out, no way to cut his way out due to being a caster) and then proceeded to sandbag at the party (literally using one bite and not attempting grapples each time).

Play by Play:

While exploring, we send heavily armored dude in first. He walks across the hall and finds the door/cave/whatever we need to go in to. Hide wearer walks across, again nothing happens. Caster walks across and the behir emerges holding a pebble it cast Darkness on and bites caster, getting a grapple and opting to swallow whole before any actions are had on the PCs part. It auto succeeds because the target is a caster who can't possibly have FoM yet.

After eating the caster, who can't cast in the tummy to try and escape or do damage because PF actually made concentration against good grapplers impossible (until you get FoM, when you win automatically), it then uses 1 bite a round while the party takes for FUCKING EVER to kill it because nobody can see and it's a goddamn behir, leaving the caster dead. It does end up almost 1 shotting the cleric when it decides to actually grapple, though. He survives the attack routine only due to a faulty reading of constrict.

Do behirs even know darkness?

[Username17]

Do behirs even know darkness?

3/day if they are half fiends. Of course, it's shitty 3.5 Darkness that only gives 20% miss chance, but yeah they do.

-Username17