Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:54 pm

Shadow Balls wrote:The behir will do its closet troll thing, and then the person that got grabbed will Anklet out, and the party will murder it.

If you mention that stupid item again as though it is a fact of life that everyone has it, I will say mean things to you. On the Internet.

Strung Nether · Post by **Strung Nether** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:33 pm

Koumei wrote:
Shadow Balls wrote:The behir will do its closet troll thing, and then the person that got grabbed will Anklet out, and the party will murder it.
If you mention that stupid item again as though it is a fact of life that everyone has it, I will say mean things to you. On the Internet.

Forgive my ignorance, but what item is everyone talking about?

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:01 pm

Shadow's been in the Dragon thread trying to prove dragons are shit in 3.5. Not the shit. Shit. And he claimed that a grappled party member just has to use Anklet of Translocation to get out.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:03 pm

It's a 1500gp item that lets you teleport 10ft as an immediate action somewhere between 1 and 3 times per day, IIRC.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:37 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:It's a 1500gp item that lets you teleport 10ft as an immediate action somewhere between 1 and 3 times per day, IIRC.

Swift action, 3 times, and it's "only" 1,400gp. So... yeah.

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:45 am

FrankTrollman wrote:If I recall correctly, it's a half fiend behir. It flies out of a hole in the ground and super rapes someone. If it lands the Bite (at +17 to-hit), and if it lands it then gets a Grapple at +27. If that works, it then mega-rapes you where it gets six more attacks against your denied dex bonus ass and each one does d8+5 damage and then it constricts you. It's fucking ridiculous. The base bite is bullshit, but if it lands it automagically gets to ultracombo you with 7 more attacks (that is not an exaggeration). if it gets a hit on a cloth wearer, that guy is red misted in one turn.

-Username17

I don't recall any hole in the ground. It's in the entry way cave thing overhead. The rest sounds about right, except for the part where the party apparently has no answer to this.

Koumei wrote:
Shadow Balls wrote:The behir will do its closet troll thing, and then the person that got grabbed will Anklet out, and the party will murder it.
If you mention that stupid item again as though it is a fact of life that everyone has it, I will say mean things to you. On the Internet.

A 1.4k item that twice a day:

Negates Grappling.
Negates many AoE negation effects.
Allows for a 10 foot step that doesn't interfere with a 5 foot step.

And there are probably other uses I am not thinking of.

If you don't have that item despite it clearly being so cheap and so good, I will say mean things to you. On the Internet. It's right up there with the Healing Belt in the "Every mother fucker has this. All of them. Yes, even those guys over there." category.

darkmaster wrote:Shadow's been in the Dragon thread trying to prove dragons are shit in 3.5. Not the shit. Shit. And he claimed that a grappled party member just has to use Anklet of Translocation to get out.

No, what I said is that they are tough but overhyped. And then people like Kaelik come in with their shitty parties and then try to demonstrate how the shitty party is killed by an at level dragon, ignoring that the problem is that his party is shitty, and that none of that would actually work on a good one. Not to mention that shitty parties being systematically slaughtered by at level enemies is in no way unique to dragons.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:43 pm

Kaelik wrote: Swift action, 3 times, and it's "only" 1,400gp. So... yeah.

So wait. Swifts only go off during your turn. So that means that against the behir, you'd be vaporized before your turn even came up.

How is that helping again?

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:50 pm

Swordslinger wrote:
Kaelik wrote: Swift action, 3 times, and it's "only" 1,400gp. So... yeah.
So wait. Swifts only go off during your turn. So that means that against the behir, you'd be vaporized before your turn even came up.

How is that helping again?

Because it is assumed that they survive the weak hits quite nicely. But then, given how people are reacting to basic items and techniques as if they were revolutionary, and someone around here honestly claimed that people would be running around with +2 Con mods or less at level 12 I am beginning to suspect that this board has a higher population of basket weavers than its reputation would imply.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:36 pm

It's worth mentioning the anklet doesn't even exist in Pathfinder.

Besides, most level 7 parties aren't ready for a closet troll to pop out AFTER the tank went in and AFTER it has prepped a spell (which was adjudicated using PF darkness, which means nobody but the dwarf cleric could see in it) that only the fucking wizard (who was eaten) had a spell prepped to counter. Yes, the wizard should have been a divination wizard and thus fucked the behir up in the surprise round, but we were sort of in a gentleman's agreement to not make the fighter feel bad.

You wanted to boost a caster's AC to "the 40s" and saves in "the 20s" and then said the party would still roflstomp it. Your group may be one of the only groups that consists solely of optimizers; while I am envious in a way you should know that your group is not the norm.

A normal Behir attack routine deals fucking 83 damage, assuming every attack hits (and its lowest bonus is +14, and these are on its lowest damage attacks). Your dex bonus is denied for all the +14 attacks, and the constrict which does 18 damage is an autohit assuming success on the bite, which also does 18 damage. So all wizards (and most characters) explode when a behir bites them.

Now add in a template that bumps that damage up another +2 per attack and gives it a fucking SMITE (which lasts for all attacks in PF against the poor bastard who gets slapped with it). Yeah, that way over CR closet troll makes the party into chunky salsa if they don't run the fuck away or cast mirror image/glitterdust.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:52 pm

Anyone else following the Paizo forums, more specifically the hilarious rogue threads?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:01 pm

if you plan on everyone having items in the MIC you're retarded

stop being retarded shadow balls

Anyone else following the Paizo forums, more specifically the hilarious rogue threads?

link

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:25 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:It's worth mentioning the anklet doesn't even exist in Pathfinder.

Red Hand of Doom is not a Paizo module. I didn't mention the anklets in regard to those.

Besides, most level 7 parties aren't ready for a closet troll to pop out AFTER the tank went in and AFTER it has prepped a spell (which was adjudicated using PF darkness, which means nobody but the dwarf cleric could see in it) that only the fucking wizard (who was eaten) had a spell prepped to counter. Yes, the wizard should have been a divination wizard and thus fucked the behir up in the surprise round, but we were sort of in a gentleman's agreement to not make the fighter feel bad.

You'd be 8 or 9 by that time. The closet troll in question is a weak 10.

Though, if your party was so weak that it didn't make a Pathfinder Fighter look bad, that would explain why the thing ran right over you. Well that and your DM is a cheating bastard.

You wanted to boost a caster's AC to "the 40s" and saves in "the 20s" and then said the party would still roflstomp it. Your group may be one of the only groups that consists solely of optimizers; while I am envious in a way you should know that your group is not the norm.

What I actually said was AC near 40s, and saves near 20s. And that was for a boss caster, in other words someone the entire party of 4-6 people and entourage are going to focus all of their best attacks on the moment they see them. And yes, in such a case you do have to be near immune to attacks to survive any decent length of time. But that is not nearly the same thing as making a caster that doesn't really give a fuck about the behir's weak little +15 to hits.

Especially since you encounter it right after going in. Which means all those buffs you cast before entering the dungeon are on.

A normal Behir attack routine deals fucking 83 damage, assuming every attack hits (and its lowest bonus is +14, and these are on its lowest damage attacks). Your dex bonus is denied for all the +14 attacks, and the constrict which does 18 damage is an autohit assuming success on the bite, which also does 18 damage. So all wizards (and most characters) explode when a behir bites them.

Now add in a template that bumps that damage up another +2 per attack and gives it a fucking SMITE (which lasts for all attacks in PF against the poor bastard who gets slapped with it). Yeah, that way over CR closet troll makes the party into chunky salsa if they don't run the fuck away or cast mirror image/glitterdust.

The main things I got out of that is that Pathfinder sucks, and that you should use Mirror Image. But I already knew both of those things.

Xur · Post by **Xur** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:23 pm

TOZ wrote:Anyone else following the Paizo forums, more specifically the hilarious rogue threads?

Show us the madness pls.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:28 pm

Xur wrote:Show us the madness pls.

"Hey everyone, check out this hilariously stupid thread I found (but don't troll it *winkwink*)" is verboten.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:52 pm

then PM me the link

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:57 pm

Shadow Balls, I know it is the Den and asshattery is the order of the day, but why would you assume everyone is functionally retarded rather than the alternative that you game under different circumstances and your anecdote is not definitive proof of anything?

I've never played in any campaign where I would have access to such an item. And apparently it would not matter because 83 damage is fatal to most non-meaty characters at the level you expect to encounter the Naughty Behir.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:31 am

Psychic Robot wrote:then PM me the link

Generally anything 3.5Loyalist posts.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:18 am

Without getting too meta, it's interesting how the Paizo forums have come around on the rogue Just Not Being That Good. Even the goony Paizo-is-infallible types are shouting down the Rolling Lots Of Dice Must Be Powerful! posters now.

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:10 pm

erik wrote:Shadow Balls, I know it is the Den and asshattery is the order of the day, but why would you assume everyone is functionally retarded rather than the alternative that you game under different circumstances and your anecdote is not definitive proof of anything?

I've never played in any campaign where I would have access to such an item. And apparently it would not matter because 83 damage is fatal to most non-meaty characters at the level you expect to encounter the Naughty Behir.

Because the Anklet of Translocation and the Healing Belt have broken into the stat item dominated arena that is must have items that just about everyone wants, and the only ones that don't are either people that don't know about them or people that have something better (an Abrupt Jaunt Wizard wouldn't care, for example).

I am assuming that certain people are functionally retarded because they not only do not realize that something that cheap that does that much is a must have, but by making claims that no one would want it or it isn't reasonable to assume everyone would have it. Which is total bullshit of course, since the casters in the party can make whatever the fuck they want and either there's a nice magic shop in which non casters can also buy the gear they want or you don't play a non caster because hey, equipment dependent character - ability to get said equipment does not compute.

You don't survive the Behir by using the Anklet though, you survive it because you buffed up at the entrance to the dungeon, and then the Behir jumps you the moment you walk in, when you are most ready for an attack. The Anklet is used so that after surviving the attack, you are not grappled. Alternately you could use FoM, or any number of other things that are not that unreasonable at level 8 or 9 to have.

And yet, people here are acting as if this were all new and novel concepts, and not things they have heard before many times.

It is almost as if I have walked onto the Paizo boards, in which things that have been known for months or years are being treated as new and original if they are known at all. Perhaps months or years from now, the people in question will realize that having something jump you when you're full buffed and ready to go just isn't a big deal.

For now though...

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:03 pm

Sounds like someone needs to go back to playing 4th ed. That's where I go if I want that good old rock scissors paper game play.

Didn't bring AoE damage? These swarms are going to eat you then!

Didn't bring a healer? This boss is guaranteed to down a player each round, sucks to be you!

Anyone who tells me that an item is a "must have" can go ahead and equip it in their asshole slot. Some doodads have great functionality, or a great value or both. Maybe they are just broken. Check out the magic items creation rules for an on use True Strike an unlimited number of times per day for around 2k. Wizard takes a large rifle for his Arcane Bond at first level and now he doesn't even need to be with the party, he's a sniper.

Just being awesome doesn't mean I'm any less intelligent for not having them. I don't expect my GM to throw die-no-save or inappropriate shit at me. He's a professional, he knows how to make tension and craft an exciting situation. If he didn't I would expect him to be sitting in his basement alone because I'm a professional too and I don't play games that aren't fun.

I can only wonder about the games that spawn the kind of mentality you seem to have. You must work in an arctic research station or something if you can't find a better crowd to play with.

Then again it could just be you, in which case I feel sorry for your "friends"...

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:24 pm

If I were playing 4th edition, my answer to everything would be the same singular thing that always works, and not to expect to have to counter tactics to stay in the game. 4th edition is the exact opposite of what I am talking about, and a lot closer to what others are talking about, so why you brought it up as if I would like it can only be attributed to location - I'm in a thread about Paizo stuff, so people can be expected to have assbackwards logic in keeping with the Paizo way.

The rest of that was too retarded to respond to, so I will not be replying to it.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:54 pm

Shadow Balls' position is that everyone who matters plays in exactly the most optimal manner (sometimes including precognition on the part of the players) using all material released ever, and that anything that could possibly be negated by that is no problem. Everyone else is a basketweaver/Paizoite/mouthbreather.

Getting into shadzarian arguments with him about how there are shades of difficulty less than "An optimal and prepared party can handle this challenge" is going to be a waste of time until this attitude changes.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:24 pm

A Man In Black wrote:Shadow Balls' position is that everyone who matters plays in exactly the most optimal manner (sometimes including precognition on the part of the players) using all material released ever, and that anything that could possibly be negated by that is no problem. Everyone else is a basketweaver/Paizoite/mouthbreather.

He also lies shamefacedly about damage numbers, because he's a fucking idiot who doesn't know how much damage anything actually does, so 22HP is piddly at level 5, and a level 5 Barbarian does 40 damage, even though that's not actually possible, even power attacking for full.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:26 pm

A Man In Black wrote:Without getting too meta, it's interesting how the Paizo forums have come around on the rogue Just Not Being That Good. Even the goony Paizo-is-infallible types are shouting down the Rolling Lots Of Dice Must Be Powerful! posters now.

Some posters think rogues aren't that good, and some other want to see a caster who out-rogue the rogue and out-caster the caster at the same time. If you only build a caster who out-rogue the rogue but can't do a very good job as a caster, it proves, err, "you out-rogue the rogue but your build isn't optimal, therefore you should play a rogue" or something.

... Stupid paizils.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:34 pm

The thing I like the most in Pathfinder: it's very easy to create balanced homebrew.

Anything that's more powerful than a monk with wow of poverty and less powerful than a witch with ice tomb is balanced against something else within the rule. Basically, it means that anything you can imagine is balanced.