Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Koumei]

He also lies shamefacedly about damage numbers, because he's a fucking idiot

Indeed, I was going to agree about the bit where he said nobody would have less than +2 Con mod at that stage (at level 7, +2 Con Hats are cheap as dirt, and most people start with at least a 12), but then did a quick tally and realised that meant the Wizard had a MASSIVE 33 HP, which is basically half of what the Behir is dealing on that full attack (not including the Bite). Unless it turns out that OBVIOUSLY all Wizards are undead of some kind so he actually has 51 HP, which... still isn't enough to "survive".

I then decided it was not worth the effort.

[Leper]

The thing I like the most in Pathfinder: it's very easy to create balanced homebrew.

Anything that's more powerful than a monk with wow of poverty and less powerful than a witch with ice tomb is balanced against something else within the rule. Basically, it means that anything you can imagine is balanced.

[Psychic Robot]

he was being facetious

[Leper]

I was almost certain it was, but...

Goddammit, I guess I've spent too much time on the PF boards. That actually sounded like a sincere statement.

[GâtFromKI]

I'm always serious.

[Shadow Balls]

Shadow Balls' position is that everyone who matters plays in exactly the most optimal manner (sometimes including precognition on the part of the players) using all material released ever, and that anything that could possibly be negated by that is no problem. Everyone else is a basketweaver/Paizoite/mouthbreather.

Getting into shadzarian arguments with him about how there are shades of difficulty less than "An optimal and prepared party can handle this challenge" is going to be a waste of time until this attitude changes.

No, fully optimized characters would do much better. I do expect the basics though. Nice try.

A basket weaver is someone who intentionally makes their character incompetent.

I've mentioned Paizo in the sense of doing things assbackwards, but that's it.

I don't think I have used the words mouth breather at all until now. So go fuck yourself and die in a fire.

PS: Level 8 Wizard HP: 45. The full attack is survived easily because you buffed before entering the dungeon and encounter it immediately upon entering the dungeon, so all buffs are still up. How many times have I said this again? And how many times have the retards ignored it?

The level 5 Barbarian does 40 damage because he does an average damage of 20 and attacks twice, and he hits AC 18 on a 4. This is also without trying that hard, because if he were trying he would have Leap Attack and do more. Here's the part where you contract the herpaderpies and claim Barbarians can't get two attacks on a Pouncing charge at level 5. Don't disappoint me now.

[shau]

I don't think I have used the words mouth breather at all until now. So go fuck yourself and die in a fire.

I am assuming that certain people are functionally retarded...

Shit man in black, you better apologize. You totally accused Shadow Balls of going for the ad hominem and here we can clearly see he has been the picture of civility. I just hope we don't get some sort of reputation as angry misanthropes over here due to this.

[Kaelik]

This is also without trying that hard, because if he were trying he would have Leap Attack and do more.

Totally, he would have leap attack at level 5. Which feat slot is that going to be in again? Level 1 or 3?

Here's the part where you contract the herpaderpies and claim Barbarians can't get two attacks on a Pouncing charge at level 5. Don't disappoint me now.

No you are totally right, everyone in the history of the game ever has allowed Complete Champion. Sure the MMI, where the monster came from came out in 2000, and Complete Champion came out in 2007.

But obviously everyone allows all sources, and only a basket weaver would refuse to invent a time machine to travel forward in time and obtain books published at the end of the 3.5 cycle and then use them in their games to beat monsters published in the first monster manual.

[LR]

No, fully optimized characters would do much better. I do expect the basics though. Nice try.

You have yet to define what you think an optimized character is. We can't read your mind, so you're not allowed vague terminology like that.

PS: Level 8 Wizard HP: 45. The full attack is survived easily because you buffed before entering the dungeon and encounter it immediately upon entering the dungeon, so all buffs are still up. How many times have I said this again? And how many times have the retards ignored it?

You're still retroactively assuming builds that counter enemy strategies. You need to make the argument that an average wizard will take False Life over Glitterdust, Web, or Mirror Image and won't just outright ban Necromancy. What is your image of a semi-optimized Wizard?

Here's the part where you contract the herpaderpies and claim Barbarians can't get two attacks on a Pouncing charge at level 5. Don't disappoint me now.

Please tell me that you're using Whirling Frenzy and not something that's only mundanely stupid like Haste.

[Shadow Balls]

I don't think I have used the words mouth breather at all until now. So go fuck yourself and die in a fire.

I am assuming that certain people are functionally retarded...

Shit man in black, you better apologize. You totally accused Shadow Balls of going for the ad hominem and here we can clearly see he has been the picture of civility. I just hope we don't get some sort of reputation as angry misanthropes over here due to this.

Functionally retarded =/= using the words mouth breather. They are synonyms, sure. But see how I worded it in a specific way, so if some smart ass decided to mouth off, they'd just put a dick in their mouth instead? Yeah, that was pretty clever, wasn't it? Actually it wasn't, you walked right into that.

Here's the part where you contract the herpaderpies and claim Barbarians can't get two attacks on a Pouncing charge at level 5. Don't disappoint me now.

No you are totally right, everyone in the history of the game ever has allowed Complete Champion. Sure the MMI, where the monster came from came out in 2000, and Complete Champion came out in 2007.

But obviously everyone allows all sources, and only a basket weaver would refuse to invent a time machine to travel forward in time and obtain books published at the end of the 3.5 cycle and then use them in their games to beat monsters published in the first monster manual.

Before then, you just didn't make Barbarians. Because they were a 1 level long class. Actually they still are, just the 1 level is better. Are you going to pretend people played anything other than casters in a core only game now?

No, fully optimized characters would do much better. I do expect the basics though. Nice try.

You have yet to define what you think an optimized character is. We can't read your mind, so you're not allowed vague terminology like that.

For starters, it would be a melee character with Leap Attack, which means that they do more than 40. Of course, the longer this goes on the more I see it is a waste of my time to disclose the facts, as they will simply be ignored.

You're still retroactively assuming builds that counter enemy strategies. You need to make the argument that an average wizard will take False Life over Glitterdust, Web, or Mirror Image and won't just outright ban Necromancy. What is your image of a semi-optimized Wizard?

No, I do not need to make that argument, as I am not assuming that False Life is involved, and if I did assume that False Life was involved I would have said 58 or 59 and not the 45 that I actually said.

Please tell me that you're using Whirling Frenzy and not something that's only mundanely stupid like Haste.

There are Barbarians that don't take Whirling Frenzy?

[LR]

For starters, it would be a melee character with Leap Attack, which means that they do more than 40. Of course, the longer this goes on the more I see it is a waste of my time to disclose the facts, as they will simply be ignored.

That's because your facts are wrong. Leap Attack has an 8 rank requirement and isn't a Fighter Bonus Feat, so you can't even get it without doing stupid tricks like swapping out Abyssal Heritor feats.

No, I do not need to make that argument, as I am not assuming that False Life is involved, and if I did assume that False Life was involved I would have said 58 or 59 and not the 45 that I actually said.

Sorry, I forgot that you were assuming that every Wizard has 14 Con and a Con item. But you still haven't explained how 45 HP lets the Wizard survive 70+ damage, and you still have yet to throw down what you think an average Wizard will actually take into a dungeon. What items and spell loadouts is the party taking to make these adventures so "easy"? You can't be vague if you want to be honest.

There are Barbarians that don't take Whirling Frenzy?

If you're assuming that the optimization level of the campaign is high enough to let people freely use alternate rules from UA, then they don't. They use normal rage for five levels, and then they combo Frenzied Berserker with that stupid Righteous Wrath feat. They only take Whirling Frenzy when they expect the campaign to be over in five levels.

[Archmage]

Shadow Balls is rapidly becoming the 3.5 optimizer equivalent of shadzar. At least he managed to find the shift key.

[Winnah]

If you're going to dumpster dive, at least take Battle Jump. Whirling Frenzy sucks.

[...You Lost Me]

Shadow Balls is rapidly becoming the 3.5 optimizer equivalent of shadzar. At least he managed to find the shift key.

At least he's not talking about good old AD&D teh real edition.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I don't know if Shadzar would be any less obnoxious if he liked a different system, his entire personality is defined by his autism and the fact that he throws temper tantrums because things are different.

[RadiantPhoenix]

a level 5 Barbarian does 40 damage, even though that's not actually possible, even power attacking for full.

Is it possible to rage while riding a horse? Because if you're raging and charging on a mount with a lance and power attacking for full, that's
[1d8 (lance) + 9 (18 STR + 4 rage = +6, x1.5 2handed) + 1 (enhancement) + 10 (full power attack)] * 2 = 49 average damage

If you can't rage and ride (or don't want to), it's just 43 average damage without the rage.

But mounted charges require some setup, so...

[Kaelik]

Yeah, like a horse that doesn't die even faster than everyone else to a Dragon's Breath weapon.

[A Man In Black]

Is there a reason people are carrying on the derpy argument with Shadow Balls about dragons and shit in this thread instead of the dragon thread? Especially since it doesn't have anything to do with Pathfinder?

[hogarth]

Has anyone read any comments on the Beginner Box set yet?

My prediction: It probably won't sell a whole lot of copies. I doubt that the 3E boxed sets sold a whole lot of copies either, but I could be wrong.

[Blicero]

My prediction: It probably won't sell a whole lot of copies. I doubt that the 3E boxed sets sold a whole lot of copies either, but I could be wrong.

I learned 3E off of one of the boxed sets, I'm fairly certain.
[/anecdotal evidence is anecdotal]

[Shadow Balls]

No, I do not need to make that argument, as I am not assuming that False Life is involved, and if I did assume that False Life was involved I would have said 58 or 59 and not the 45 that I actually said.

Sorry, I forgot that you were assuming that every Wizard has 14 Con and a Con item. But you still haven't explained how 45 HP lets the Wizard survive 70+ damage, and you still have yet to throw down what you think an average Wizard will actually take into a dungeon. What items and spell loadouts is the party taking to make these adventures so "easy"? You can't be vague if you want to be honest.

I am assuming that every EVERYONE has 14 Con (minimum) and a Con item. Because if you don't, you fail the check to determine whether or not you are an adventurer, and you die well before encountering the Behir.

And obviously, you survive it because of the reasons I already mentioned. Since you are too slow to grasp those reasons, here they are again:

1: You are just now entering the dungeon, so you are fully buffed up at the time of attack.
2: It has a mere +15 to hit, which is nothing at level 8 and even worse at CR 10.

If you're assuming that the optimization level of the campaign is high enough to let people freely use alternate rules from UA, then they don't. They use normal rage for five levels, and then they combo Frenzied Berserker with that stupid Righteous Wrath feat. They only take Whirling Frenzy when they expect the campaign to be over in five levels.

Frenzied Berserker is a shitty class that doesn't do any of the things it is supposed to do and requires your party to babysit you even more than they would if you were a non FB BSF.

Shadow Balls is rapidly becoming the 3.5 optimizer equivalent of shadzar. At least he managed to find the shift key.

Go fuck yourself.

If you're going to dumpster dive, at least take Battle Jump. Whirling Frenzy sucks.

Battle Jump is just an inferior Leap Attack.

Is there a reason people are carrying on the derpy argument with Shadow Balls about dragons and shit in this thread instead of the dragon thread? Especially since it doesn't have anything to do with Pathfinder?

Because as insipid as their arguments are, they still are not as bad as Pathfinder?

[Pseudo Stupidity]

I think the real problem here is that Shadow assumes all wizards in PF are either:

1. divination wizards with mirror image prepared, allowing them to pop off a spell (mirror image) before anyone else acts unless they roll below a 5 and their opponent rolls above a 15. As levels progress the wizard literally always goes first regardless of the rolls involved, as you can be rocking a +20 or higher init mod around level 10 with a 16 in dex, a feat, a trait, a familiar and a dirt-cheap item.

2. Have mirror image up. It's 1 minute per level, nobody keeps that shit up all the time when you routinely take several minutes to search rooms because modules hide wealth and don't tell DMs that's stupid.

3. Have precognition. They know they'll get into a fight and thus pop a series of buff spells with low durations before each combat.

Ignore that a character beating a monster whose CR = their level is supposed to be a difficult challenge, if you can't beat CR+3 on your own you suck.

[Shadow Balls]

I think the real problem here is that Shadow assumes all wizards in PF are either:

Ok, first of all all this dragon stuff is about 3.5, and not PF. With that said...

1. divination wizards with mirror image prepared, allowing them to pop off a spell (mirror image) before anyone else acts unless they roll below a 5 and their opponent rolls above a 15. As levels progress the wizard literally always goes first regardless of the rolls involved, as you can be rocking a +20 or higher init mod around level 10 with a 16 in dex, a feat, a trait, a familiar and a dirt-cheap item.

If you are playing PF, and you are a caster, you absolutely do win the fucking game on the spot. That is but one of many ways to do so.

2. Have mirror image up. It's 1 minute per level, nobody keeps that shit up all the time when you routinely take several minutes to search rooms because modules hide wealth and don't tell DMs that's stupid.

It does last a minute a level, but any not retarded party secures the area before searching it, instead of spending 20 minutes searching each room, only to be interrupted because the entire dungeon mobilized against them by the time they were done with room one. And you buffed at the entrance.

3. Have precognition. They know they'll get into a fight and thus pop a series of buff spells with low durations before each combat.

See buffing at the entrance.

Ignore that a character beating a monster whose CR = their level is supposed to be a difficult challenge, if you can't beat CR+3 on your own you suck.

I don't even know what this has to do with anything.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Come on now, you came into a PF thread. We're obviously talking about PF here. I'm not talking about the dragon thread because the dragon thread is about a system I have not played and thus won't pretend to know anything about. The module is easily converted to PF, according to the supposed backwards compatibility of PF (we know this is not true, but it will be converted anyways).

Casters do not auto-win in PF, they are just more powerful than other PCs. What sort of tactics is a full-caster using to not get killed by the half-fiend behir? The entrance to the cave is completely empty, and once some party members cross it you spend a while looking for secret doors if I remember correctly.

If you prebuff before every dungeon I hope you enjoy watching them run out as you look for secret fucking doors (easily one of the stupidest design decisions ever) in the dungeons. There are also many locked doors, which each take at least a minute to pick, and traps that exist solely to bother the party and slow the game to a crawl. Hence the term dungeon crawling.

Nobody puts up mirror image and goes sprinting through dungeons because that is stupid and you end up missing shit. Besides, the fighter is there to trigger combats so you can whip a buff out if needed. If somebody crosses a room safely you don't put up mirror image to cross the damn room that has no visible doors, that's a waste of resources (until a closet troll shows up to kill everyone).


You consider a character to be weak if they don't beat monsters who are supposed to wipe the floor with them. Your expectations are not the system's expectations. A half-fiend behir is a closet troll that should destroy any unoptimized (and unprepared, optimized) casters that bother it. It fucking ambushes you, so unless you prebuffed or were divination speced you lose. How does a cleric deal with the behir, how about a druid? I think that +17 bite against a flat-footed opponent is going to hit pretty much regardless of your AC and then you are dead because fuck you it kills if it gets a grapple.

[Kaelik]

PS, the Behir is fucking outside the dungeon. So unless you pre buff before finding the dungeon, you are not prebuffed.

You show up, you look around, you say... Maybe we should start buffing? Then you gather into a group to get that Recitation on all of you, and one of you walks over a Behir who instantly murders them.