What is with the entitlement? (shadzar stay out)

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Post by K »

Red_Rob wrote: Your Empire example is hilarious given your earlier comments about railroading. It really is telling that the only thing you can think to do when a character dies is to continue the same plot threads but have a new character act as a bad fill in for the previous one. If Luke and Han get killed by Vader then the story becomes about how Princess Leia gets her Sarah Connor on and then gathers a rag-tag bunch to avenge the death of her lover and brother. It becomes Kill Bill in space. That's what RPG's are about, not having the story you necessarily expected, but making it awesome nonetheless. You seem to want to come up with a story at the start and never deviate from it till the end. I really don't know what to say if you think that is how RPG's should be played.
Princess Leia gets captured three times in the Episode 4-6 movies. In your "failure = death" railroad, she'd be dead and replaced pretty often because obviously she needs to be punished for being a "bad player" who makes "bad choices" and "needs consequences."

It's still a railroad when the tracks go straight into a wall.

Most importantly, all of those people's stories are never told in the Death Railroad Universe. Han never gets his redemption because he dies before he becomes Leia's lover, Luke never masters the Force because he gets killed by an ice beast, C3PO stays in one of several junkyards (whole or in pieces), and Leia is killed by Vader in the first scene where she appears. Literally no one gets a heroic arc in the Death Railroad Universe and they must be content with a little screen-time before their pointless and tragic death occurs (see Boba Fett).

There is no story at that point because by the time you introduce new characters, they don't have time to connect to the plot or become meaningfully entangled or resolve the things they need to resolve to move the plot along. It's just an endless railroad where the wargamers get more battles and you strain the story even more as you try to force new characters into the narrative and plot threads die before they even begin.

PS. Obi-wan never dies. He's obviously a DM's old character who is a stand-in for the DM considering that he's a literally immortal Force ghost that only pops up when the players need a hint to resolve their current crisis.
Last edited by K on Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Red_Rob »

Red_Rob wrote:To say how much you rail against strawmen, I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread include quite so many per post. You might want to work on that.
K wrote:In your "failure = death" railroad
K wrote:Literally no one gets a heroic arc in the Death Railroad Universe and they must be content with a little screen-time before their pointless and tragic death occurs.
K wrote:It's just an endless railroad
I think this quote is appropriate:
Kaelik wrote:You are so full of Strawmen that I can only assume you actually shit actual straw.
With that out of the way, I'll address your point, such as it is. Character death is something that should happen only rarely. I actually feel 3.5 is a little too lethal by default. In our campaign we have made several changes to lessen the possibility of death, mainly increasing the death threshold to -10hp per level, and introducing "Hero points" which allow characters to reroll a few failed rolls per level. This gives us a level of lethality we are happy with, and has lead to about 1 death per campaign. One of the nice things about D&D is that the chance of permanent death decreases as you rise in levels, which means as you get more invested in your character your survival chance increases. So no, every character does not get "a little screen time" before marching to their inevitable death. You have played D&D, you know this, I have no idea why you are being all herp-derp about it.

As for "Failure=death", nothing is preventing anyone from fleeing, surrendering, capturing important people or any other failure result just because running out of hp leads to death. In Star Wars, for example, Leia is captured after she effectively surrenders and is kept alive as she has important information the Empire needs. The same can easily apply in an RPG; if the player throws his hands up and says "I know when the humans are planning to attack!" once he is low on hp, why would an intelligent enemy not take him back to their camp for questioning?

I think some of the "anti-death" sentiment comes about because D&D has some mechanical issues which make death the default defeat state. The threshold from "unconscious" to "dead" is too short, retreats are too hard, and the lack of wound penalties means leaving alive a nearly-dead foe is suicide. These could all be tackled with house rules to create the lethality level that suits your group. All damage could be applied as half lethal and half non-lethal, or you could apply a "disengage roll" where you can make an opposed check to gather your wounded and retreat.
DSMatticus wrote:What's your compelling reasons?
Well, they have been stated quite often in this thread, but I'll recap. I feel it is important players must be able to die to maintain verisimilitude in a dangerous world, to make risking their lives actually meaningful, to make combat personally exciting for all the players, and because it can lead to better and more unpredictable stories. The various alternatives presented in this thread all fail to provide the same level of engagement to me. Having players infrequently excluded from the game for short periods is an unfortunate side effect, however success is always sweeter when there is more at risk, so in some senses having the ultimate failure state be something the players don't want to happen is good for the game in my opinion. If your group decides they don't want character death, of course you are free to play however you want, but the idea put forward by K and others that character death is a flat out undesireable thing to include in your game is wrong.

I think that pretty much sums up my position in this thread, so I'll leave it there.
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Post by K »

Red_Rob wrote:
Red_Rob wrote:To say how much you rail against strawmen, I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread include quite so many per post. You might want to work on that.
K wrote:In your "failure = death" railroad
K wrote:Literally no one gets a heroic arc in the Death Railroad Universe and they must be content with a little screen-time before their pointless and tragic death occurs.
K wrote:It's just an endless railroad
I think this quote is appropriate:
Kaelik wrote:You are so full of Strawmen that I can only assume you actually shit actual straw.
You know, when you take a quote completely out of context and pretend that it says something it doesn't, you look like an outrageous dumbass.

Clearly, you can't handle that the Star Wars trilogy would be completely non-functional if failure in combat had to mean death and I am sad for you.

That being said, why the hell would anyone take a unknown person back to their camp for questioning in DnD? A single person can easily have the magical power to destroy an entire camp, so bringing them straight to it seems like the height of stupidity. Hell, simple misinformation can lead your army into a gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire for auto-death or some other asymmetric and gruesome death, so trusting random enemies with providing key information is dicey at best.

The whole scenario is also at odds with Swordslinger's assertion that most monsters are non-intelligent killers who are driven to kill.
Last edited by K on Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by A Man In Black »

Swordslinger wrote:That's a lot of changes, because quite a few monsters in D&D fall under the realm of beasts. And what would you do about wraiths and other life draining incorporeals? Why would they suddenly just stop draining you?
Because they need to drag your spirit back to their place of power in order to damn you forever. Until then, you're just drained and near death. How hard is it to figure out that the soul-stealers have exactly the same motivation and method as the Thugee cultists from Temple of Doom?

Honestly, Swordslinger. You play 4e. Just make soulstealing a fucking ritual instead of combat magic.
Last edited by A Man In Black on Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tussock »

DSMatticus wrote:Here's the actual argument form:
1) If there are no compelling reasons for a mechanic to exclude players from the game, it is objectively inferior to a mechanic which does not exclude players.
2) Death in D&D is a mechanic which excludes players from the game.
3) No compelling reasons exist for death in D&D to exclude players.
4) Therefore, death is an inferior mechanic.

1 is a gimme. {...} If you're excluding players from the game, you should be doing it because it makes the game better.
1: Character deaths make the game better. NB: many other games which focus on risk and reward exclude players who take too many risks. Monopoly and poker for instance. Very few give you the ability to jump back in fresh while everyone else is still going, but people still play them.

2: Maybe, usually, a bit.
3 is the actual point of debate. What compelling reasons are there for death to exclude players? I haven't seen a single good one so far; "gritty realism?" That's a joke. "Punishment incentive" from Swordslinger? Also a joke, there are more games without punishment than there are games with punishment.
If most games jumped off a bridge?

3: No one's making anyone sit in the corner with a dunce cap on, there's always plenty to do both at the table and away from it, IME. If nothing else, get stuck into making a new character. It's not "Old Ben died, so you go home now", it's "Old Ben died, want to play the Princess?" More likely still, it's a player who's sick of playing Old Ben has him go fight the BBEG so he can take over playing the cool new NPC.

4: Therefore player timeouts are an unfortunate but surmountable side effect of character death.


Characters either die (and you start a new one), are retired (and you start a new one), or players leave (and there is no more characters). Why the hell not kill a few of them, if that's what the result of their actions is? The alternatives aren't that great.
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Post by Kaelik »

K wrote:You know, when you take a quote completely out of context and pretend that it says something it doesn't, you look like an outrageous dumbass.
Seriously, if you are going to use that quote, don't say that I said it. Then it can be a thing, that people do.

When you use it like that, it sounds like I ever accused K of strawmanning, which I haven't, and especially wouldn't in this situation, because I have agreed with him this entire thread.
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Post by Username17 »

Many people who are in favor of "limited" character death will say that they want death to happen "only when a player does something stupid" or words to that effect. However, in most cases that is precisely when character death is inappropriate. As K astutely pointed out: a player making a decision that is "stupid" is generally defined as a player making a decision that the MC disagreed with - that in short it is simply a disagreement between two of the people at the table.

If one of the players decides to go to the king with their findings (or whatever) and the MC thinks that plan is "stupid" it is very probable that the MC and the player have different ideas about how the world is set up. And this difference of understanding can be worked out with honest discussion, but cannot be worked out with killing characters.

Where character death is appropriate is when a player rolls badly. Yes, when you take the 10 die fall because you have 40 hit points and probably won't even go unconscious and the dice come up really high and cause you 50 hit points you should die. Character death should happen when entirely impersonal and random observable events cause incredibly shitty things to happen to your character. Because having that happen makes all the other risks you take feel "real". If the DM fudges that shit, player agency is gone and it pulls back the curtain on all the "dangers" in the game.

If a player wants to do something that seems stupid to you, you as the MC need to talk shit out with the player. If a player fails their saving throw or a minotaur crits them in the face, they need to suffer the consequences of that.

That is completely the opposite of what seems intuitive to the people arguing for limited character death, but it's the truth. Because one person's stupid is another person's genius, and whenever it feels like the MC is railroading the players that is bad.

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Post by Fuchs »

My rule is character death only happens if the player wants it to happen or chooses a course of action after a clear ooc warning "do that and your character (might) die".
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Post by Username17 »

Fuchs wrote:My rule is character death only happens if the player wants it to happen or chooses a course of action after a clear ooc warning "do that and your character (might) die".
That really takes the threat out of monsters. Unless you do something stupid like give formality warnings to everyone as long as enemies have weapons.

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Post by Fuchs »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Fuchs wrote:My rule is character death only happens if the player wants it to happen or chooses a course of action after a clear ooc warning "do that and your character (might) die".
That really takes the threat out of monsters. Unless you do something stupid like give formality warnings to everyone as long as enemies have weapons.

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I think it's pretty clear I don't kill PCs. See "failure other than death" for "threats". having the entire party get sold into slavery and lose their gear is not exactly nothing to worry about.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Tussock wrote:Character deaths make the game better. NB: many other games which focus on risk and reward exclude players who take too many risks. Monopoly and poker for instance. Very few give you the ability to jump back in fresh while everyone else is still going, but people still play them.
You pointed out two adversarial games. I respond with almost every videogame in existence. So the "very few give you the ability to jump back in fresh" bit is right out and wrong from the get go. Most games let you start playing again immediately. The number that don't is very few.
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Post by K »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Fuchs wrote:My rule is character death only happens if the player wants it to happen or chooses a course of action after a clear ooc warning "do that and your character (might) die".
That really takes the threat out of monsters. Unless you do something stupid like give formality warnings to everyone as long as enemies have weapons.

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Was there ever a threat?

For most people, they get one permanent death a campaign out of four to six players, and even when they get one that person can get back in the game in a new character with only some story advancement lost. This means their battles are without exception an unending string of successes and any threat was obviously not there. Maybe it's because of a lenient MC or maybe they really are the badasses they think they are, but the end-result is a game where all happen to win all the time and twice a year someone has to make a new character despite the party's win.

That being said, if story losses were the only real losses anyway, why even pretend that permanent death is meaningful?

I don't know about anyone else, but my many PC's spotless record of never dying permanently in DnD for a decade or two of play is a pretty strong indicator that I've never been tested by a real threat.
Last edited by K on Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Swordslinger »

A Man In Black wrote:
Swordslinger wrote:That's a lot of changes, because quite a few monsters in D&D fall under the realm of beasts. And what would you do about wraiths and other life draining incorporeals? Why would they suddenly just stop draining you?
Because they need to drag your spirit back to their place of power in order to damn you forever. Until then, you're just drained and near death. How hard is it to figure out that the soul-stealers have exactly the same motivation and method as the Thugee cultists from Temple of Doom?
Funny how you want incorporeal undead to drag people places when they can't even touch stuff...
Matticus wrote: But Doom doesn't kick you out of the game when your character dies, yet people still play Doom trying not to get their character killed. If your argument is that we need exclusion as a punishment, you are wrong and that is the counter-example. There are hundreds if not thousands of others, single-player and multi-player.

And then since you asked for examples of how to make people care about getting dropped in combat, I gave you some: D&D has a shapeable story, and when players lose battles they stop being able to shape that story the way they want. Doom doesn't even have that.
You could use the same mechanism Doom uses, where you force PCs to repeat the same battle until they win. That's a possible punishment, but people generally don't want that, because it feels videogamey.

When people play table top RPGs, they generally are not looking to recreate the video game experience and want something different. If people wanted to play WoW or Doom, they'd play WoW or Doom.

Having the story advance in a weird way where the PCs never actually die is what makes the PCs stop caring. You're playing in a cartoon reality where your character can't die and the deadly monsters the DM is trying to play up just come off as silly and ineffectual. So your game will look more less like Lord of the Rings and more like Family Guy Star Wars where people are blatantly ignoring stormtroopers shooting at them because they know they're ineffective.

Now if you want a game that's going to be slapstick and silly, I can understand where you're coming from. But you're not setting the tone for any kind of serious storytelling.
Last edited by Swordslinger on Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Shadow Balls »

Here's a novel little idea.

Let us say that you are fighting an enemy. Now if you beat that enemy, they die. If you do not beat them, they fly away.

This sort of scenario occurs a total of 4 times at different points in time.

Several levels later, you encounter one enemy. You also encounter any and all of the enemies you did not previously defeat, meaning anywhere from 1-5 of them in total.

In effect the failure condition is "failure to defeat the enemy" and the punishment for that is "makes a later fight harder".

To those who keep derailing the thread with whining about character death being the result of mission failure, is that acceptable to you? Why or why not?
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If your attitude is "I spent my valuable time to come here, so I better be able to play every minute, regardless of what I do or what my dice rolls are"...fuck that, and fuck you.
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Post by Fuchs »

As long as the result of the end fight is not death, it's ok.
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Post by tussock »

DSMatticus wrote:
tussock wrote:Character deaths make the game better. NB: many other games which focus on risk and reward exclude players who take too many risks. Monopoly and poker for instance. Very few give you the ability to jump back in fresh while everyone else is still going, but people still play them.
You pointed out two adversarial games. I respond with almost every videogame in existence. So the "very few give you the ability to jump back in fresh" bit is right out and wrong from the get go. Most games let you start playing again immediately. The number that don't is very few.
You seem to miss the contrast between a CRPG reload system that makes you fight over and over and over and over again until you finally get the rolls to win; and limited deaths in a tabletop game, where you always win the fights regardless of the rolls. Those are very different experiences. One ends the game when you die, so you reload until the game doesn't end. The other continues the game when you die.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Swordslinger wrote:You could use the same mechanism Doom uses, where you force PCs to repeat the same battle until they win. That's a possible punishment, but people generally don't want that, because it feels videogamey.
What the hell are you doing? Do you even realize how obvious a strawman that was?
You: "We need a punishment to keep people caring!"
Me: "That doesn't actually sound true, but I can come up with a punishment: when people lose battles, they fail session/campaign objectives. Lose the battle, lose the war and all that."
You: "You know what else would be a punishment? Doom reloadiness! But that punishment sucks!"

I totally agree. That punishment sucks for a TTRPG. It's a good thing we already have that other punishment I proposed that works just fine. So what are you babbling about? You picked a punishment you don't like for D&D, but one that nobody proposed, and then started arguing with that? Congrats. Let me know when you're ready to come back to the discussion we were actually having instead of wrestling with a bunch of straw.
Swordslinger wrote:Having the story advance in a weird way where the PCs never actually die is what makes the PCs stop caring. You're playing in a cartoon reality where your character can't die and the deadly monsters the DM is trying to play up just come off as silly and ineffectual.
Cite sources. Or provide any substantive reasoning whatsoever. The only character deaths I've had in the past... 3 years have been deliberately brought on by players and it hasn't changed a thing. You are just talking out your ass. But hey, while you're taking the chance to insinuate "maybe you're just playing the game wrong," maybe your group isn't capable of anything but dungeon crawls, so the idea of personal objectives that matter beyond "reach the end of the dungeon alive" is just totally alien to them. It would explain why you literally can't understand failure/punishment without PC death. And your preference for 4e, too.
Tussock wrote:One ends the game when you die, so you reload until the game doesn't end. The other continues the game when you die.
Doom does not end when you die. When I die in Doom, I hit quickload and am playing again. I have not made any additional progress by dying, but I am still playing. This is why Doom (and every videogame, really) is the perfect counter-example to the claims Swordslinger keeps making: "unless we punish people by kicking them out of the game when they die, they won't care about PC death! Every fight will be a joke! IT'LL BE SLAPSTICK! SLAPSTICK EVERYWHERE!"
Tussock wrote:where you always win the fights regardless of the rolls
Wait, why do PC's always win? PC's should be able to lose.
Tussock wrote:The other continues the game when you die.
It continues the game for X-1 out of X people. For that last person, the game does not continue.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by echoVanguard »

DSMatticus wrote:Here's the actual argument form:
1) If there are no compelling reasons for a mechanic to exclude players from the game, it is objectively inferior to a mechanic which does not exclude players.
Stipulated, although this is a simplification.
2) Death in D&D is a mechanic which excludes players from the game.
No. Death in D&D is a mechanic which can exclude players from the game. There is a significant demographic of players who become more involved when their characters die, because they enjoy rerolling and fitting their new character background into the campaign's story in an innovative way. Research indicates that the enjoyment drop-off for repetition of this circumstance is pretty high (in other words, it's only fun every once in a while), but the fact is that players have ways to remain involved with the game even if their characters are incapacitated or dead. However, not all players will derive the same amount of enjoyment from these methods of play.
3) No compelling reasons exist for death in D&D to exclude players.
There are a number of compelling reasons, but the most obvious of them is the risk/reward paradigm. I'd like to illustrate the difference between two different approaches using personal anecdotes instead of rhetoric.

On the one extreme, I play in a Dresden Files RPG campaign as a player currently. Generally speaking, my character is highly unlikely to die regardless of what sorts of circumstances I put myself into - the FATE system grants players a lot of outs from its mechanics, and the style of the MC is heavily geared towards turning undesirable outcomes into new story hooks. Therefore, when I play my character in this game, I never feel any sense of risk or threat beyond that of the immediate situation. And, because the focus of the game is on collaboration and cooperative storytelling, that's fine. I understand very clearly what I give up in this arrangement and what I gain in return.

On the other extreme, I used to play in a high-level 3.0 D&D campaign in which the threat of permanent character death was nigh-ubiquitous. We had no fewer than four permanent character deaths over the course of an 18-month campaign (one of which was me). One of the things that I remember extremely vividly about this game was the thrill of "real risk" when we fought monsters who had attack types that prevented resurrection, such as a Phane with its aging attacks. On top of that, temporary character death was extremely common, with a party member or two dying and requiring a resurrection nearly every third combat. On top of that, our MC ported over the "limited resurrections" mechanic from 2E, which made us increasingly nervous every time our characters were brought back that we might be getting close to our limit. The overall tone of the campaign was very gritty and tense, and it was by far one of the most enjoyable TTRPG campaigns I've ever participated in. The everpresent spectre of death lent urgency and excitement to every interaction, and removing that would have meant removing the keystone of a campaign I remember more fondly than any other even more than ten years later.
4) Therefore, death is an inferior mechanic.
As I've said before, there are situations and games in which permanent character death (which we need to distinguish here from temporary death such as that correctable by an ability or circumstance) is undesirable. In some situations, the player of the character has insufficient maturity to be able to handle the death of his or her character in a constructive way, or lacks emotional investment in the game beyond the scope of their character (meaning they might lose interest in the game entirely if that character died). Any robust TTRPG system needs to provide a way to avoid permanent character death when it isn't desirable without excluding it entirely for circumstances in which it is desirable (and there is a significant portion of the demographic for which random, unpredictable permanent character death is desirable).

There are also a significant number of game systems and settings in which permanent character death is inappropriate or inconsistent with the setting. However, by the same token, there are a number of game systems and settings in which the lack of permanent character death is inappropriate or inconsistent. The key factor, which I'd really like to emphasize, is that a robust system should provide choice to its players (including the GM) as to how they wish to handle death and its attendant consequences while still remaining fully covered by the rules.

I understand that people want to streamline, but folks need to understand that when you streamline past a certain point, you start removing choices and options that other people want and degrading their experience (irretrievably, in some cases).

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Post by Fuchs »

Why is it so hard for some to grasp the concept of losing without dieing?
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Post by Gx1080 »

@echoVanguard

Once again, the D&D standard of "one size fits everything" leads to retarded discussions. It really should be a campaign mode. Just as magic items are optional, rules for death, knock-out and resurrection could be optional too.
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Post by Username17 »

Fuchs wrote:Why is it so hard for some to grasp the concept of losing without dieing?
Why is it so hard to grasp that if your character takes lethal damage from something and the DM pulls some bullshit out of his ass where your character doesn't die and he torments you with weird bullshit is both disempowering and insulting?

If you fall off a cliff and the damage roll is super high and your character dies, your character is dead. If the DM says "I decided you aren't dead, but now your character is a prisoner of the mole people" or some crap, that is insulting. On many many levels.

I'm all for things being made less lethal in general and players and enemies alike taking prisoners more often. But if the dice are against you and you die on camera, having the DM retcon that out cheapens everything. It even cheapens everything you ever did, since apparently there was a net under you the whole time. That is an act by the DM that literally goes back in time and makes your old adventures not cool anymore. It's like your DM was George Lucas.

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Post by Swordslinger »

DSMatticus wrote: I totally agree. That punishment sucks for a TTRPG. It's a good thing we already have that other punishment I proposed that works just fine. So what are you babbling about? You picked a punishment you don't like for D&D, but one that nobody proposed, and then started arguing with that? Congrats. Let me know when you're ready to come back to the discussion we were actually having instead of wrestling with a bunch of straw.
I'm arguing with that simply because you brought it up, and the fact that running your game like Doom makes more sense than the crap that most of the people here are proposing, in that at the very least the Doom system makes you not want to die, and doesn't totally kill verisimilitude of the game.

Having the game stop and reset to an earlier state is a heck of a lot easier than trying to continue with nonsensical results and blatantly ignoring the rules and common sense.

Cite sources. Or provide any substantive reasoning whatsoever.
I played in a game like that before and I stopped caring. And so I just started doing silly shit rather than follow the DM's railroad.
Doom does not end when you die.
You as the player do not "die" but your ability to progress through the story and game is halted. You're literally suck on level 7 until you beat the boss. That's your penalty.

In the D&D you are proposing that you get to actually continue the story. So you fail against the cyberdemon, where somehow his rockets don't kill you and you wake up in Doom jail or something. If you jump off a cliff and fall, you again don't die, you somehow miraculously survive and wake up in jail again.

And it gets even worse with other PCs because to you excluding people isn't a valid consequence either, because if one guy does something stupid like leaping off a cliff, you can't even send him and him alone to Doom jail.

Like Frank said, it's insulting. It's the DM telling you that he thinks you suck and can't survive on your own.
Last edited by Swordslinger on Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fuchs
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Post by Fuchs »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Fuchs wrote:Why is it so hard for some to grasp the concept of losing without dieing?
Why is it so hard to grasp that if your character takes lethal damage from something and the DM pulls some bullshit out of his ass where your character doesn't die and he torments you with weird bullshit is both disempowering and insulting?

If you fall off a cliff and the damage roll is super high and your character dies, your character is dead. If the DM says "I decided you aren't dead, but now your character is a prisoner of the mole people" or some crap, that is insulting. On many many levels.

I'm all for things being made less lethal in general and players and enemies alike taking prisoners more often. But if the dice are against you and you die on camera, having the DM retcon that out cheapens everything. It even cheapens everything you ever did, since apparently there was a net under you the whole time. That is an act by the DM that literally goes back in time and makes your old adventures not cool anymore. It's like your DM was George Lucas.

-Username17
Duh, you are really stuck on absolutes, right? All my rp is cheapened because I don't adhere to some weird dice?

Sure, sure. Same as all my RP is cheapened when I use a picture for a character I did not draw myself, or take a background from a book?

Hey, brainiac, I like playing with a net. It makes the game more fun.
Last edited by Fuchs on Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus »

Swordslinger wrote:I played in a game like that before and I stopped caring. And so I just started doing silly shit rather than follow the DM's railroad.
Anecdote. Right.
Swordslinger wrote:You as the player do not "die" but your ability to progress through the story and game is halted. You're literally suck on level 7 until you beat the boss. That's your penalty.
No f'ing shit. Why are you having such a hard time following the position?
1) Players can fail encounters.
2) Failure can incur penalties.
3) Those penalties should not include exclusion from the game.

The entire point is not "players shouldn't fail," or "there should be no penalties for failure," the point is that kicking people out of the game is an unacceptable penalty for failure. Then you said some very weird things, like "if we don't kick them out of the game, they won't know losing is bad." Counter-example: Doom. That does not mean I'm arguing Doom is an example of how D&D should be. It means, "here is an example of a game where penalties exist and they are not exclusion, your assertion is wrong." And then we've provided a bunch of examples for various encounters that show how a little creative thinking can easily get you to an outcome other than death.

The fact that Doom has failures and penalties is not a rebuttal of my position, it is a key feature of my position. Because it has them, and they don't involve kicking the player out of Doom.
Swordslinger wrote:If you jump off a cliff and fall, you again don't die, you somehow miraculously survive and wake up in jail again.
And this is ridiculous. When that happens, you have a player who is not taking the game seriously or just wants to kill their character. As in, when someone says "I want to jump off the cliff!" And the DM says, "it's high enough that it will be fatal, just so we're clear" and they say, "I want to jump off anyway!" what fucking else way to take that is but "yes, I am wholly aware that by taking this action my character will be dead and I will not be able to continue playing him, and this may entail waiting out for a bit."

This isn't about a safety net for people trying to kill their characters. If people want to kill their characters, there is zero reason to stop them.
FrankTrollman wrote:But if the dice are against you and you die on camera, having the DM retcon
The point is not to have death a mechanical option, and then everytime it comes up to go "oops, retcon." That is stupid. That is very, very stupid. The point is to take death off the table and replace it with something else and be upfront about it.

When fighting random ogre #432, death is just not a mechanical output of the system. In the same way that when Luke fights Stormtrooper #136, death is not a mechanical output of the system. But there are plenty of failure states there that are not death.
Username17
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Post by Username17 »

DSMatticus wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:But if the dice are against you and you die on camera, having the DM retcon
The point is not to have death a mechanical option, and then everytime it comes up to go "oops, retcon." That is stupid. That is very, very stupid. The point is to take death off the table and replace it with something else and be upfront about it.
The thing is: some of the people on this thread are in fact saying that you should play D&D as-is except when deaths trigger on the players to retcon them into other sorts of failure. Fuchs, for example, said literally exactly that. Repeatedly.

I am reminded of the global warming denial talking points and their denial in depth. Where one person says that you should retcon on-camera dice-earned player deaths with stupid bullshit about how the player has to go through some sadistic MC-power-fantasy capture scenario, and when people respond to that, other people jump on them for strawmanning because obviously no one is suggesting anything that extreme. I haven't been paying close enough attention to this thread to figure out what the third layer is, is someone insisting that no one is advocating rules changes and everyone is actually just suggesting that only non-lethal setups should be used within the rules frameworks that presently exist?
DSM wrote:The entire point is not "players shouldn't fail," or "there should be no penalties for failure," the point is that kicking people out of the game is an unacceptable penalty for failure. Then you said some very weird things, like "if we don't kick them out of the game, they won't know losing is bad." Counter-example: Doom. That does not mean I'm arguing Doom is an example of how D&D should be. It means, "here is an example of a game where penalties exist and they are not exclusion, your assertion is wrong." And then we've provided a bunch of examples for various encounters that show how a little creative thinking can easily get you to an outcome other than death.
But as you've just accepted: Doom would not work in a tabletop format. It would be frustrating and insulting to replay fights even twice. So it's actually not a counter example. In fact: everything that has been trotted out as being a counter example fails to be a counter example for exactly the same reason. If you bring up a game whose non player-removing system of failure punishment would not work in table top, all you're providing evidence of is that player removal is probably necessary in a table top role playing game.

There are games like Shadowfist where you aren't out of the game until someone wins. But that setup, indeed that kind of setup wouldn't work in an RPG because no one ever wins.

-Username17
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