How long does it take to level up in 3e?

[Shadow Balls]

"Hey, want to come over and hang out?"
"Sure."
And you come over, and you hang out, and all is good.

"Hey, want to come over and play D&D?"
"Sure."
And you come over, and you play D&D, and all is good.

"Hey, want to come over and play D&D?"
"Sure."
And you come over, and you find they actually want to do something else entirely, and that is not acceptable.

And the more you try to justify dicking over your friends in these hypothetical examples, the more you make yourself look like sociopaths as you are clearly only concerned about your own desires and interests with no ability to emphasize with others.

Or, it turns out this particular group means "play D&D and hang out" when they say "play D&D", because various groups do that shit all the time.

Except that that is still irrelevant, as in order to turn a 2 minute task into a 2 hour one, you'd have to be spending near 99% of your time doing the other thing. Which is far beyond the occasional, or even not so occasional off topic remark. This isn't an exaggeration, those people actually said that the process would take them hours due to off topic chatter.

In your three literal examples, you're right in the same sense that you're pedantic. So, for all of us who say "play D&D" and know what the rest of the group means, we're not too worried about your accusations about sociopathy.

And in the case of those who have shown precedent for acting in a sociopathic manner, and then make such remarks here?

Here is an example:

Various people: We're not socially maladjusted, you are! Quick, PR go hack his email account.
*PR hacks Shadow Balls' email account*
Various people: You're totally in the wrong for expecting people to act decently!

Backtrace, bitch. Suck it.

And on the off chance that you're worried you'll join a new group and get ambushed by their in-group lingo, like "play D&D", you can always just ask them what that actually means and how they game.

You know, redefining words, such as redefining "play D&D" to mean "random chatter and hanging out, and not playing D&D" is textbook autism. Not the herpity derp kind that comes from 13 year olds that haven't figured out how to express their dislike or displeasure of a person or thing properly yet, but the literal, clinical definition of the word. In other words, since that is too subtle I am calling all of the people using the word autistic autistic.

But with that said, I have my group of people I know, and we don't be douchebags to each other because that just isn't what friends do. And if we want to get together to hang out, we just do that, without lying to each other. Because that is what friends do. And offtopic chatter isn't a significant distraction from the game, and often isn't a distraction at all even when it does occur.

As a result, in game things that include, but are not limited to any hypothetical leveling up processes are not significantly delayed.

About the only legitimate reason why the level up process would take that long is if someone were playing a class that they were entirely unfamiliar with. And I don't mean as in they never played it before, I mean as in they picked a class without reading it at all. Who the fuck does that though?

[RadiantPhoenix]

*PR hacks Shadow Balls' email account*

Okay, what? Is this something that actually happened, or is it a hypothetical situation?

You know, redefining words, such as redefining "play D&D" to mean "random chatter and hanging out, and not playing D&D" is textbook autism.

I'm pretty sure what's going on is more of a case of, "this is implied," kind of like saying, "I'm going to the bathroom," instead of, "I'm going to the bathroom to spend an hour taking a shit."

[Kaelik]

WTF! Ball just went super crazy. Regular crazy wasn't enough, now he's actually living in a delusion where someone hacked his email.

[Stubbazubba]

You know, redefining words, such as redefining "play D&D" to mean "random chatter and hanging out, and not playing D&D" is textbook autism. Not the herpity derp kind that comes from 13 year olds that haven't figured out how to express their dislike or displeasure of a person or thing properly yet, but the literal, clinical definition of the word. In other words, since that is too subtle I am calling all of the people using the word autistic autistic.

Nope, wrong on all counts. Those with autism have difficulty understanding implied meaning, and can't get past the surface meaning as well as those without. What you call "redefining" words actually just refers to the concept of implied meaning and/or connotation, which is actually far more relevant in a sociolinguistic communicative context than simple knowledge of the definition of vocabulary items, because while you can infer the latter from the former, you usually cannot deduce the former from the latter. So, in demanding that the utterance "play D&D" only refers to the act of playing D&D and specifically excluding the typical behaviors which accompany it, you are exhibiting behavior typifying those with autism, according to the clinical definition. Because I don't make fun of autistic kids, I'm going to leave you on Ignore forever.

[Shadow Balls]

*PR hacks Shadow Balls' email account*

Okay, what? Is this something that actually happened, or is it a hypothetical situation?

The former. So you'll forgive me if I am entirely unimpressed by fuckers who claim to take the moral high ground and then take actions that are unacceptable under any circumstance.

[RobbyPants]

Here is an example:

Various people: We're not socially maladjusted, you are! Quick, PR go hack his email account.
*PR hacks Shadow Balls' email account*
Various people: You're totally in the wrong for expecting people to act decently!

Backtrace, bitch. Suck it.

Wat?

You know, redefining words, such as redefining "play D&D" to mean "random chatter and hanging out, and not playing D&D" is textbook autism.

I'm pretty sure what's going on is more of a case of, "this is implied," kind of like saying, "I'm going to the bathroom," instead of, "I'm going to the bathroom to spend an hour taking a shit."

This. This is how people in meat space talk.

[Shadow Balls]

Here is an example:

Various people: We're not socially maladjusted, you are! Quick, PR go hack his email account.
*PR hacks Shadow Balls' email account*
Various people: You're totally in the wrong for expecting people to act decently!

Backtrace, bitch. Suck it.

Wat?

I don't get it either, but then what do you expect from a maladjusted sociopath?

If you can't tell the difference between play D&D = play D&D and make the occasional joke and play D&D = spend 99% of the time talking about random stuff and 1% playing D&D you're a fucking idiot. I don't think you are a fucking idiot, but I have thought this before about those here and been wrong several times already.

[DSMatticus]

The former. So you'll forgive me if I am entirely unimpressed by fuckers who claim to take the moral high ground and then take actions that are unacceptable under any circumstance.

Oh man.

Now, to state the obvious: that didn't happen. Your comical choice of HACKER LINGO! is a clue, but the feasibility of the scenario you describe is the core problem. I don't think you have any idea how any of that would work.

As to what to make of this claim... I really have no idea what you're trying to do with it. You are an even bigger asshole and moron than I thought (and trust me, my opinion of you was already pretty low), or you have some genuine problems and persecution complex or are entirely too self-important or some shit, and should probably seek real help.

Either way, just walk away for a bit and cool off. You're being a little crazy.

[RobbyPants]

If you can't tell the difference between play D&D = play D&D and make the occasional joke and play D&D = spend 99% of the time talking about random stuff and 1% playing D&D you're a fucking idiot. I don't think you are a fucking idiot, but I have thought this before about those here and been wrong several times already.

If you can't tell the difference between obvious hyperbole from one guy and what everyone else on this thread was saying, you're a fucking idiot.

ITT: Shad takes one person's 2 minute -> 2 hour exaggeration and uses it to steamroll over everyone else who says they like to tell jokes when they play D&D.

[Josh_Kablack]

I don't know how relevant this is, but is my group the only one that never leveled up mid-session? .

My main group only levels up mid session when the MC is intentionally stalling for time.

However it is fairly frequently the case that the MC says "okay everyone level up for next time" at the end of a session, but then someone

• forgets,
• or left before the MC said that,
• or they missed that session due to Guard Duty,
• or maybe they just want to clarify how this MC rules on a couple different options they are considering - but they and either they or MC can't stick around around after the session that week to do the required back and forth and don't have schedules that line up during the week
• Or they don't have access to books and rules between sessions. This happens less in the era of ubiquitious internet and SRD / OGL, but it still happens - in some cases chargen programs have made this worse.

and in such cases, they are left to levelup at the start of the next session.

And if due to work or family or fucking National Defense commitments they cannot make it to the session early enough to level up beforehand, that leaves them levellup up at the start of designated session time.

Now if it's just one player who needs to level up, you can ask them to do it quietly in the corner as the game begins, or you can be a jerk and say they don't get the level until they do the math on their own time, but when it's multiple players who fall into the above circumstances, then it's usually for the best to make leveling a group activity and postpone the actual session starting - and that case is functionally identical to levelling up mid session. So yeah, it happens.

And yeah, people who fall into those categories are totally worsening the game for other players, which can be a jerk move. However, at least for my group such people are taking time away from the game session in order to do things like hold down a job (or in one case three), raise kids themselves instead of letting television do it, or defend our country. So it would be downright immoral of me as an MC to impose in-game penalties on players making such choices. In your own games, where you are the MC, you are totally free to use your power to encourage players to tank the economy, corrupt our youth and weaken our country if that's what you really want.

[Chamomile]

Backtrace, bitch. Suck it.

Did you report him to the cyber police?

[TheFlatline]

Backtrace, bitch. Suck it.

Did you report him to the cyber police?

You dun goofed!!!!

Back to the topic, mid-session levelup is rare period. However, as the DM, and in most of the games I play in, I encourage the players to turn in their character sheets to the DM. Because if s/he keeps them with all the game notes, losing the characters means there isn't going to be a game anyway. The only thing worse than waiting for someone to level up is waiting for someone to rebuild their character from scratch because they lost their sheet.

Which means that leveling up generally is done before or after a session. Unless the session ends pretty early, leveling after a session isn't as common as leveling before a session (though if it's fast enough I'll do it unless I'm getting rushed out). My problem, and I'm seeing this in the pathfinder game, is that the DM tells everyone that we're starting at 6, which actually means we're starting at 8 because some people will be late and most people will have character sheet maintenance to do and blah blah blah. I try to say people can start showing up at 6, and that we'd start playing at 7 or 7:30. That gives time to come in, level up, chat, joke, ask me questions, and get a recap of what was going on in the story.

The other thing that happens is that say 2 weeks goes by between sessions, and you leveled up at the end of the previous session. For those two weeks, it's like fight club. The game only exists between the time when it begins and when it ends. Outside of the game, nobody even thinks about their character and the direction they want to go in. So when the next meetup occurs, the player sits down and says "I have to level up" and hasn't even considered *what* they want to do during the level up, so out come the books and shit and they start researching at the table. I know players that are habitual about this, but I also suspect it can happen when players aren't invested in the game very deeply, and is a sign of a crappy game.

Other issues that can bog down gameplay and especially leveling up is to only have one core book for a group of people. I'm firmly of the belief that you can't play an RPG out of only one copy of the core book (for anything other than D&D. D&D you can sort of get away with it because you segregate the books). You need 2 or more copies, or pdfs, or whatever... During gameplay, one for the DM and one or more for the players. For leveling up, you need as many copies of the book as possible to speed up leveling. Nothing, and I do mean *nothing* is more painful in RPGs than having 5 players pass one book among themselves to level up. Especially in a new system.

So while it's expensive, my rule of thumb is that if I want to run a new game system, I need to buy two copies of the rules. And probably go print up a bunch of handouts from the pdf of the rules too. Right now in Dark Heresy I have 2 copies of the core book, which serve okay during game time but bog things down when I hand out XP (you don't level up per se. Each level you have new granular skills & talents open up to your character and you buy them piecemeal. When you spend X number of XP, you level up and a new set of options opens up, so quickly you have dozens of options you can purchase from each time you gain XP). So I've gone ahead and printed out the XP progression charts for each player in the game and the master list of talents which have requirements and a one-line descriptor and page that the talent is on. Speeds things up immensely.

In fact, I've found that logistics solves a *lot* of dead-game downtime. A well organized DM can keep the story going, because there's not a lot of page flipping and mental juggling: The DM can focus on the story and the players have readily accessible information to at least help them shape the direction their character is going.

Edit: I'm going to add one more addendum to the list of things that bog gameplay down. D&D style magic, and most magic in general, is ass-tacular when it comes to speed of leveling up. People who habitually play mages somehow are the worst when it comes to Analysis Paralysis. This, to me at least, is partially a design issue. The cop-out that magic is the swiss army knife of a setting with eleventy billion options is a bitch to deal with when it comes to leveling up, and without some structure, quickly becomes overwhelming.

D&D style mages seem to appeal especially to people who can't make up their goddamn mind. The people that I know that refuse to play anything *other* than an arcane caster all suffer from AP and can take *hours* if not *days* to level their character up, when all they're picking are 2 spells a level. It translates into game time too:

"Okay Mage, you are first since you're at top of initiative. What do you do?"

*Mage starts shuffling through his 12 page character sheet. 10 minutes later, he shrugs, frustrated, and grabs a D4*

"Magic missile"

"Dude, you're level 9. Is that the best spell you really have?"

"For this encounter, yes."

[fbmf]

Here is an example:

Various people: We're not socially maladjusted, you are! Quick, PR go hack his email account.
*PR hacks Shadow Balls' email account*
Various people: You're totally in the wrong for expecting people to act decently!

Backtrace, bitch. Suck it.

*PR hacks Shadow Balls' email account*

Okay, what? Is this something that actually happened, or is it a hypothetical situation?

The former. So you'll forgive me if I am entirely unimpressed by fuckers who claim to take the moral high ground and then take actions that are unacceptable under any circumstance.

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
That is a pretty serious accusation. Do you have any proof? Send it by PM if you like. Justice will be served.
[/TGFBS]

[fbmf]

Here is an example:

Various people: We're not socially maladjusted, you are! Quick, PR go hack his email account.
*PR hacks Shadow Balls' email account*
Various people: You're totally in the wrong for expecting people to act decently!

Backtrace, bitch. Suck it.

Okay, what? Is this something that actually happened, or is it a hypothetical situation?

The former. So you'll forgive me if I am entirely unimpressed by fuckers who claim to take the moral high ground and then take actions that are unacceptable under any circumstance.

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
That is a pretty serious accusation. Do you have any proof? Send it by PM if you like. Justice will be served.
[/TGFBS]

At any rate, I'm going to need more explanation on this, including why you think this and so forth, or something to convince me that you didn't make the whole thing up. Send it by PM.
[/TGFBS]

[Shadow Balls]

If you can't tell the difference between play D&D = play D&D and make the occasional joke and play D&D = spend 99% of the time talking about random stuff and 1% playing D&D you're a fucking idiot. I don't think you are a fucking idiot, but I have thought this before about those here and been wrong several times already.

If you can't tell the difference between obvious hyperbole from one guy and what everyone else on this thread was saying, you're a fucking idiot.

ITT: Shad takes one person's 2 minute -> 2 hour exaggeration and uses it to steamroll over everyone else who says they like to tell jokes when they play D&D.

It was more than one guy.

Now I'm ignoring the presumptuous jackasses that think to know what is going on about a situation in which they know absolutely nothing beyond what I told them, just as they have done in other situations.

Edit: I'm going to add one more addendum to the list of things that bog gameplay down. D&D style magic, and most magic in general, is ass-tacular when it comes to speed of leveling up. People who habitually play mages somehow are the worst when it comes to Analysis Paralysis. This, to me at least, is partially a design issue. The cop-out that magic is the swiss army knife of a setting with eleventy billion options is a bitch to deal with when it comes to leveling up, and without some structure, quickly becomes overwhelming.

D&D style mages seem to appeal especially to people who can't make up their goddamn mind. The people that I know that refuse to play anything *other* than an arcane caster all suffer from AP and can take *hours* if not *days* to level their character up, when all they're picking are 2 spells a level. It translates into game time too:

I find this interesting as the majority of my characters are some manner of arcane casters, and everything I have said about quick level ups remains true.

And yes, I am aware it is a serious accusation. I wouldn't have made it otherwise.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

He actually hacked your email account? Change the password to something...I don't know, that isn't your name or some shit like that. If he's dictionary cracking your password that's incredibly bad security (but still illegal). It should take at least 2 days if you're using even remotely good passwords.



Out of curiosity, what did he do once he was on there?

[Shadow Balls]

He actually hacked your email account? Change the password to something...I don't know, that isn't your name or some shit like that. If he's dictionary cracking your password that's incredibly bad security (but still illegal). It should take at least 2 days if you're using even remotely good passwords.



Out of curiosity, what did he do once he was on there?

It isn't easy to guess.

Apparently, poking around and sending spam/malware/scam emails to my contacts list. There might be more to it. Investigations will continue.

Yes, I did rule out other possibilities before making this accusation, so the presumptuous jackasses can shove it.

[TheFlatline]

I suggest taking the hacking discussion private or into another thread.

As for AP for casters, you may be an exception to my experience, but I suspect if we lined up all our experiences casters would exhibit the most frequent AP, with arcane casters being at the top of the list.

[Psychic Robot]

I did not hack Shadow Balls's e-mail account.

I have no idea why he's gone full-tilt crazytrain, but, no, I have never hacked anyone's e-mail account because that is illegal. I'm a dick, yes, but I am not a criminal. While it's cute that Shadow Balls thinks I care enough about him to waste my time trying to gain access to his e-mail account, it's not cute that he's libeling me.

[DSMatticus]

I suggest taking the hacking discussion private or into another thread.

But people are saying dumb things about how networking works! It would literally be impossible for SB to know PR had hacked his email without controlling two separate network locations: his own (SB's) email provider, and the Gaming Den. PR's ISP would also suffice, but that implies SB has been obsessively watching PR's network activity and then noticed PR 'hacking' him.

But he controls none of those network locations. No access to information from any of them. This is so impossible it's hilarious.

And yes, shutting up about it now. It's completely off topic.

[Kaelik]

The only thing more retarded than the idea that Shad knows PR hacked him is the idea that PR could actually hack him.

[Josh_Kablack]

Back on topic, I'm a bit skeptical of anyone's self-report for time to accomplish any task, unless they use a stopwatch to measure that task.

People often underestimate how long it takes them to perform an engaging task, and overestimate how long the spend in dull tasks or waiting for others - hence the saying "time flies when you are having fun". Furthermore, even when people are trying to give accurate times, they are generally horrible at giving precise times, and will round times to nearest commonly used number, which can often be a substantial margin.

[Shadow Balls]

I suggest taking the hacking discussion private or into another thread.

As for AP for casters, you may be an exception to my experience, but I suspect if we lined up all our experiences casters would exhibit the most frequent AP, with arcane casters being at the top of the list.

It's possible, or at least more possible than the others as they do have many decisions to make but at the same time, as comparatively few of those options are bad, you can get by by selecting good things that fit your theme and even if they aren't the absolute best and some other thing is 0.1% better it doesn't really matter, because you're not bottom of the barrel. Far from it.

As for the time it took me to level, I gave an example in this thread and actually measured it. A good bit of that was because I needed to look up that Master Conjurer 4 was the one that gave summons get +CL HP. In other words, something I'm not familiar with was still fast. Had it been a class level that I had memorized, it would have been even faster.

[ishy]

I do find it weird that some posters claim you are a dick if when people don't bother lvling up outside the session, that you won't let them waste everyones time by lvling up in session. If you agreed to lvl up outside the actual playing time and you can't do that for some reason, you can always place a quick phone call and ask for help or something. Not even doing that and expecting everyone to wait for you is the dick move imo.

[Shadow Balls]

I do find it weird that some posters claim you are a dick if when people don't bother lvling up outside the session, that you won't let them waste everyones time by lvling up in session. If you agreed to lvl up outside the actual playing time and you can't do that for some reason, you can always place a quick phone call and ask for help or something. Not even doing that and expecting everyone to wait for you is the dick move imo.

I agree with this. You should do the things that you said you would do. If you didn't think you'd have time, then don't say that. If you think you had time and then get blindsided by something, it's a quick and easy phone call or text message or IM or whatever you'd like to keep them informed.