Pathfinder is more successful than anything you could design

[Lago PARANOIA]

Bad artists are wicked cheap. I mean, part of the cost-cutting at WotC was obviously the art budget and the editing and I think we know where that leads.

I think the artist market is oversaturated. So even though bad artists are wicked cheap (and a lot of the character pictures in the X Power books are just awful) a good one probably isn't all that expensive if you're willing to spend a week or so scrounging websites where artists hang out. Hell, if you were willing to dump a thousand bucks for a cover I bet even artists that weren't open for commission would be willing to listen to you.

[Prak]

A decent piece of art for the cover can run you $5K

Where are you shopping for your prices?

If I had $1K worth of money and a week to troll deviantart I could find someone awesome for that amount of cash. Hell, I could probably find someone who'd make something at least as good as every 4th Edition D&D cover (including the Monster Manual 2, the only one I liked) for just 500.

how about we not undermine the art market by dickishly taking advantage of people that don't know how the business side works?

[Chamomile]

You're going to need to do a lot more than make passive aggressive suggestions when the topic comes up in casual conversation with acquaintances if you want to actually change the way the art industry works. If you plan on using the industry as it is, then don't bother getting worked up when people on the other end do the same thing. If you plan on changing the industry, then the whole Gaming Den is too insignificant for you to worry about anyway.

[Prak]

My point is that we should offer a fair price for a person's work, rather than dumpster dive for someone of whom we can take advantage. Do you seriously have a problem with that?

[Chamomile]

I don't think getting into this fight with someone I game with weekly would be wise, so I'm just going to drop it.

[Prak]

yeah, fair enough. I can see a point for your side, but I'm on mine due to personal investment and family and friends.

[A Man In Black]

Where are you shopping for your prices?

If I had $1K worth of money and a week to troll deviantart I could find someone awesome for that amount of cash. Hell, I could probably find someone who'd make something at least as good as every 4th Edition D&D cover (including the Monster Manual 2, the only one I liked) for just 500.

The difference between the amateur you find on dA and an actual pro you find on a place like conceptart.org (or just dA, there are real pros all over the place there) is that the real pro can deliver thumbs and sketches and finished works to meet your milestones, can meet deadlines, and will not otherwise waste your time. It is exactly the same difference between hiring a talented amateur and hiring an actual professional in any other creative field. Prak, you don't need to worry, because people who demonstrate the ability to perform like pros as well as draw pretty pictures are the ones who get paid like pros.

[OgreBattle]

So Ogre's thrust is something like "So they must being doing something right and you have no room to complain because you're not as successful as them so you're just whining because you'll never do anything."

I'm on the Den, the appropriate way to title a thread is something smug and accusatory. This thread is progressing nicely and in an interesting direction.

[Daztur]

To get a game to sell what's more important than solid mechanics is the ability to really kick-start the imagination. Virtually all good-selling games have been far better at the second than the first. Whatever else can be said about Pathfinder, it certainly READS a lot better than 4ed or any came I could make personally (I tend towards bare bones when it comes to rule text, which works fine in play but isn't going to sell me any books).

[malak]

Whatever else can be said about Pathfinder, it certainly READS a lot better than 4ed or any came I could make personally (I tend towards bare bones when it comes to rule text, which works fine in play but isn't going to sell me any books).

I don't agree. Pathfinder rulebooks present all the rules hidden within walls of text. 4e is much cleaner and more concise when it comes to the presentation of the rules. But I think that (in addition to the crappier art in most 4e books) put off a lot of people - since rule presentation in 3e books was often bad in the same ways that it is in PF books.

[infected slut princess]

My point is that we should offer a fair price for a person's work, rather than dumpster dive for someone of whom we can take advantage. Do you seriously have a problem with that?

If the artist accepts the amount you offer, that is a fair price. End of discussion.

If the artist thought it was so horribly unfair, they would ask for more or just tell you to fuck off.

You have zero business sense at all.

[hogarth]

Whatever else can be said about Pathfinder, it certainly READS a lot better than 4ed or any came I could make personally (I tend towards bare bones when it comes to rule text, which works fine in play but isn't going to sell me any books).

I don't agree. Pathfinder rulebooks present all the rules hidden within walls of text. 4e is much cleaner and more concise when it comes to the presentation of the rules.

I agree that 4E is better when it comes to looking up a particular rule. But when it comes to picking up a book and reading it for entertainment value, 4E is about as entertaining as stereo instructions.

[Ice9]

I've come to a realization. Pathfinder isn't exactly not balanced - it's balanced the way that a newbie MC would do it. Remember when you started playing and the Monk looked so awesome it must be OP, and the Wizard looked pretty "meh" because it had few class features and crappy HD/skills/BAB?

That's where Pathfinder's balance is coming from - the place where Magic Missile is the best 1st-level spell. And apparently, a number of people like that. They don't want to do research and re-evaluate their ideas of what's powerful, they just want Pathfinder to tell them they were right all along and that DR 5/- at 20th level does make the Fighter awesome.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The difference between the amateur you find on dA and an actual pro you find on a place like conceptart.org (or just dA, there are real pros all over the place there) is that the real pro can deliver thumbs and sketches and finished works to meet your milestones, can meet deadlines, and will not otherwise waste your time. It is exactly the same difference between hiring a talented amateur and hiring an actual professional in any other creative field.

Very true. If you were developing an established product line you'd want to go with artists who can do the job quickly and professionally, but for your first-time vanity project that no one is expecting you should just suck up the extra three weeks and browbeating the artist to get it done. If you kick so much ass that you can become an established product line you can switch artists if they were flaky; if not you can step up the pay and put them in your established stable if they want a permanent job. There's no way you're going to avoid having to pay extra, but when you're in game limbo there's no time pressures until you actually produce the game.

[Prak]

My point is that we should offer a fair price for a person's work, rather than dumpster dive for someone of whom we can take advantage. Do you seriously have a problem with that?

If the artist accepts the amount you offer, that is a fair price. End of discussion.

If the artist thought it was so horribly unfair, they would ask for more or just tell you to fuck off.

You have zero business sense at all.

sorry I seem to have accidentally left out the word market. The fair market price for a cover piece is roughly $3000-5000. You can find people who'll do it for less, but you get what you pay for and there's less of a chance of getting what you want when you want it.

[infected slut princess]

sorry I seem to have accidentally left out the word market. The fair market price for a cover piece is roughly $3000-5000. You can find people who'll do it for less, but you get what you pay for and there's less of a chance of getting what you want when you want it.

First you said it would be "taking advantage of someone" to offer them less for their art than what would be a "fair" price (as defined by you).

Now you say that if you pay less than the "market price" for cover art (which you declare to be $3000-5000), you "get what you pay for". I.e. you are not taking advantage of someone -- you are buying a lower quality product. Well no kidding.

So what is your point anyway? That if you don't pay enough for good art delivered by deadline, you won't get good art delivered by deadline? That seems pretty obvious. And yet I am sure there are ways to stretch a limited art budget and get good quality work.

Give me 500K and I can get you a new and better edition of DnD in under a year, playtesting, promotion, printing, and all.

So? You can make a product with half a million dollars and promote it. Anyone can do that.

The real question is, can you make money with it? If I invest in your game, am I going to make money?

Because investors -- the people with money -- want to make more money. If you're an entrepreneur with no money, and you can prove to others that you can make money, then raising capital is not impossible by any means.

If you can show that you can make real profits with this, then you can raise real capital from real people. Hell, I would personally invest in it, because I like to make money and I would personally love to see an awesome "new and better edition of DnD". But no one with money is going to give you money to prove, "Hey, with a bunch of money I could make a product that won't make any money."

[Count Arioch the 28th]

On a side note, every time I see the name "Infected Slut Princess" I think of a girl I dated a couple years back...

[infected slut princess]

I don't agree. Pathfinder rulebooks present all the rules hidden within walls of text. 4e is much cleaner and more concise when it comes to the presentation of the rules. But I think that (in addition to the crappier art in most 4e books) put off a lot of people - since rule presentation in 3e books was often bad in the same ways that it is in PF books.

I think you missed that dude's point. I don't think he was talking about the rules at all, really. He was talking about how reading the book gets the reader excited to use the rules to tell stories. "Kick-start imagination" or whatever he said. 4e is fucking BORING to read and that is a serious flaw.

I remember when we were kids we played RIFTS, we identified some fucked up rules and fucked up balance (we didn't use the word "balance", we just said it "wasn't fair"). But we wanted to play it anyway because it "kick-started the imagination". We wanted to tell stories in the RIFTS world because it seemed exciting and interesting. The same was true for V:tm and AD&D, which had fucked up rules but they got us interested in the many possibilities. Our imagination was on fire with these games, even though the mechanics were shit in many ways.

Now, to the point that "Pathfinder kick starts imagination better than 4e", I think that is because "older D&D" (like anything before 4e, including Pathfinder), fires up the imagination better than 4e... so it's an interesting question as to why exactly that is true.

[Ice9]

PFs presentation is pretty nice. I think it's mainly down to a couple factors:
1) Artwork.
2) The fonts / page background do the "old tome" thing like the 3.0 PHB, but better. Yeah, theoretically, 4E's white space should be easier to read - but in practice the PF books are a more enjoyable experience.

[Prak]

sorry I seem to have accidentally left out the word market. The fair market price for a cover piece is roughly $3000-5000. You can find people who'll do it for less, but you get what you pay for and there's less of a chance of getting what you want when you want it.

First you said it would be "taking advantage of someone" to offer them less for their art than what would be a "fair" price (as defined by you).

Now you say that if you pay less than the "market price" for cover art (which you declare to be $3000-5000), you "get what you pay for". I.e. you are not taking advantage of someone -- you are buying a lower quality product. Well no kidding.

So what is your point anyway? That if you don't pay enough for good art delivered by deadline, you won't get good art delivered by deadline? That seems pretty obvious. And yet I am sure there are ways to stretch a limited art budget and get good quality work.

Ok, here's the deal princess. You can fucking do whatever the hell you want, I have no control over you. K can as well. If K wants to dumpster dive through DA and find someone who does awesome art, and offer them a shit price for what is honestly a lot of work, he can do that. He may even find someone willing to work for that price. Ultimately he is then likely to have to put up with an unprofessional person. But again, he can totally do that if he wants to.

The going rate, however, which, by the way, I'm not declaring, I consulted my dad's books that talk about this, is roughly $3000-$5000. For that money, you get an artist and graphic designer to handle your cover, and turn out a (hopefully) awesomely designed product for you (It's important to note here that you'll want to find someone with a bachelor's in graphic design, or at least see a very large portfolio of their work).

The taking advantage of them part comes in when you dumpster dive DA for someone who is talented, but doesn't know business. You can lowball them a price, and they'll likely take it, especially if you feed them the usual bullshit like "you can use it in your portfolio" or "if this takes off, we'll have more work for you in the future."

Basically, it's the difference between hiring an actual contractor, or picking up some random guy in front of home depot who says they know how to do electrical.

[infected slut princess]

On a side note, every time I see the name "Infected Slut Princess" I think of a girl I dated a couple years back...

I hope the test results came back negative.

The taking advantage of them part comes in when you dumpster dive DA for someone who is talented, but doesn't know business. You can lowball them a price, and they'll likely take it, especially if you feed them the usual bullshit like "you can use it in your portfolio" or "if this takes off, we'll have more work for you in the future."

This makes no sense to me.

I guess it is taking advantage of people if I hire a high quality slut for $1000 per hour, but only pay the low quality slut $20 per hour.

If the no-name bulk-rate ghetto awesome artist wants the same price as the awesome artist with a good reputation and huge portfolio of awesome professional work, then the no-name artist is never going to get anywhere. They have to accept a lower market price.

I have contracted out accounting, legal, and IT services to less established individuals/firms to save money. The quality of the work is usually pretty good. Sure, sometimes it's best to hire the "big names" for something, but not always. I don't see why the same principle does not apply to buying art for a game book.

People are not as retarded as you seem to think, especially when it comes to selling their time and effort. Even if they "don't know business." So you "lowball" the price (according to what?) -- the person can accept that price or not. If they do not accept it, only then would you say the offered price is "trying to take advantage of the artist." But if they DO accept it, it is because it IS a fair price to that person. If not, they simply won't take the offer.

PFs presentation is pretty nice. I think it's mainly down to a couple factors:
1) Artwork.
2) The fonts / page background do the "old tome" thing like the 3.0 PHB, but better. Yeah, theoretically, 4E's white space should be easier to read - but in practice the PF books are a more enjoyable experience.

Accepting that art/presentation is important, I am interested less in "easy to read" and more interested in "gets the imagination revved up", like that one dude was talking about. 2e/3e/pathfinder seem to do that. 4e does not.

Presentation-wise, my 2e AD&D PHB is pretty bland, but it still is more interesting to read than the 4e PHB. The spell descriptions in the 3e PHBs are more interesting to read than the power lists in the 4e phb. My old ROBOTECH rpg book has shit rules and some hilariously bad art but it's more interesting to read than 4e. 4e has to be have most fucking boring TTRPG rulebooks of all time.

[OgreBattle]

Yeah, RIFTS books are a blast to read. I like Eric Wujcick's writing in particular.

Whatever else can be said about Pathfinder, it certainly READS a lot better than 4ed or any came I could make personally (I tend towards bare bones when it comes to rule text, which works fine in play but isn't going to sell me any books).

I don't agree. Pathfinder rulebooks present all the rules hidden within walls of text. 4e is much cleaner and more concise when it comes to the presentation of the rules. But I think that (in addition to the crappier art in most 4e books) put off a lot of people - since rule presentation in 3e books was often bad in the same ways that it is in PF books.

That is a failing of 4e though, the rules are too clearly written and too precise. That's why people like to say everything is too samey. 3.X has at-wills, encounters and dailies for non magical classes too, but they hide it in the text.


In say, Magic: the Gathering terms...

4e:


3.x:

[Count Arioch the 28th]

On a side note, every time I see the name "Infected Slut Princess" I think of a girl I dated a couple years back...

I hope the test results came back negative.

It did. I had the results framed and hung on my wall for a time.

[infected slut princess]

Ogrebattle,

I disagree. I don't think it's the format that is less interesting in itself. Maybe the more straight-forward format loses some ineffable mystique, but is there instead something about the rules themselves, or about how the writers discuss the rules in the book, that is less evocative?

I found these 3e things formatted 4e-style. What are your thoughts?








EDIT: clarified a bit.

[RadiantPhoenix]

That is a failing of 4e though, the rules are too clearly written and too precise. That's why people like to say everything is too samey. 3.X has at-wills, encounters and dailies for non magical classes too, but they hide it in the text.


In say, Magic: the Gathering terms...

I think that a better analogy for 4e's presentation might be flip cards, actually.