Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[GâtFromKI]

Here comes the C-MD argument again.

If we weren't having a C-MD argument, this wouldn't be a fantasy game.

Casters are supposed to be more powerful than martials in a fantasy game. It is a trope of fantasy. Probably 80 to 90% of fantasy books are built on the caster-martial disparity with a caster BBEG.

This is one of the reasons that games that don't have a C-MD won't be successful as those that do. Fantasy fans know that is how it is supposed to be including the game designers at Paizo, who base more of what they do on books than gamist ideas.

All you need to do is take some of the greatest fantasy books of all time and ask yourself who is the villain? Most of the time it is some powerful caster that a group of martials with their own powerful caster have to deal with.

The martials get to be the underdog heroes in general, while the casters get to be their sidekicks or their villains. The martials usually get the girl too. They should be happy with that.

It's a trade off.

I'm...not sure what to say to this.

I though Cha was a dump stat for martial characters and a primary stat for some casters...

And I don't even remember which girl Dhrun or Aillas got, but I clearly remember that Shimrod had sex with fairies.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

I don't think I've seen a single martial character in PF who has a cha above 10. It's usually 7, to be completely honest.

List of PF characters I've played with and their Cha:

Elf Wizard: Cha 7.

Elf Fighter: Cha 7.

Human Sorcerer: Cha 20.

Dwarf Cleric: Cha 13

Human Ranger: Cha 7

Half-orc Fighter: Cha 7

Dwarf Cleric: Cha 7

Human Magus: Cha 7

Human Paladin: Cha 14

Rogue of Harf-Elf: Cha 10

Human witch: Cha 10



Wow, all the heros in Pathfinder are ugly, maladjusted psychopaths (except Sorcerers, Paladins and sometimes Clerics). If you add in Int it becomes more fun, because none of the mundanes have higher than a 10 in that either. That's not even a bunch of optimizers, my group had trouble with RHoD (though, cheating DM).

Not smart and not charming? Probably no luck with the ladies.

[icyshadowlord]

No wonder they all seem to have power fantasies concerning rape. Their characters are so ugly they don't seem to have any other options. Then again, that would make it all the more fun to play a Paladin and smite some rapist bastards. (Now why did I make a joke like this again?)

[TheFlatline]

Fun fact: my group of players is really afraid of ancient one in Arkham Horror. But because they are dangerous, since most of them aren't (most of them have a simple countdown "you have only 8 turn to kill him"), but because winning the game after his apparition implies the roll of 300+ dice.

Personally, I think the game designers of Arkham Horror are fucking retarded.

I've seen such an anti-climatic battle only once: the only time I played D&D4, we were level 11 and we were fighting a solo monster with 600+ HP. I also think the game designers of D&D 4 are fucking retarded, even more retarded than SKR.

Generally speaking, with Arkham Horror, most of the fans of the game have a gentleman's agreement that if an elder god shows up and you do the showdown, at best beating the elder god counts as a "draw" instead of a win, usually because it's that unsatisfying of a conclusion.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Generally speaking, with Arkham Horror, most of the fans of the game have a gentleman's agreement that if an elder god shows up and you do the showdown, at best beating the elder god counts as a "draw" instead of a win, usually because it's that unsatisfying of a conclusion.

I disagree -- sitting through an attrition-fest that long is an achievement worth being proud of.

[GâtFromKI]

Generally speaking, with Arkham Horror, most of the fans of the game have a gentleman's agreement that if an elder god shows up and you do the showdown, at best beating the elder god counts as a "draw" instead of a win, usually because it's that unsatisfying of a conclusion.

Those fans are stupid and should be ashamed of themselves.

Some of the Ancient One are designed to appear quickly and be easily beaten if you took the right actions during the game. There is even a spell that make the Ancient One appear.

So what? Each Ancient One which is very hard to prevent appearing isn't part of the game? Each effect tied to the apparition of the elder god isn't part of the game? The strategy of making the Ancient One appears at a time the players know they will beat him isn't a valid strategy? Why does the game designers continually create new things tied to the fight with the Ancient One?

[Username17]

So what? Each Ancient One which is very hard to prevent appearing isn't part of the game? Each effect tied to the apparition of the elder god isn't part of the game? The strategy of making the Ancient One appears at a time the players know they will beat him isn't a valid strategy? Why does the game designers continually create new things tied to the fight with the Ancient One?

No. It's that Yig is considered very difficult because he shows up very fast and beating him in combat is only considered a winning draw.

-Username17

[rasmuswagner]

Those fans are stupid and should be ashamed of themselves.

All fans of the game are and should. The game has concept, artwork and flavor text...and gameplay that's about as much fun as RISK.

[Miryafa]

Here comes the C-MD argument again.

If we weren't having a C-MD argument, this wouldn't be a fantasy game.

Casters are supposed to be more powerful than martials in a fantasy game. It is a trope of fantasy. Probably 80 to 90% of fantasy books are built on the caster-martial disparity with a caster BBEG.

This is one of the reasons that games that don't have a C-MD won't be successful as those that do. Fantasy fans know that is how it is supposed to be including the game designers at Paizo, who base more of what they do on books than gamist ideas.

All you need to do is take some of the greatest fantasy books of all time and ask yourself who is the villain? Most of the time it is some powerful caster that a group of martials with their own powerful caster have to deal with.

The martials get to be the underdog heroes in general, while the casters get to be their sidekicks or their villains. The martials usually get the girl too. They should be happy with that.

It's a trade off.

I'm...not sure what to say to this.

There's generally no C-MD in video games. I for one like FFVII (it was the first vgrpg game I played, so go figure). Fighters and Mages are one.

I think the fact that there is a C-MD in ttrpgs probably says more about the ttrpgs than about the difference between castors and martials. To use D&D 3.5 as an example, it seems to me that the creators said:
"1. There should be a definite difference between people that use magic and people that do not.
2. The people that use magic should get every conceivable kind of magical power, while the people that do not should not get every conceivable kind of physical power, but should instead be limited by what physical bodies can conceivably do."

As experienced gamers interested in balance, we can immediately see the problems with those two creative assumptions, especially the second. It leads immediately to the kind of insanity that is the C-MD of 3.5 at levels 11+, and which Races of War was written to remove, and which (probably) incited Frank to say that to create a really great ttrpg, the D&D framework has to be scrapped and rewritten altogether.

[hogarth]

There's generally no C-MD in video games.

Whuh? We must be playing different video games. I can't think of a single video game that (a) has magic, and (b) is just as easy to win if you avoid magic altogether. Usually it's ten times harder.

[Slade]

There's generally no C-MD in video games.

Whuh? We must be playing different video games. I can't think of a single video game that (a) has magic, and (b) is just as easy to win if you avoid magic altogether. Usually it's ten times harder.

I can think of two:
1) Arcanum (focus on Technology, at start it is harder as you don't know many schematics but soon awesome). Still easy to win if you focus.
2) Saga Frontier 2 (Gustave's story, as he can't use magic). Being unable to generate anime (magic) makes you magic resistant to harmful effects (you can still be healed by allies, but you can just use items if you don't want any casting from allies).

[NineInchNall]

Yar, generally the only kind of magic you give a shite about in jrpgs is healing magic. This also holds up in Skyrim, actually, where the only types of magic you give a shit about are ... healing ... and summoning, maybe. Like really.

[hogarth]

Yar, generally the only kind of magic you give a shite about in jrpgs is healing magic. This also holds up in Skyrim, actually, where the only types of magic you give a shit about are ... healing ... and summoning, maybe. Like really.

I haven't played Skyrim yet, but in Oblivion you could certainly get along just fine with just Restoration and Illusion (for instance). But it still seemed pretty goddamn mandatory to have some magic!

[Darth Rabbitt]

The difference is, that in most video game RPGs, you're probably (in some cases definitely) going to have both magic and fighting abilities/skills, as opposed to just one or the other, which usually the case in pen and paper games (unless you're a Cleric or a Gish or something).

So in that sense there's less of a divide, because (almost) everyone has some of both.

On a side note, I find it hilarious that my spell checker finds "Gish" to be a real word, but not "RPGs."

[hogarth]

The difference is, that in most video game RPGs, you're probably (in some cases definitely) going to have both magic and fighting abilities/skills, as opposed to just one or the other, which usually the case in pen and paper games (unless you're a Cleric or a Gish or something).

In most video game RPGs I've played, you can choose not to have any characters who have learned magic. It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do, but you could do it.

[Miryafa]

There's generally no C-MD in video games.

Whuh? We must be playing different video games. I can't think of a single video game that (a) has magic, and (b) is just as easy to win if you avoid magic altogether. Usually it's ten times harder.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that there are video games that has both magic and martial abilities, and are just as easy to win by avoiding martial abilities altogether.

In that case, you're talking about examples of video games where either the C-MD favors martial or magic users. That's a perfectly reasonable response to my comment that I have not played any video games (that I can remember) where there was a C-MD. However, I think it detracts from my main point, which was that in almost every video game I have ever played, magic and martial users were either on an equal power footing, or were not differentiated at all (i.e. everyone was a gish). That includes:
Suikoden I & II
Final Fantasy I, II, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, Tactics & Tactics Advance
Valkyrie Profile II
Mortal Combat 1, 2, 3
Mario 1, 2, 3, 64, & World
Halo 1, 2 & 3
Star Wars KOTOR
Morrowind
Most of the Zelda games
Golden Sun
Fire Emblem
Super Smash Bros Melee, Brawl
Pokemon
Metal Gear Solid 1 & 2
Disgaea

I suppose the Aladdin vg supports the C-MD. Maybe Crash Bandicoot too. But my point is that I think most video games do not have a CM-D.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Do games where both are necessary count as C-MD?

i.e., you can't win (easily) without mages, but you can't win (easily) with just them either?

[hogarth]

There's generally no C-MD in video games.

Whuh? We must be playing different video games. I can't think of a single video game that (a) has magic, and (b) is just as easy to win if you avoid magic altogether. Usually it's ten times harder.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that there are video games that has both magic and martial abilities, and are just as easy to win by avoiding martial abilities altogether.

In that case, you're talking about examples of video games where either the C-MD favors martial or magic users. That's a perfectly reasonable response to my comment that I have not played any video games (that I can remember) where there was a C-MD. However, I think it detracts from my main point, which was that in almost every video game I have ever played, magic and martial users were either on an equal power footing, or were not differentiated at all (i.e. everyone was a gish). That includes:
Suikoden I & II
Final Fantasy I, II, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, Tactics & Tactics Advance
Valkyrie Profile II
Mortal Combat 1, 2, 3
Mario 1, 2, 3, 64, & World
Halo 1, 2 & 3
Star Wars KOTOR
Morrowind
Most of the Zelda games
Golden Sun
Fire Emblem
Super Smash Bros Melee, Brawl
Pokemon
Metal Gear Solid 1 & 2
Disgaea

I suppose the Aladdin vg supports the C-MD. Maybe Crash Bandicoot too. But my point is that I think most video games do not have a CM-D.

I find it hard to believe that you won Morrowind without a non-magic using character, or KOTOR without using a Jedi (since that's impossible...). Many of those games you mention aren't even RPGs, so I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

[RadiantPhoenix]

or KOTOR without using a Jedi (since that's impossible...).

I think you can win KOTOR without using force powers, though. It's just much harder, because the final boss...

EDIT: Also, Jedi count as gishes.

[Maxus]

Hm...That Force Unleashed game had a pretty huge Caster/Combat disparity. You could do all kinds of telekinesis and force tricks to the majority of the game's enemies because they had no means of fighting back against lightning bolts or being picked up and thrown from a hundred yards away.

Leaving aside the lightsaber, you could do a ton of fighting and slaying with the force powers alone.

Edit: So I suppose the point is, the biggest source of a caster-combat disparity is when the combat folks have no means of countering or fighting back against the caster's powers. If they can't do something to match or reduce the range, that's a big disadvantage. If they can't resist or ignore any of the attacks, that's another big drawback.

[sake]

Yar, generally the only kind of magic you give a shite about in jrpgs is healing magic. This also holds up in Skyrim, actually, where the only types of magic you give a shit about are ... healing ... and summoning, maybe. Like really.

I can't say I ever needed to cast a healing spell on my characters due to there being a health pot in every other chest and on every shelf... I ended up with dozens of pots without ever actually having to bother stealing, buying, or making any of them. And really, summoning's best trick is just conjuring up a bow and limitless free super arrows anyway.

Magic's pretty worthless all around in Skyrim. But that's because the game took the "Make casters into sickly archers only with more weaknesses and really flashy effects on their arrows" route to deal with the problem. They've weakened offensive spells (don't even get me started on the Master level Destruction spells), cut most of the utility and buff spells, removed custom spell creation, completely unlinked item enchantment from spell casting, and brought back Morrowind's 'magic jazz hands' casting mode to limit those pesky hybrid characters.


Good old stealth+bow is the most insanely overpowered thing in Skyrim and easily all you'd need to win the game forever.


Also Morrowind was pretty easy to do without being a spell caster too, but that was more because it had awesome magic items that actually did stuff just exploding out of every chests and dead body you came across, instead of the dull-ass passive buff gear they filled the later games with.

[hogarth]

Also Morrowind was pretty easy to do without being a spell caster too, but that was more because it had awesome magic items that actually did stuff just exploding out of every chests and dead body you came across, instead of the dull-ass passive buff gear they filled the later games with.

Are you saying you actually played the whole game without casting a single healing spell or teleport spell?

Also, Jedi count as gishes.

If a game where fighter/magic-users exist is a game with no Caster vs. Martial disparity, then 1E, 2E and 3E have no Caster vs. Martial disparity. That's a useless definition.

[Miryafa]

EDIT: Also, Jedi count as gishes.

Definitely. SWRPG original and revised editions don't even allow you to go full-non-martial Jedi, at least not without gimping yourself.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Edit: So I suppose the point is, the biggest source of a caster-combat disparity is when the combat folks have no means of countering or fighting back against the caster's powers. If they can't do something to match or reduce the range, that's a big disadvantage. If they can't resist or ignore any of the attacks, that's another big drawback.

Aren't characters in Star Wars supposed to have ranged weapons?

Also, Jedi count as gishes.

If a game where fighter/magic-users exist is a game with no Caster vs. Martial disparity, then 1E, 2E and 3E have no Caster vs. Martial disparity. That's a useless definition.

Umm, what? Where did that come from? The point was that Star Wars is a setting where all casters are gishes, and that that's not a 'Caster-Martial Disparity', so much as, "A + B > A for all B > 0."

[Kaelik]

Actually, the Force Unleashed comment is stupid because he's actually whining about how low level characters have no defense against a high level character.

First of all, there are storm troopers that are immune to tk and lightning, you have to hit them with your sword to drop their shield.

Secondly, the entire premise of the game is that one level 12 character walks into a kobold warren and fights all of them. Of course no single one is supposed to be able to survive an attack, the premise is that you take damage from all the kobolds you are not attacking until you kill them all in order.