What's with the obsession with "High Level" D&D?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:05 pm

Krusk wrote:I assume when someone complains about the source material not supporting something, they mean "Peter Jacksons Lord ofthe Rings movies".

To that extent, i agree. High level dnd does not support aragorn, legolas, gimli or frodo.

Okay, give me any piece of fantasy fiction that has ever existed, up to and including myths, that supports high-level D&D storytelling but is not directly based off of a D&D setting.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:31 pm

Amber

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:32 pm

Also, a bunch of other stuff that Zelazny wrote.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:59 pm

Chamomile wrote:Okay, give me any piece of fantasy fiction that has ever existed, up to and including myths, that supports high-level D&D storytelling but is not directly based off of a D&D setting.

End series TLA, most super heroes, any fucking mythological pantheon, any fucking shonen?

Seriously the list is so long I'm dumbfounded at the question.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:20 pm

Chamomile wrote:Okay, give me any piece of fantasy fiction that has ever existed, up to and including myths, that supports high-level D&D storytelling but is not directly based off of a D&D setting.

Any creation myth...?
Dbz
Magic the gathering
Star wars
The similarion

Seriously are you sentient? This list i just threw out are some of the top media franchises of all time. If you havent encountered them before i dont even know how to respond....

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:32 pm

Malazan Book of the Fallen.
The sorcerers in Prince of Nothing are probably fairly highlevel as well. Certainly in the older timeline.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:33 pm

BearsAreBrown wrote:End series TLA,

No. Even Avatar-state Aang is incapable of trivial feats like teleportation, plane shifting, resurrection, or anything even remotely resembling breaking into the wish economy. Even if we assume that Aang's attacks avatar-level attacks are capable of devastating entire armies of regular benders the way a high-level character can chew through effectively endless hordes of level 5 opponents (which is possible), that still makes entering high-level the giant "I win" button at the end of the show. No one else even gets close to that level of power without very, very fleeting inflation of their power provided by Sozin's Comet and the like. Avatar seriously goes from levels 3-7 or 8, with Aang having a stupidly unbalanced power that can jack him up a half-dozen levels under certain circumstances, and there is only ever a single person in all of the world who can do that.

most super heroes,

We have had this discussion like a thousand times. Superman is the only super hero who has ever gotten higher than, like, level ten. Cyclops is not high-level. Wolverine is not high-level. Spider-Man is not high-level. Batman is not high-level. Captain America is not high-level.

any fucking mythological pantheon

You know what Thor and buddies big adventure was? They killed a bunch of frost giants. Do you know what the CR on a frost giant is? Nine.

any fucking shonen?

Do you know what that means? It's literally just any manga or anime marketed towards a certain age group. It's a demographic, not even a genre. Death Note is shonen. But let's talk about Dragonball/Z, since that's what you meant.

Goku does actually pick up a few high-level tricks like effectively at-will planar travel and the ability to destroy entire planets in the crossfire of his battles with assorted enemies. Nonetheless getting a wish granted still takes actual effort. He can't pull off the 12th level Wizard trick of squeezing as many wishes as he damn well pleases out of genies, nor can he pull off the 17th level Cleric trick of bringing people back to life pretty much at will, as many times as he wants, with no harmful side effects to the universe, nor can he prevent someone from being resurrected by the Dragon Balls by using any kind of Soul Bind equivalent. If Goku and company do fight their battles at high-level stakes (i.e. entire planets are at stake and that isn't even weird), even if they do show an unusual level of attachment to their home world and have no high-level utility abilities to speak of.

Dragonball, on the other hand, isn't even close. When an opponent who can destroy an entire city of regular folk is a big deal, that opponent is about 12th level.

Star wars

Are you joking? The most powerful Jedi abilities we ever see are the ability to jump high and kill large numbers of faceless extras. That is, like, level six. Even that is being generous, since a lot of people are figuring out how to fly at around that level.

Any creation myth

Alright, let me expand it to "any piece of fantasy fiction we might actually want to emulate," because no one plays a roleplaying game about how the Atum rose out of Nu, created the world, and then never did anything important ever again.

The similarion

Questionable. Armies of mortals are a legitimate threat to Morgoth, and Ungoliant, a significant threat to the strongest of the Valar, doesn't really have any powers besides "is a big freakin' spider" and "long range Darkness spell" until after she juices herself up on the Two Trees. Balors may have been cloned from Balrogs back in 1e, but they've seen significant power inflation since then, to the point where a wizard of Gandalf's capability (not more than ~5th level by 3.5e standards) was able to kill one in single combat.

Skipping a few that I'm not entirely familiar with, that mostly just leaves you with Dragonball Z (mostly) and, if we're going to be very generous, the Silmarillion. Granted, I haven't fully examined some of these, but only because the bulk of your examples were so laughable that I find it difficult to take seriously at all.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:00 pm

Vedic/Judastic/Christian mythologies. Sometimes a character turns into a bridge to span an ocean, other times the same character calls in an army of monkeys to siege a fortress. Sometimes planar battles between all the celestials; then between fiends and celestials. The invasion of a planet by fiendishly controlled forces.

Central/South American 'divine' revolution stories, involves protagonists killing each other and resurrecting each other with completely new, young, bodies; trick enemy gods into being killed, then not resurrect them. The Hellenic/Aryan "Titanomachy" story (CR 50~ Hecatoncheries; and 10-20th level Aryan deities vs Hellenic 'Titans' plus leaders).

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:04 pm

Chamomile wrote: Okay, give me any piece of fantasy fiction that has ever existed, up to and including myths, that supports high-level D&D storytelling but is not directly based off of a D&D setting.

I'll go for the hard mode and exclude myths, as well as any stories where characters are primarily artifact-powered and/or don't have consistent access to the abilities they can muster when the plot says so (otherwise I'll be forced to include half or more of modern fantasy series). So: quite a number of Clark Ashton Smith's stories with wizard protagonists. In fact, Maal Dweb is a textbook example of high-level DnD god wizard written decades before DnD got god wizards. Novels and stories about Elric of Melnibone. Glen Cook's Darkwar trilogy - in fact, most fantasy books by Glen Cook feature very powerful, world-shaping wizards, just in others they aren't the main characters. Malazan Book of the Fallen - "DBZ-style fantasy" is, perhaps, an exaggeration, but it still features lots of crazy shit. David Farland's Runelords series provide great examples of what high-level-appopriate fighters might look like in DnD (strength, speed, endurance, senses and charisma of a hundred normal men... literally).

Enough yet?

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:24 pm

Chamomile wrote: No. Even Avatar-state Aang is incapable of trivial feats like teleportation, plane shifting, resurrection,

Teleportation is ultimately a gimmick. You care about it in DnD because DnD doesn't really give you any comparable method of getting from one place to another rapidly. In settings like DCU, where every high-end character has, you know, superspeed, it is still useful, but not special. Plane shifting generally doesn't happen outside of DnD that often because most setting don't have that many planes (where people want to go). Resurrection is the shit, I agree, but so is various forms of cheating death common in fantasy.

And in general, that approach is dishonest, by counting benchmark of power from DnD as the only relevant ones. Even though DnD characters are incapable of feats like blowing up a city with a single attack, above-mentioned superspeed, or making people their loving slaves, or at the very least forced to jump through the hoops of system-breaking for them, even though in other settings they are absolutely trivial.

Chamomile wrote:or anything even remotely resembling breaking into the wish economy.

The wish economy is bullshit optimization experiment that most of TGD likes to wank on, but that has no relation to high-level DnD as usually imagined or played by, well, everyone else.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:28 pm

@TLA, see what FatR said.

@Super heroes, seriously? Your counter argument is the one non-super in DC and a bunch of weak Marvel guys? Martian Manhunter, Sentry, Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Green Lantern, Flash... go ahead, show me why a couple of these are wrong. Because the point is that even you admit that some superheros are high level characters.

@Myths, okay, so Thor isn't level 18. Is Zues? Satan? Anubis? Yahweh? American Gods who's names I don't know?

@Shonen, first off, you're a pedantic dick. Second off, Goku, Brolly, Buu, the Admirals and other end-game threats in One Piece, the arc threats in Naruto, the entire series of TTGL, blah blah blah.

Stop saying things like "XXX isn't high level because it's not a level 20 Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, Barbarian and Psion at the same time."

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:06 pm

creation myths. Not always christian. See Greek gods vs titans, or Eyptian mythology for stuff regulalrly emulated in DND.

Super Heroes - Sentry, Dr. Strange, Dr. Doom, Galactus, silver surfer, reed richards, hank pym, mephisto (rewrites in order to make everyone hate the comic book)

Star Wars - I was thinking EU, but the emperor does know how to create life as stated in the movies.

DBZ - They plane shift at will, blow up planets, and literally have a wish economy. The DM (audience) thought it was boring, and so broke the wish economy item (DM fiat "no") and ended it. This started the blackstar saga in GT. You picked one of the few examples where there actually is a wish economy, recognized as such in the series, to accuse of not having one. They regulalrly say "it doesn't matter, we can wish him back". Also the hyperbolic time chamber is a private demi-plane to do stuff with a different time speed than the normal plane.

No thoughts on MTG not being good enough source material?

More importantly, the wish economy is important for practical dnd play. Not high level concepts as described in DND. No, I haven't heard of fiction where someone binds an efreet and forces it to grant wishes. (outside of Disney's Aladdin and every other story involving an efreet. I this is what is required for high level concepts)

Since planeshift at will, private demiplanes with increased relative time, destruction of planets, and a working wish economy are not high level concepts in your mind, do you mind clarifying them for us?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:14 pm

Right, so in more detail:
Amber (second series especially)
To Die in Italbar
Lord of Light
Creatures of Light and Darkness

Star Trek TNG (Q, etc.)

Hellsing

the captain from Planetary

The Matrix

Good Omens

wizards from Discworld

Stargate

Andromeda (vedrens)

Incarnations of Immortality series (not the main characters, but others in that setting)

Various characters from Bleach

Marvel's Apocalypse, and various other comic book characters

K · Post by K » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:14 pm

Why are DnD-inspired settings left out of the comparisons?

I mean, I really like Final Fantasy and other clones like it. It seems like it would be fun to play in.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:15 am

I imagine he's referring to direct D&D derivatives like Forgotten Realms or whatever. Which is to an extent stupid or silly, because a lot of modern fantasy settings (eg, Earwa in Prince of Nothing, the Malazan planet, and the Wild Cards setting) literally started out as the author's RPG settings and later got transformed into "proper" series.

Ironically, though, not allowing examples from D&D settings is kind of a moot point, because most FR and Dragonlance novels rarely go beyond Conan level, even the ones supposedly starring highlevel characters like the shitty Salvatore books. Off the top of my head, Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale trilogy is like the only FR book that even semiaccurately manages to portray life as a level 10+ character.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:22 am

hogarth wrote: To be honest, I doubt most people care about it too much one way or the other. The only one around here who really gets excited by OVER 9000 play is Lago Paranoia, as far as I know.

I sincerely doubt that here, since I would think other posters are evidence that say otherwise, myself included.

Find it pretty dang awesome this thread is now providing examples of high level characters, I've been tempted to make a thread much like the one in my sig, on this site.

Also think that in this high level model, that there would be some toning down some of the higher end caster stuff. Such as perhaps probably wouldn't have casters shooting off the 2-5+ or so spells a round, among some of the more 16th+ stuff they can do. Also assume that Gods would likely be within the ranges of 16th-20th, or nowhere past 25th (imagine requiring a party to be at full strength and of at least 4 people or more, and be some heavy casualties).

Prior page, Asura's Wrath, Bayonetta and God of War 2 was mentioned, some more character specific examples in my sig (check link). Also, not entirely sure, but wasn't Disgaea kinda up there, least conceptually, riding meteors, or taking out entire Fleets.

Perhaps it can help the discussion to assign a level range to examples if applicable?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:57 pm

A lot of the examples don't fit well into a DnD paradigm. Look at Sam from Lord of Light: he has arbitrary control over electricity, which is sensitive and fine enough to shove energy beings into magnetic bottles unharmed, and potent enough to call down lightening and fly, he has a belt that makes him even better at what he does, he's arbitrarily good at tactics and hand-to-hand, and he gains the ability to not die when killed.

What level does that make him?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:08 pm

That's a high level mage with a very narrow constrain on flavour.

I personally like the idea of having powers available at "tiers"; as well has having them be separated into categories. So, all of the "travel" abilities go into one spot; "form" options into an other; the same for other very likey powers/effects in game such as: "life-force"; "information"; "obfuscation"; "protection"; "summons"; "attacks".

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:22 pm

Krusk wrote:Star Wars - I was thinking EU, but the emperor does know how to create life as stated in the movies.

I would like to point out that creating life is something that people do rather frequently in real life. Is there something special about the way Palpatine does it?

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:03 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Krusk wrote:Star Wars - I was thinking EU, but the emperor does know how to create life as stated in the movies.
I would like to point out that creating life is something that people do rather frequently in real life. Is there something special about the way Palpatine does it?

He force knocks her up. I don't even think she was aware of it, just suddenly pregnant.

Also can extend someone's life indefinitely.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:06 am

Krusk wrote:He force knocks her up. I don't even think she was aware of it, just suddenly pregnant.

I'm not sure why removing the sex from procreation would be something you would want to do... It does sound like a super something, though, I'll give you that much.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:51 pm

TLA still doesn't qualify as a high-level story even if we assume that Aang in full-on Avatar-state is a high-level character which, if you'd been paying attention, I conceded he arguably was, because Aang is one character and his high-level abilities are situational I Win buttons, not the standard of power for the series.

The Hulk as depicted in any of the movies or the TV show never really took on cosmic-scale threats. Mostly he fought with detachments of soldiers numbering no more than a hundred, with a few helicopters and tanks. I'm sure you can find one example of that one comic from 1969 where he punched the moon in half, but that isn't what people think of when they think of the Hulk.

Green Lantern? His standard trick is a giant fist. Flash? I'm not even sure what you're getting at with him. Scarlet Witch varies with the writer, and when she does have high-level powers they're used as plot points, not the standard for the stories told. Martian Manhunter I don't really know, but sure, and I had never even heard of Sentry. Neither Scarlet Witch nor Sentry are what people think of when you say "super heroes," and high-level powers aren't even necessarily what people think of when you say "Scarlet Witch" because she's spent more time as a low-level blaster than a high-level reality warper.

Dr. Doom? Hell no. What even makes you think he qualifies as a cosmic-level threat, besides occasional comic-wank that makes Aquaman a fair match for Galactus whenever the writers feel like it? Same deal with Reed Richards and Hank Pym, and if you plan on referring to particularly obscure guys like Sentry or Doctor Strange you should probably just bring them up to start with, because it really should come as no surprise that when you say super heroes, people think of Batman, Spider-Man, and the X-Men, because those are the most famous super heroes. The vast majority are not high-level, and the ones that are or can be are frequently and inexplicably depowered to much lower levels anyway. Superman totally can carry a high-level plot, but he spends most of his time pretending Lex Luthor's mid-level shenanigans qualify as a significant threat to him, presumably so that the rest of the Justice League won't get jealous.

I don't really see any reason why Zeus is of significantly higher level than Thor. Is there any particular reason why Typhon strikes you as being a vastly greater threat than, say, a CR 11 colossal monstrous spider? Satan turns into a snake and gets outwitted by cunning anti-heroes in medieval folklore. Anubis...I don't even know what you're getting at here, and his Wikipedia entry isn't at all helpful either. Abrahamic deities aren't the protagonists of their respective stories and are often totally unmatched in their power. That's kind of what sets them apart from other deities.

Nobody cares about the Star Wars EU, including most Star Wars fans. Palpatine claims he can create life in the movies, but there's no particular reason to believe him. Even if he can, that's not really a high-level trick the way blowing up a planet with your mind would be, and despite Vader's protestations, the Force isn't actually nearly that powerful, and the Death Star has severe limitations to what it can do. Besides which, individual planets have about as much importance to Star Wars as individual cities do to a standard D&D campaign.

DBZ probably does count as a high-level campaign, which I already said, by the time of the Frieza saga or so, just because of the ridiculous amounts of firepower being tossed around. That doesn't give them a functioning wish economy, though. The income of wishes is 1-3 per year and you can never wish for the same thing twice.

I don't really care about the plot behind M:tG (I didn't even know there was a plot behind M:tG back when I actually played it), and I mentioned that I'd left out a few examples because I wasn't familiar with them.

In a high-level D&D campaign, players wield absurdly immense levels of power, to the point where they can rewrite most or all of civilization as we know it basically at-will, not by virtue of armies or legal authority but because they personally command absurd levels of power. The protagonists, not supporting characters (i.e. Q) must be able to do this (even if they, like Goku and company, don't actually do so). If certain facets of reality are exempt from the PCs power to change anything and everything almost at-will (like, for example, the Nine Hells of Baator), it is because they have already been claimed by other, similarly absurdly overpowered entities, who prevent you from meddling in their domain.

Put shortly, it's not a high-level story unless the protagonist(s) are all high-level characters, which means they can accomplish goals relevant to all of known reality of any given universe by virtue of their own inherent abilities. If you're a diplomancer who can talk his way into ruling all of civilization given nothing more than the existence of a civilization that speaks his language, he's high-level. Some guy who ends up ruling all of civilization but would not likely be able to reclaim that position if he ever lost it is not high-level.

I'm honestly just not familiar with a lot of the stuff listed here, so maybe it is a lot more common than I've been aware.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:59 pm

Aryxbez wrote:
hogarth wrote:To be honest, I doubt most people care about it too much one way or the other. The only one around here who really gets excited by OVER 9000 play is Lago Paranoia, as far as I know.
I sincerely doubt that here, since I would think other posters are evidence that say otherwise, myself included.
[..]
Prior page, Asura's Wrath, Bayonetta and God of War 2 was mentioned, some more character specific examples in my sig (check link). Also, not entirely sure, but wasn't Disgaea kinda up there, least conceptually, riding meteors, or taking out entire Fleets.

As Chamomile notes above, games and TV shows where the heroes run around beating up mooks (even if they're MEGA-MOOKS!!!!!!) don't require high level D&D to simulate.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:12 pm

Personally I don't like "high-Level" characters. Though I'm not sure how true that is since "High-Level" characters has a rather obscure meaning. When I pressed Lago for what he actually meant by "high level" I didn't get a very satisfying answer. In fact I mentioned in that same thread that a lot of "high-level" plots he laid down just seem like "low level" plots with a lot of fantastic things thrown in to mask that it is really a glittered up "low-level" plot.

DBZ is an interesting case where they establish very early on (like right at the beginning) in the series (When Vegita and Nappa show up) that you're dealing with people who can blow up planets with ease. Yet the series, for its entirety, stays within the realm of battling largely for one planet all the time. The entire series consists of fighting this guy or that guy whose power level is amazing yet each and every person they fight just seems like the last one they fought. The Buu saga is the only one that really mixes it up a bit where Debura can turn people to stone and Buu can turn you into candy and scream his way into another dimension. My memory may be a bit hazy on it but nothing else happens that really impresses.

I think that this is the point though: most of the fans don't really like "high level" plots. Most people's favorite heroes are often the ones who need a lot of plot contrivances in order to compete with people who actually are high level. Take for example the Anime/Manga Berserk. Here you have a man with a big sword and one arm trying to kill an ex-human who has become what essentially amounts to God (reality Warping powers and everything).

In One Piece (another Anime Manga) you have Luffy fighting God Enelle. Luffy has the ability of being a good hand to hand fighter mixed with his ability to be a rubber man. He has to fight a guy who, along with his ability to be and use pure electricity, is clairvoyant to the point where if you bad mouth him within his domain he will smite you without actually being there. And can see seconds into the future.

I don't think I really need to point out how Lord of the Rings works to anybody.

Drizzt is a very popular character that takes on people and beings that are obviously far more powerful than him and no one bats an eye. Hell he has killed demons before but later on could not kill a single Orc in fancy armor.

Wolverine is among the best loved Marvel heroes and all he can do is heal fast and have claws. Batman is similar in popularity but his power is being a detective and ninja with gadgets.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:30 pm

You're right that just glowing and releasing energy blasts does not make you a high level wizard. I completely agree.

However, you do have plenty of examples there which aren't that. Usually, there isn't a lot of explanation about what rules they're playing by, but they are playing by some kind of rules. Q from Star Trek is probably the best example: you can tell all kinds of interesting stories about him, it's just that most of those stories don't also involve the regular cast.

Overall, the trick is that high level stories are all political. Sure, there's some actual blasting at the end, but all of the run up is figuring out who your opponent actually is, and then maneuvering so that you get the drop on them, instead of the other way around. Zelazny really is the best example I can think of for this, because he actually writes from the POV of those characters, instead of just writing low level characters who interact with the higher ups.

The Gaming Den

What's with the obsession with "High Level" D&D?

Re: What's with the obsession with "High Level" D&D?

Re: What's with the obsession with "High Level" D&D?