What's with the obsession with "High Level" D&D?

[Chamomile]

Nitpick: From the start of Dragonball to the end of the Frieza saga, there's a very clear and steady ascent in overall power capabilities in the original manga (where power levels are pretty much an actual "ha ha" Japanese in-joke). Vegeta and Nappa never blew up a planet in the manga, but can demonstrably blow up a city. Frieza can blow up a planet, but it's like the evil version of the spirit bomb, a big huge mega attack.

The rest of the series took place almost solely on earth, so while we were reassured that the villains were growing steadily and steadily more powerful, they were never allowed to actually, successfully demonstrate any of that power before the heroes could stop them.

Concerning the definition of high-level, the only useful distinction I can find is simply scale. The degree to which you've left behind mortal men, such that not only individual mortals but entire mortal civilizations have become pawns in your game against others with similarly deific levels of power.

EDIT: Also, Star Trek doesn't count as high-level just because Q pops in every now and again any more than the Arthurian mythos counts as high-level because it involves the infinitely powerful Judeochristian God.

[Lago PARANOIA]

And in general, that approach is dishonest, by counting benchmark of power from DnD as the only relevant ones. Even though DnD characters are incapable of feats like blowing up a city with a single attack, above-mentioned superspeed, or making people their loving slaves, or at the very least forced to jump through the hoops of system-breaking for them, even though in other settings they are absolutely trivial.

Chamomile, I'm tired of you No True Scotmanning this whole debate. Apparently, 'high level' to you only counts if it hits several D&D benchmarks and copies several D&D-specific tropes at the same time like needing a party full of high-level people for it to count.

So instead of bouncing from definition to definition, why don't you give us a list of 10 benchmarks that would mark someone transitioning from mid-level to high level. For bonus points, explain why this is a high-level thing and not a mid-level thing. They don't have to/have to not be be D&D-specific ones, but if you're only going to count D&D-specific ones then I'm going to say that you're not arguing in good faith.

Here's my list. Aside from plot-device one-shots like Aragorn's ghost army, I consider a setting to be high level if it has reasonable access to at least three of:
[*] Mass resurrection being, if not plentiful, then at least being reasonably available. Mass resurrection significantly changes the tone and politics of the setting.
[*] Being able to conjure large amounts of matter from nothing. If it's something general like water or stone you need to have larger amounts of it than if it's something specific like automobiles or guns.
[*] Having superspeed greater than the speed of sound. This is a real game-changer for obvious reasons.
[*] Being able to grab a, say 5,000-strong army from nothing. You can either grab existing mooks or create them yourself. The point is that without much effort on your party you can plop a bunch of mooks at once.
[*] Being able to grab or create a, say, a reasonably loyal 4-10 strong squad of named mid-level characters from nothing.
[*] A setting where even unnamed/one-shot characters are of medium power level. So something that has specific phlebtonium like X-Men before Decimation or Wonder Woman's Amazonverse or a setting where it's a 'just because' thing like One Piece or Souten no Ken.
[*] Being able to on your lonesome destroy a 5,000-strong army of mooks with little to no preparation time. Carefully crafted rituals or contingency plans do not count, mass fireballs do.
[*] Being able to survive many real world 'you're fucking fucked' scenarios (like falling into a volcano) as a general thing for characters without resorting to specific replicable phlebtonium or 'action hero invincibility'. So having a thousand bullets shot at you miss not killing you counts, but surviving a harpoon through the heart is.
[*] Without having to resort to a specific contrivance like kryptonite, human-sized characters can take on legendary named creatures like the Phoenix and especially kaiju monsters like Godzilla. While they're horde monsters.
[*] It's common for non-do-anything-magician (like in Shadowrun) protagonists and antagonists have a grab bag of unrelated superpowers. This also includes superpowers that have a broad use to them like electrical control or legendary monster shapeshifting.

[Chamomile]

In a high-level D&D campaign, players wield absurdly immense levels of power, to the point where they can rewrite most or all of civilization as we know it basically at-will, not by virtue of armies or legal authority but because they personally command absurd levels of power. The protagonists, not supporting characters (i.e. Q) must be able to do this (even if they, like Goku and company, don't actually do so). If certain facets of reality are exempt from the PCs power to change anything and everything almost at-will (like, for example, the Nine Hells of Baator), it is because they have already been claimed by other, similarly absurdly overpowered entities, who prevent you from meddling in their domain.

Put shortly, it's not a high-level story unless the protagonist(s) are all high-level characters, which means they can accomplish goals relevant to all of known reality of any given universe by virtue of their own inherent abilities. If you're a diplomancer who can talk his way into ruling all of civilization given nothing more than the existence of a civilization that speaks his language, he's high-level. Some guy who ends up ruling all of civilization but would not likely be able to reclaim that position if he ever lost it is not high-level.

[Lago PARANOIA]

In a high-level D&D campaign, players wield absurdly immense levels of power, to the point where they can rewrite most or all of civilization as we know it basically at-will, not by virtue of armies or legal authority but because they personally command absurd levels of power. The protagonists, not supporting characters (i.e. Q) must be able to do this (even if they, like Goku and company, don't actually do so). If certain facets of reality are exempt from the PCs power to change anything and everything almost at-will (like, for example, the Nine Hells of Baator), it is because they have already been claimed by other, similarly absurdly overpowered entities, who prevent you from meddling in their domain.

This is a terrible definition. D&D characters can rewrite most or all of civilization as we know it at will because they are unopposed. Superman and Magneto are just flat-out stronger than and can achieve more than the vast majority of D&D characters, but in their own settings they're at a detente/MAD with other characters because those characters can stand up to them.

Iron Man and Raven (animated version) and Grahf and pre-God Kefka and etc. would run roughshod over most D&D campaign settings if they were transplanted there and given free reign. But they don't in their own settings because of the aforementioned affect. And I find the idea demotion of a story setting from high-level to mid-level because of this effect downright laughable.

Put shortly, it's not a high-level story unless the protagonist(s) are all high-level characters, which means they can accomplish goals relevant to all of known reality of any given universe by virtue of their own inherent abilities. If you're a diplomancer who can talk his way into ruling all of civilization given nothing more than the existence of a civilization that speaks his language, he's high-level. Some guy who ends up ruling all of civilization but would not likely be able to reclaim that position if he ever lost it is not high-level.

This definition is even stupider than your previous one. Protagonist is a completely empty term in this context. It has no meaning aside from metafiction.

Or if that's too hard for you to grasp, WH40K has a bunch of crazy-go-nuts shit as a matter of course. However, there are also games set in the same goddamn universe where one of the biggest superpowers available to protagonists is 'has a good set of armor and a bolter'. Like Warp Cult or Rogue Trader. Does the WH40K setting (not story, setting) cease to be high level because you and your buddies are temporarily playing the role of an Imperial Guard deserters stranded on Catachan?

[tzor]

EDIT: Also, Star Trek doesn't count as high-level just because Q pops in every now and again any more than the Arthurian mythos counts as high-level because it involves the infinitely powerful Judeochristian God.

First and foremost, Star Trek should almost never be used because there has been a constant tradition of fucking up all exceptionally significantly powerful plot lines over time.

That said, the Q never really were high level. They posessed dimensional time travel and had the knowledge of altering the so called "constants" of the universe, but that's about it. None of the Q technologies were beyond that of the Enterprise, it just was trivial for the Q to do.

(It's hard to tell, but the Organians were probably the only good example of high level that the ST Universe ever had. They get some degree of history retconned but the original Organians were so hot to handle that they effectively got removed from ST History. Q played with the BORG, they would have eliminated them with a thought if they were annoying them.)

[Chamomile]

Firstly, Lago, what media actually fits all of those requirements? Superman isn't high-level, he cannot resurrect anyone, conjure matter from nothing, or summon up armies on short notice. Goku can't really do any of those either, in that while he can resurrect people via dragonballs, he can't do so indefinitely. It's actually supposed to be a very limited resource.

Superman can beat practically anything because he is arbitrarily strong, arbitrarily durable, arbitrarily fast, and his weakness is very setting specific. Technically that's a high-level concept by my definition, but it's not a very good one. Magneto is actually unlikely to do overwhelmingly well against any given wizard from around 5th level and up, simply because they don't actually cart a whole lot of metal around and they've got a few nifty tricks for defending themselves from projectile attacks anyway. Iron Man is going to lose to a save-or-suck castable by any court wizard before too long.

Now, believe it or not, I'm not too thoroughly familiar with Care Bears canon, but I'm going to guess that the civilizations of lesser beings are or could be their pawns. If someone with the Care Bears' powers but not their morality could effortlessly take over the world even if he was opposed by every normal, mortal government, that does in fact mean the Care Bears have high-level power.

EDIT: I guess you've forgot, Lago, but the discussion is about a dearth of high-level stories in the source material. A discussion about high-level settings would be something else entirely.

[hogarth]

Now, believe it or not, I'm not too thoroughly familiar with Care Bears canon [..]

Lago apparently regained his sanity and removed his references to the Care Bears and Jade Empire (neither of which has particularly "epic" protagonists).

[tzor]

This is a terrible definition. D&D characters can rewrite most or all of civilization as we know it at will because they are unopposed. Superman and Magneto are just flat-out stronger than and can achieve more than the vast majority of D&D characters, but in their own settings they're at a detente/MAD with other characters because those characters can stand up to them.

First and foremost almost all comic heroes of any significant power are gimped by poor writing because writing exceptionally high power is almost as mind numbingly impossible as writing high power campaign modules.

Superman has "Poltonium" on his side. When the plot needs it he has it. Superman has sort been a running joke for decades (including Asimov's famous article on "Man of Steel / Woman of Kleenex").

Magneto is a one trick pony, but man, what a trick. (If you want to have a trick, uising a fundamental force of the universe is the way to go.)

[hogarth]

(including Asimov's famous article on "Man of Steel / Woman of Kleenex")

Larry Niven, not Isaac Asimov.

[BearsAreBrown]

@tzor, nearly all fictional characters have a level of plotonium. And it doesn't refute Lago's point.

@Chamomile, he said high level characters are capable of at least three of those. Justice League can hit 5 or 6? DBZ cast can hit 4 or 5. One Piece can hit 3-4.

It's clear that you're just uninformed about superheros power levels if you think Magneto is a 5th level Wizard. He has, and I'm grabbing these all from Wikipedia, lifted a 60,000lb submarine out of the water, redirected asteroids, reduced his reaction time by 94%, created wormholes, manipulated individual photons, oh, and he's super-smart.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Firstly, Lago, what media actually fits all of those requirements? Superman isn't high-level, he cannot resurrect anyone, conjure matter from nothing, or summon up armies on short notice. Goku can't really do any of those either, in that while he can resurrect people via dragonballs, he can't do so indefinitely. It's actually supposed to be a very limited resource.

1.) As FatR and BearsAreBrown have warned you about this crap on the previous page, it's incredibly dishonest for you to dance between definitions like that without defining what you're doing. If you're doing this, cut it the fuck out. Of course, if your definition is 'a high level setting has to do everything on your list at once', this would not make your argument dishonest so much as incredibly retarded. Why?

2.) Very few created settings are going to do it all at once. Because a story has different goddamn requirements from a game. A game has to provide a bunch of options at once because someone might not like playing the characters of Green Lantern or Darkseid or Apocalypse specifically. But when we're doing Green Lantern or Darkseid or whatever stories mass resurrection never comes up because it's not in their idioms. But they do shit a lot more impressive than mass resurrection or super speed.

The reason why I did that list is because the common thread through all of that is that A.) things exist in that setting that can cause very large changes to the status quo that aren't available in the 'real world'. B.) they're reasonably accessible and replicable. This doesn't mean that they need to happen more than once, just that if it can it will. Demeter inventing Winter from whole scratch is replicable because there's no hint that such a feat is especially unusual, even though it's likely that it will never happen again.

A set of Large Possible Change and Change Being Reasonably Common is what is important. Green Lantern can't do a lot of shit I mentioned on my list. But he can theoretically cause everyone on the planet Earth to go extinct by hurling a large asteroid at it when no one is paying attention. That's a much bigger change to the status quo than is possible with D&D magic even though D&D magic has more ways to change the status quo.

Lago apparently regained his sanity and removed his references to the Care Bears and Jade Empire (neither of which has particularly "epic" protagonists).

No, hogarth, I changed my reference because I was making a point that 'protagonist power level' is irrelevant when talking about 'setting power level'. The average Care Bear character is stronger than a typical Jade Empire character, even the crazy ones who can do things like summon horse demons and turn people into stone. HOWEVER Jade Empire maxes out at a much higher power level than Care Bears does. Seriously, the plot of the game is that the Big Bad Evil Guy stole the powers of water creation, soul binding, and undeath from the rightful goddess and it's fucking things up. And not until the very end do you even achieve a similar power level. But the average Jade Empire character does not touch that.

I ended up changing it because I realized after posting that that you and Chamomile would be unable to see anything aside from the references in of themselves and ignore the underlying point.

Thanks for proving me right.

[Chamomile]

First off, some of those are idiotically out of the range of Magneto's actual abilities. Yeah, there was an arc where the real source of Spider-Man's powers was actually some kind of spirit animal magic, but anyone who tries to bring that up and claim that Spider-Man is a wizard is an idiot, because Spider-Man has a basic set of powers that people think of when they hear his name and magic spirit animals is not one of them. So, reaction times, wormholes, photonic manipulation? Don't count. The fact that he did them in one comic that one time does not mean that they are a part of what people mean when they say "Magneto" and does not mean that they are a part of what Marvel actually writes Magneto's capabilities as being.

The ability to sling large amounts of metal around doesn't actually protect you from color spray. Magneto is not that powerful.

And again, Lago, no one here was ever talking about high-level settings. The discussion has always been about a dearth of high-level stories in the source material.

[Lago PARANOIA]

And again, Lago, no one here was ever talking about high-level settings. The discussion has always been about a dearth of high-level stories in the source material.

When we're talking about improvisational roleplaying, the actual stories that happened are unimportant except for extrapolating what could happen. Because you won't be doing those exact same stories.

[ishy]

Nitpick: From the start of Dragonball to the end of the Frieza saga, there's a very clear and steady ascent in overall power capabilities in the original manga (where power levels are pretty much an actual "ha ha" Japanese in-joke). Vegeta and Nappa never blew up a planet in the manga, but can demonstrably blow up a city. Frieza can blow up a planet, but it's like the evil version of the spirit bomb, a big huge mega attack.

The rest of the series took place almost solely on earth, so while we were reassured that the villains were growing steadily and steadily more powerful, they were never allowed to actually, successfully demonstrate any of that power before the heroes could stop them.

In the anime at least Vegeta and Nappa did blow up a planet, and Vegeta launched an attack at Goku which was said would destroy the world if it actually hit and Vegeta actually created a pseudo moon. Not to mention that picolo at the time where he couldn't even beat radditz on his own did easily destroy the freaking moon.

Hell in dragonball, master roshi reads minds and destroyed the moon.

[fectin]

You know, that line of thought says that high-level DnD is not high level stories. By your definition, ("they can accomplish goals relevant to all of known reality of any given universe by virtue of their own inherent abilities.") there are no high level characters in DnD, which means that the whole discussion is irrelevant.

Or more simply, the ability to cast wish doesn't actually protect you from color spray. A 20th level wizard is not that powerful.

[Chamomile]

The death of Lolth is, presumably, relevant to all of reality. I should hope. Most editions of D&D have seen you killing her or someone on her scale at high-level.

20th level wizards have more tricks than just casting Wish.

[Lago PARANOIA]

20th level wizards have more tricks than just casting Wish.

Why are you refusing to recognize that games have to allow (or had, they're moving away from this) a broad palette of intra-class options so that people who didn't want to just shoot fireballs and/or summon dead critters would still be interested in playing the class? In other words, it's a quirk of the rules that stems from gameplay having a greater influence than story. But like I said, D&D is moving away from that because A.) people are finally starting to realize that D&D effects are priced by not how much it can change the status quo but how effective it is in a dungeon crawl (which is why Passwall is harder than raising the fucking dead) and B.) do-anything characters are boring as fuck.

I mean, shit, magicians and superscientists and pretty much everyone in Freedom City (Mutants and Masterminds) can do even more shit than D&D wizards and more easily, too. If D&D is high level, then M&M must be super-duper-TROOPER high level.

[tzor]

(including Asimov's famous article on "Man of Steel / Woman of Kleenex")

Larry Niven, not Isaac Asimov.

Ack! Brain Fart. Folks don't ever get old. Us 50 year olds make this mistake all the time.

[Chamomile]

I've never played M&M. But, uh, yeah, if M&M characters are, on average, more powerful than D&D equivalents, then yes, that would be a higher-level game. Pretty much by definition. What are you even talking about with intra-class ability diversity? Is there a point in there, or are you assuming I'm disagreeing with something I haven't even mentioned?

[tzor]

@tzor, nearly all fictional characters have a level of plotonium. And it doesn't refute Lago's point.

Not to the level of Superman. (Remember the original Man of Steel couldn't even fly.) All of his power expansions were a direct result of plotonium.

It's clear that you're just uninformed about superheros power levels if you think Magneto is a 5th level Wizard. He has, and I'm grabbing these all from Wikipedia, lifted a 60,000lb submarine out of the water, redirected asteroids, reduced his reaction time by 94%, created wormholes, manipulated individual photons, oh, and he's super-smart.

Magneto is still a one trick pony, although as I mentioned it is a real powerful trick. He controlls magnetism. You put him in a dark rubber room with "Rubber man" (the man made entirely out of rubber) and he's shit out of luck. Submarines are made with metal that reacts to magnetic fields. Asteriods are also made of the same metal. (Can he do that to an icy comet? Huh? Thought not.) Wormholes (and generally most SCI FI warp technology) are often magnetic field based and photons are an electro-magnetic wave.

Magneto still can't cast wish; cannot raise people from the dead; cannot steal anyone else's powers; cannot break the fourth wall (or the fifth dimension). He just has his one trick.

[Chamomile]

Oh, hang on, I get it now.

Lago, my arguments are not Tzor's. Do not quote me and then attack Tzor's arguments. We are different people and have different opinions.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot this one a bit back:

When we're talking about improvisational roleplaying, the actual stories that happened are unimportant except for extrapolating what could happen. Because you won't be doing those exact same stories.

You want all those exact same stories (and characters) to be possible, even if they won't happen exactly that way. If people want to play a high-level story, a lack of any high-level stories in the source material is, in fact, important, even if high-level settings do exist. The God of the Arthurian Mythos is entirely capable of at least three things off your list, but that doesn't make the Arthurian Mythos high-level, because the greatest achievements in the story that actually happens is killing a the equivalent to one of your lower CR dragons with no spells.

[Lago PARANOIA]

But, uh, yeah, if M&M characters are, on average, more powerful than D&D equivalents, then yes, that would be a higher-level game.

Well, guess what? It's not. You generally start out at PL 10. This makes you the sidekicks of the actual heroes of Freedom City (who are PL 12) who are across the board a degree weaker than the canonical JLA.

So what's going on here? Let me try to explain with the answer to your next question.

What are you even talking about with intra-class ability diversity? Is there a point in there, or are you assuming I'm disagreeing with something I haven't even mentioned?

First, the needs of a TTRPG game (as opposed to a fixed story) are driven by gameplay which will necessarily include a wide range of options. Because you don't know what will interest a particular player ahead of time.

Therefore, in systems that use the 'all powers are possible until the moment you define them' mechanic are extremely sketchy to extrapolate any kind of power level from breadth, especially if it's canon that some characters have a wider range of powers than others.

Secondly, even if we accept the premise that 'any power is available = all powers are available' (which since D&D material has increasingly moved away from this paradigm should tell you that it is an artifact of the rules) the other point is that while game theory generally tells us that the side with the most options wins, that's not necessarily the case. Raw power level, which I must note that you have been studiously ignoring, is important, too.

Green Lantern can't raise the dead or shapeshift or read minds, but he can flat-out murder practically everyone in Faerun without them even realizing what's going on. D&D's magic is versatile but the absolute power level isn't very high. There is no way out of the core or even expansion rulebooks in any of the games to level a 3-story tall brick house in one shot with a direct-damage effect. But even mid-level characters in other games and non-game stories can do that. It's much better to judge maximum effect than versatility for these games.

So by saying that D&D magic is an example of a high-power setting but Green Lantern is not, you're left with the absurd conclusion that casual nuking of a planet by a random dude is not enough to define a setting as high powered.

Thirdly, D&D magic is extremely poorly designed. I would not try to extrapolate anything from that for several reasons.
[*] D&D Magic is designed to be useful for player characters on a dungeon crawl. Hence why it's easier to get spells that will crush the minds of elder dragon than it is to beat up an army.
[*] D&D Magic is not even consistent from edition to edition or even month to month. And not just obvious things like 'what effects are available to me this month' but basic things like 'can fairly strong but mundane guy throwing rocks at me prevent me from ending the world'.
[*] Some of the more impressive things that can be done with D&D magic are outright recognized or widely felt to be exploits. Yes, by abusing the Epic Level Magic system (which can be done before 20th level, thanks, SKR you jackass) you can do anything. But even ardent fans of the game would be pissed off if you tried to use that as justification that D&D magic can do whatever the hell you feel like.


You get it? Are you enlightened yet? I hope that was enough evidence to convince you the crazier or more versatile stuff you D&D's magic in-game is not supposed to be a representation of what you should build stories off of. Holding it up as a definition of what high level is supposed to be is extremely sketchy, even if you pin down benchmarks, because it serves a game first--poorly designed, at that--and serves a story second.

So you continuing to wave the 20th level wizard in our face like it was some kind of trump card is stupid and tin-eared. Not only does it show the lack of ability to differentiate between a game and a story but it shows that you're not even aware that it's a poor story at best.

[Lago PARANOIA]

You want all those exact same stories (and characters) to be possible, even if they won't happen exactly that way.

Uh, no. You want the general feel and effect. Having the exact story be replicable is not only impossible but outright undesirable. The story of Yamato conjuring a miles-long and 500-foot high waterfall from nothing - as he casually did in Naruto - is not something that can be or should be replicated in another story. For one, it's a unique (in exact effect, not ability to change the plot) effect given to him because of scary genetic experimentation. For two, he does this because of focusing internal chakras and forming handseals. These may or may not be desirable elements to have in your unique game, unless the setting that you're playing is 'Narutoverse as close as possible'.

But the part where he constructed a huge waterfall out of nothing in the middle of a field of grass? That part is awesome. Even if we don't have the genetic engineering and ninjutsu themes, we want to put that in the game. And hell, since that part was so goddamned cool, maybe there are other things we want to plunder, too.

If people want to play a high-level story, a lack of any high-level stories in the source material is, in fact, important, even if high-level settings do exist.

It's only important if you're playing in that exact same setting with no changes before or during the timeframe in which you're creating it. If you're intentionally editing in changes or, God forbid, trying to create your own brand spanking new stories then high-level settings are fair game to plunder elements from and use as examples of how to make things work.

[hogarth]

Lago apparently regained his sanity and removed his references to the Care Bears and Jade Empire (neither of which has particularly "epic" protagonists).

No, hogarth, I changed my reference because I was making a point that 'protagonist power level' is irrelevant when talking about 'setting power level'.

It totally, totally does. Just about every pre-D&D fantasy story treats magic as a vaguely defined McGuffin that the bad guy uses, whereas the good guys are low-level schmucks who win by breaking the McGuffin. PCs just don't get ultra-powerful McGuffins (with fatal Achilles heels), and that's a good thing.

"Epic" is not shooting the exhaust hole of the Death Star. "Epic" is having your own Death Star. Or are you seriously claiming that shit like "Jade Empire" or "Willow" is your idea of a high level D&D story (in which Frank will laugh you off the face of the planet)?

Thanks for proving me right.

When all else fails, claim victory!

[fectin]

Willow is a fairly high level story. Bavmorda and whoever the other woman was seemed moderately potent.