For D&D, how many 'Condition' effects is too many? Too few?

[OgreBattle]

Pathfinder has :
Bleed
Blinded
Broken
Confused
Cowering
Dazed
Dazzled
Dead
Deafened
Disabled
Dying
Energy Drained Entangled
Exhausted
Fascinated
Fatigued
Flat-Footed
Frightened
Grappled
Helpless
Incorporeal
Invisible
Nauseated Panicked
Paralyzed
Petrified
Pinned
Prone
Shaken
Sickened
Stable
Staggered
Stunned
Unconscious


4e has:
slowed, immobilized, dazed, stunned, restrained, helpless, weakened, prone, blind, deafened, unconscious, dead

Did AD&D have a go-to list for this kind of thing? I don't remember.

But yeah, what's the sweet spot for you, and what are the factors that make it good? What are the hallmarks of good/bad design in doing conditions for a D&D system?

[Username17]

AD&D had conditions defined in the abilities that created them. Many of these definitions were... lacking. Considerable arguments ran as to whether things like hold person that said you couldn't move meant that your figure had to stay in the same place on the board but you could still fight and cast spells, or whether it meant that you were paralyzed and subject to the Sleeping Ogre rule. And of course, getting entangled by a Kua Toa Pincher Staff was totally different from being entangled by the spell of the same name or of touching a Stun Jelly.

I don't think that the Pathfinder list is too long. I would definitely change some of them out for different ones. Dazzled is a fucking stupid condition that only exists to stop people ranting herp derp about casting continual light on the eyes of their opponents, and could be way better handled with a generic Distracted condition. But I don't feel oppressed by the sheer size of the condition list. I do feel constrained by the shortness of the 4e condition list.

-Username17

[FatR]

I don't mind the number of condition in 3.X/3.P. I do mind that some of the impose minor penalties and those minor penalties are often different. I.e., shaken and sickened are almost identical to the point that you need to look carefully to realise that the former does not impose damage penalty, unlike the latter. Also, dazzled is bullcrap, and dazed/nauseated probably should be rolled into one "you cannot act because of pain/shock/irritation, but it is not as bad as stun" condition.

[Dean]

I think 25 or so (as opposed to Pathfinder's 34 there) is about ideal. Group similar effects into one and then group them together for more complicated effects. Keep individual statuses relevantly different and memorable or in some way intuitive and you're golden

[violence in the media]

I think more of them should be on a Fear-type scale. So you might have Dazzled ---> Fascinated ---> Blinded and then, like the Fear track, Dazzled + Dazzled = Fascinated.

[hogarth]

Also, dazzled is bullcrap[..]

"Dazzled" and "fascinated" can go die in a fire. Fascinated is useless because it's instantly broken by "any obvious threat", and 99% of everything in D&D is an obvious threat.

[Josh_Kablack]

4e has:
slowed, immobilized, dazed, stunned, restrained, helpless, weakened, prone, blind, deafened, unconscious, dead

4e PHB, page 277 lists:: Blinded, Dazed, Deafened, Dominated, Dying, Helpless, Immobilized, Marked, Petrified, Prone, Restrained, Slowed, Stunned, Surprised, Unconscious and Weakened and then after the big list mentions Insubstantial and taking ongoing damage - which really are condition effects. Additional conditions in the game but not listed on the list of conditions are Regenerating, Having Concealment, subject of a Hunter's Quarry type psuedo-mark and "Granting Combat Advantage" Then there is a whole collection of collections of additional conditions falling under the generic "penalized", "vulnerable: ___ X / resist ____ X", "Immune X" "granted a bonus" headings, which each have specific and nonstandardized rules unique to their collection.


Now there are a number of issues with why such an extensive list makes for a horrible game

• Many of the conditions are so minor that they might as well not exist (deafened, marked) especially in a game where things are tracked on a round-by-round duration
• Many of the conditions are essentially the same. Blinded and Prone are both conditions that make you grant Combat Advantage and suffer an attack penalty. Dying, Unconscious and Helpless are all different shades of the same effect. There are differences, but they are pretty small, and probably not worthy of players' attention.
• Conditions which are meaningfully different have names that are too similar. The difference between Immobile and Restrained is something that players will need to stop the game to look up
• The rules for the various collections of conditions are horrifyingly nonstandard and result in nothing but frustration if you try to play a leader in any group with a brand new player in it. "What's that bonus?" "+4" "No, not how much, what type? Dude, I need to know if it stacks with the bonus I'm granting everyone." "The chargen program just printed out +4." "Great, gimme the book and the actual name of the power" And then once the newbie finally gets that bonuses of the same type don't stack, things turn right around because penalties do stack and well, I stopped caring about what happens with vulnerabilities.
• There's no reason for Petrified to be a distinct entry on the PHB list. There are like 3-4 critters in the MM with a petrify effect and like zero PC abilities that cause it, and that can be handled by referencing other component conditions in the monster entries or in the MM glossary.

So, really it's not a matter of how many conditions, so much as how they are laid out and split up. If you make sure that

• conditions aren't too small to matter,
• don't overlap much,
• have names that are both descriptive and distinct
• and will actually show up in play

you can probably have a list of a couple dozen.

It also probably would help players to keep track of stuff if the game were designed to group similar conditions into progress tracks, such as 3e's Shaken < Frightened < Panicked in a consistent manner. If people see that the list is Slowed < Immobile < Restrained, then they will have an easier time remembering that Restrained is a worse form of Immobile and need to stop to reference the book less often.

[MGuy]

Nitpick: The differences between being unconcious, dying, and helpless are worth knowing if your game goes beyond "combat". Everyone knows what being unconscious is but it doesn't make you die (as Dying does) and you don't know what's going on around you (while being helpless might allow you to do). Dying requires different things to recover from while being Unconscious and Helpless require completely different things to recover from. Helplessness can be caused by several different things and may or may not include you being Unconscious. In fact while helplessness can apply to being Unconscious and Dying neither of those necessarily apply to being Helpless.

[Josh_Kablack]

Nitpick: The differences between being unconcious, dying, and helpless are worth knowing if your game goes beyond "combat".

Counterpoint: my post was in the context of 4e.

Seriously, in 4e every condition is tracked on a round-by-round (and sometimes within a round) duration, and inside that sort of framework it's usually not worth the bookkeeping to track the minor differences.

[Neurosis]

AD&D had conditions defined in the abilities that created them. Many of these definitions were... lacking. Considerable arguments ran as to whether things like hold person that said you couldn't move meant that your figure had to stay in the same place on the board but you could still fight and cast spells, or whether it meant that you were paralyzed and subject to the Sleeping Ogre rule. And of course, getting entangled by a Kua Toa Pincher Staff was totally different from being entangled by the spell of the same name or of touching a Stun Jelly.

Honestly I found this problem to exist in 3E/3.5E D&D too, to a degree.

[the_taken]

I once saw a condition called Checked in 3.x. I can not recall ever causing or getting that status condition.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Checked happens in windy weather -- I think it means you can't move against the wind.

[Josh_Kablack]

Wind effects, including Checked

Core spell which causes it

Note that the spell text does not include any mention of the status effect, so you have to cross reference with the DMG to see what the spell actually does. Also note that the lower-level Gust of Wind spells out the effect without using the status condition and that Freedom of Movement does not interact with the Checked condition.

[Doom]

A great number of conditions isn't a big deal but one thing that 4e messed up on was having a great number of conditions affecting a character at one time.

A cap of '3' seems as good a place to start; I often had higher level 4e battles where a half dozen effects/conditions/whatevers were affecting a creature at one time.

[ModelCitizen]

The only time I mind having a lot of conditions is when two of them do very nearly the same thing. Slowed vs Staggered, Restrained vs Entangled, Stunned vs Paralyzed, stuff like that.

Also, not exactly a status effect problem, but I really wish they'd come up with a less ambiguous game definition for "move." To Move in 3e means to change your terrain space but I can never tell whether the author is using the strict game definition or the common English definition. If my feet are stuck in an Entangle but I'm still allowed to swing a sword and shit, I have no idea if I'm considered "able to move."

[RadiantPhoenix]

These are my conditions for the maximum number of status conditions:

• What every status condition does should be easy to remember from the name
• Keeping track of what status conditions you have should be easy
• There should be a convenient list of status conditions somewhere that I can use to make sure I have contingency plans for all of them

[Koumei]

The only time I mind having a lot of conditions is when two of them do very nearly the same thing. Slowed vs Staggered, Restrained vs Entangled, Stunned vs Paralyzed, stuff like that.

In the first two cases, that's valid (while I know that Slowed has additional numeric penalties, the real serious effect is the same for them both: reduced to a partial action per turn). In the last one there's a very big difference, and that is the difference between "Losing the fight/no longer needing to participate - if you're the only person on your team and this has a duration of >1 round, you will soon be clubbed to death" and "Someone can pull your head off with a Full Round/Standard/Swift action, even if you have allies running about or it's only for 1 turn".

I really wish they'd come up with a less ambiguous game definition for "move."

This times ten. I *think* 3E added "Anchored" or something ("You cannot physically move from one square to another, but can otherwise act normally") in one of the later books (possibly in MM 4 or 5, as a way to give monsters some new weird debilitating-but-not-deadly effects) but I have no idea when it was actually introduced, nor if something already covered it, and whether that counts for certain "You must be able to move" abilities.

And more of abilities being loaded into condition tracks would be nice, though maybe that's just because roleplayers/autists like to file things into neat categories.

[Winnah]

The list can be condensed slightly by lumping effects that scale into neat little groups.

Fatigue>Exhaustion
Sickended>Nauseated
Shaken>Frightened>Panicked/Cowering
Grappling>Pinned/Held

It may save some time to simply reference 'Fear' than to look up 'Panicked' and have to reference 'Frightened' and 'Shaken' anyway.

So:

Fear
A character subject to a fear effect suffers a -2 to all d20 rolls (attacks, ability checks, saves, etc.). They are considered Shaken. A character suffering from a fear effect that is subject to an additional fear effect is treated as though they have been effected by the next stage of Fear; A shaken character becomes frightened and a frightended charaacter becomes panicked, see below.

Frightened, a more severe form of fear inflicts the same penalties as above and also requires that the character must flee from the souce of the fear, if aware of the source and able to flee, using their most convenient form of movement.

Panicked, an extreme form of fear, forces the character to drop what they are holding and flee in a random direction away from the source of the fear, if known, as well as any other potential dangers. They suffer the same fear penalties to D20 rolls. They may use spells or special abilities to effect an escape. If Unable to flee, they are considered to be Cowering.

Cowering is an extreme fear condition that is typically caused by a Panicked character being unable to flee. In addition to notmal fear penalties, the character may take no actions. They suffer a -2 to AC and lose their dexterity bonus to armour class.


While the above example does not conserve space, it is a lot simpler to reference.

[MGuy]

List of conditions in the game I'm currently working on:
Bleeding
Dead
Unconscious
Helpless
Stun -> Paralyzed
Pain -> Staggered
Fatigue -> Exhausted
Stress -> Despair
Fear -> Frightened
Confused -> Insane
Dazzled -> Blind
Deafened
Slowed -> Immobilized
On-Guard vs Off-Guard
Hidden
(Willing) Ally/Enemy/Noncombatant
Prone
Grappled -> Pinned/Bound
Broken -> Destroyed
Fascinated
Incorporeal
flammable/aflame

I don't count immunities, resistances, etc as conditions. Abilities with a -> means that one leads to the other. This is what I'm working with. I believe each condition is distinct enough from one to the other to warrant just this many. A lot of conditions have been rolled over into each other. For example being frozen solid, petrified, and similar things are considered stuns. Any necessary details not covered by Stun -> Paralyze would handled under the individual abilities. Even then it would only cover the end effect (upon reaching Paralyzed Condition). Being asleep or in a coma is being unconscious. The only difference between those two is how hard it is to wake up but that doesn't seem like being worth distinguishing between so I decided to leave it out. Though I'm still pre-alpha on my work I'm fairly sure this is the list I'm gonna be using.

[ModelCitizen]

I really like condition tracks as a way to have SoL-like effects without rocket tag. Actually I like two-level condition trees. Multiple advanced conditions can share a root condition. That way PCs are more likely to synergize without having to build "the fear-stacking party."

Shaken->

• Charmed
  Frightened
  Panicked
  Cowering
  Confused
  Suggestion (exceptional effect defined in spell text)

Sickened->

• Nauseated
  Exhausted
  Paralyzed

Slowed->

• Stunned
  Petrified

Restrained->

• Pinned

Effects are still typed for immunities and the like. A Shaken condition can be Shaken [Charm] or Shaken [Fear] but you don't need to match type to advance. If your buddy lands a Cause Fear to make a target Shaken you can still use Charm Person to advance it to Charmed. (If you did it in reverse order you'd apply Shaken and your buddy would advance it to Frightened.)

This would require each ability to define both a base condition and what it advances into, which would admittedly make power blocks a little more complex. An "Shaken" ability just applies Shaken and can't advance to anything. A "Shaken->Frightened" ability works like in Shaken in 3e. A "Frightened" ability applies Frightened straight away (and also applies Shaken, but that only matters if someone tries to stack another condition on top of it).

In the first two cases, that's valid (while I know that Slowed has additional numeric penalties, the real serious effect is the same for them both: reduced to a partial action per turn). In the last one there's a very big difference, and that is the difference between "Losing the fight/no longer needing to participate - if you're the only person on your team and this has a duration of >1 round, you will soon be clubbed to death" and "Someone can pull your head off with a Full Round/Standard/Swift action, even if you have allies running about or it's only for 1 turn".

Come to think of it you're right about Stunned vs Paralyzed. I intentionally ignored the Helpless thing but I forgot that Paralyzed also allows mental actions. I agree they're sufficiently different to be two things.[/b]

[Username17]

I really like condition tracks as a way to have SoL-like effects without rocket tag. Actually I like two-level condition trees. Multiple advanced conditions can share a root condition. That way PCs are more likely to synergize without having to build "the fear-stacking party."

This is a really good idea. But the tree should go both ways. In addition to there being a number of advanced conditions you can add to a basic condition, you should also be able to layer a specific advanced condition onto one of several different basic conditions. Because while it is better for the Enchanter, Barbarian, Necromancer, and Psion to all be able to layer various finishers onto the Shaken Root than it is for everyone to have to be a Fear Stacker or GTFO - it still sucks to tell someone that they can't play a Medusa Peltast or a an Assassin because you're a Shaken Root party so Petrify and Poison can GTFO.

So you're going to have some arbitrary number of roots. Off the top of my head, I'd suggest:

• Bloodied
• Distracted
• Entangled
• Shaken
• Sickened
• Slowed

These level 1 conditions are minor. Having them makes you -2 on some stuff. But more importantly, it opens up Level 2 and Level 3 conditions.

Then you have Level 2 conditions. Level 2 conditions are something you can still fight through, but which are severely debilitating (like Confused or Blinded) or which take you out of the fight temporarily (like Stunned or Pinned). Level 3 Conditions end combat, and differ in special effects and upon which root conditions could be in place before they open up as options.

-Username17

[ModelCitizen]

I agree that classes need to support multiple base conditions. I'm not sure I want the relationship to go both ways though. I'm worried about weird stuff like having to remember whether the root for ghoul paralysis is Sickened or Slowed. I expect a lot of monsters to have abilities that jump directly to an advanced condition, so I don't want to have to worry about specifying a root for ghoul paralysis that only comes up in corner cases.

Your medusa javelineer should still get a Shaken->Petrified option. I just think instead of actually advancing Shaken into Petrified, it should apply either a Shaken condition or a new Petrified condition with the standard root of Slowed. (I know that's a really minor technical difference and we're pretty much on the same page.)

For your assassin I assume Poison would be a type not a condition. It's fine that his poisoned darts are Sickened->Paralyzed [Poison], the necromancer's Ray of Exhaustion is Sickened->Exhausted [Necrotic], and the beguiler's Hideous Laughter is Sickened->ROFLing [Compulsion]. They all have Sickened effects, they can all be BFFs and make people sick together.

[MGuy]

Couldn't you, alternatively, make it so that inflicting status condition A makes it easier to inflict status condition B and C so you encourage spreading the conditions out so it doesn't have to be Condition A or nothing. Or you could make it so that once status condition X is inflicted there's no need to make it progress any further. Then make is so you can opt to do so, but only if the person who originally chooses to progress it further (a'la Grapple -> Pin).

[Josh_Kablack]

I really like condition tracks as a way to have SoL-like effects without rocket tag. Actually I like two-level condition trees. Multiple advanced conditions can share a root condition. That way PCs are more likely to synergize without having to build "the fear-stacking party."

This is a really good idea. But the tree should go both ways. In addition to there being a number of advanced conditions you can add to a basic condition, you should also be able to layer a specific advanced condition onto one of several different basic conditions.

Interesting but seem potentially very complicated, can I ask for a small proof-of-concept mockup of stacking statuses in this sort of many to many relationship?

[Username17]

I really like condition tracks as a way to have SoL-like effects without rocket tag. Actually I like two-level condition trees. Multiple advanced conditions can share a root condition. That way PCs are more likely to synergize without having to build "the fear-stacking party."

This is a really good idea. But the tree should go both ways. In addition to there being a number of advanced conditions you can add to a basic condition, you should also be able to layer a specific advanced condition onto one of several different basic conditions.

Interesting but seem potentially very complicated, can I ask for a small proof-of-concept mockup of stacking statuses in this sort of many to many relationship?

Sure. In order to whip out a proof of concept mock-up, we should procedurally generate these things, because that is fast. Let's say that you decided that your six basic conditions were going to be tied to the six basic stats:

• Fatigued happens when someone pops you in the Strength
• Slowed happens when someone pops you in the Dexterity
• Sickened happens when someone pops you in the Constitution
• Shaken happens when someone pops you in the Charisma
• Distracted happens when someone pops you in the Wisdom
• Confused happens when someone pops you in the Intelligence

OK, now each of these basic conditions has three secondary conditions that are each keyed to a Save, but each of the secondary conditions has two entrance points. That means that there are Nine Secondary Conditions: Three "Fort", Three "Ref", Three "Will".

• Exhausted (Fatigued or Slowed)
• Poisoned (Sickened or Confused)
• Pinned (Distracted or Shaken)
• Dazed (Fatigued or Distracted)
• Entangled (Slowed or Confused)
• Blinded (Shaken or Sickened)
• Insane (Distracted or Confused)
• Frightened (Fatigued or Shaken)
• Nauseated (Sickened or Slowed)

Now, you have finishing states, these finishing states end combat one way or the other:

• Dropped
• Asleep
• Paralyzed
• Petrified
• Panicked
• Charmed

Now, we have 21 conditions. We probably also want a category of temporary bullshit conditions like Prone and Off Balance. Let's say there are three of them. Then we remember the "bloodied" condition that kicks in at half hit points. When you bring someone to bloodied, you also get to hand out a basic condition based on what you hit them with to make it feel like a real milestone. That would get us to 25.

Obviously, you would probably want to swap some of these around, but for a two minute proof of concept on the back of a piece of paper I think it works well enough.

-Username17