Dominion 3 Strategy & Questions

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Post by Username17 »

How do you like the Marv?
Marverni are on the short list for "weakest race". They probably aren't the weakest race, because they aren't MA Agartha. But they are horrible. They have a poorly equipped army of essentially normal humans, making them for many purposes actually inferior to indies who happen to have useful equipment. You could make a pretty good argument that the Wolf Tribe is a stronger tribe than the Ambibate. They have bows. You get some pretty nice casters who get the full spectrum of Kailasa magic - but your barbarian troops aren't even monkey caliber. It's just... not good.
If I am understanding you correctly, all masters gain from all slaves everywhere on the battlefield ... 10 masters and 8 slaves end a +3 boost to all masters and distribute all fatigue among 18 mages ... correct?
Close. Fatigue only goes from masters to slaves. So in that example, each of the 10 masters would distribute their fatigue among 9 casters (themselves and the 8 slaves). Also, each of the slaves would get casting fatigue on each master's turn. So if your slaves were Sequani Stargazers, they would rack up 70 fatigue for encumbrance plus their share of 10 spells every turn. So you could expect to have your slaves start dying on turn two or three.
As another question is it a viable strategy to teleport deeply behind an enemy lines, build a lab, and then gate in a massive army?
Depends on what kind of response force the enemy has. But in general, yes. That is a thing that works sometimes.

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Post by Shatner »

One of the guys over on the Shrapnel forum wrote a real good guide on communions. I think I read it at least four times before I felt like I had a firm grasp of all the concepts involved.

I also wrote a little addition in another thread where I emphasized how much better 8+ communion slave communions function over less communions.
While this is mentioned in the guide, one thing I had to realize for myself was how an 8+ communion-slave communion is exponentially better than a 4-7 communion-slave communion. I have seen the difference and it is staggering; something which I want to emphasize here.


While most people would think the point of an 8+ communion is to get the masters a +3 in all their paths, the real advantage is that all the slaves are treated as though they have a +3 in all their paths for the purpose of determining their fatigue from the masters' castings.

For example, if you have 4x A1S1 masters spamming Thunder Strike (A3, evoc 4, 50 fatigue) and 8x A1S1 slaves, each slave is treated as having A4 for determining their fatigue from each of the masters' castings. Each master generates 25 fatigue (50/2 because their air magic is one level higher than is needed) which is divided evenly between the 8 slaves (so roughly 3 fatigue each). Also, each slave receives fatigue as though they had cast the spell (also 25 since they are each considered an A4), again divided by the number of slaves (once again, roughly 3 fatigue each). Therefore 4 masters spamming an expensive but potent air evocation will cause roughly (3+3)*4 = 24 fatigue per slave per round... which the slaves can endure for 8-9 rounds before they start suffering damage from fatigue > 200.

Now, assume you have the same scenario but only 2 masters and 7 slaves. Each master is an A3 generating the full 50 fatigue, which turns into roughly 7 fatigue given to each slave. Each slave also receives fatigue as though they had cast the spell getting them another 7 per slave per casting. That's (7+7)*2 = 28 fatigue per slave per round... which the slaves can endure for 7-8 rounds before they break 200 fatigue.

In the 8 slave example you had a 2-1 slave-to-master ratio which allowed for 4 heightened-damage Thunder Strikes (an A4 strike does more damage than an A3) per round for 8-9 rounds. In the 7 slave example allowed for 7-8 rounds of 2 lesser-damaging thunder strikes even though the communion had better than a 3-1 slave-to-master ratio.



With a little proper care, you can get a LOT of mileage out of a communion. Don't skimp on communion slaves if you don't have to. Also, giving them path boosts cast by one or more of the communion masters will get you another order of magnitude improvement in their performance. These are spells like power of the spheres, storm power, phoenix power, earth power (which also grants sweet, sweet reinvig-4) and strength of gaia (which also gives your slaves +4 strength, barkskin and regen... a fine suite of buffs).
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Post by Zinegata »

FrankTrollman wrote:
How do you like the Marv?
Marverni are on the short list for "weakest race". They probably aren't the weakest race, because they aren't MA Agartha. But they are horrible. They have a poorly equipped army of essentially normal humans, making them for many purposes actually inferior to indies who happen to have useful equipment. You could make a pretty good argument that the Wolf Tribe is a stronger tribe than the Ambibate. They have bows. You get some pretty nice casters who get the full spectrum of Kailasa magic - but your barbarian troops aren't even monkey caliber. It's just... not good.
The monkey troops are actually pretty good despite their deceptively bad stats. Markatas in particular are small and have good defense, so they can swarm other troops. The only real issue is the morale and lowish damage output.

Also, I really want to like Marveni because Druids have a nice path mix, but as Frank said their troops are crap and their good casters are too damn expensive. It's nice that you can recruit Druids anywhere, but they seriously cost as much as a regular Temple (400 gold!) so you probably can't afford to recruit more than 1 a turn. And while they can be a decent castling nation (cheap castles), they have crappy admin which prevents a significant cashflow increase.
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Post by Winnah »

le petit caporal wrote: How do you like the Marv? I find them difficult to survive, for the early game ...
I should have pointed out this was a CBM game. This instituted many changes, particularly to Boar Warriors. They become Recruit everywhere, have more HP, reinvigoration and a massive Berserk Bonus.

Marverni also gains a national spell called Stampede...Which is a battlefield-wide Haste effect. In addition to allowing your Infantry to close faster, tramplers and cavalry become a lot more effective.

The game I am playing, I went with a Dom 8, Master Lich/Demi Lich. Multiple Minor Blesses and a Major Death bless. The priority was a Death 9 caster over the bless effect, but even so, my Boar Warriors benefited from the Death Weapons effect and my sacred spellcasters enjoy a significant chance of inflicting afflictions.

My opening strategy relied on mass Boar Warriors, followed by their Sacred Boar summons, for a mass of hasted tramplers. Following that, my strategy became all about research to summon more powerful armies. Dragon Master is cheaper in CBM, so Cave Drakes, Ice Drakes and Wyvverns became fairly easy, if expensive to mass. My pretender was also capable of summoning a few undead commanders, such as Lamia Queens, Spectres and I have also picked up a Lich. I relied heavily on a pair of Revenants early in the game for remote site searching, and got lucky with my Death income.

My first serious opponent in the game was T'ien Ch'i, who prompty decimated my army with fast research (Wind Guide, Flaming Arrows). I got lucky in a couple of battles, relying on hasted tramplers to inflict a lot of damage. A pivotal battle saw 2 Druids take out their offensive army, with only a small screen of chaff units for defence and a lot of summoned Earth Elementals dealing the damage. That forced me to deplete their commanders Gem supply through multiple hit and run battles (so they could not buff their archers), prior to my lucky victory.
As for your set up, it seems like it would short circuit your slaves rather quickly.

All of those slaves benefited from power of the spheres, so had +1 to all magic paths. Those with Air, Nature or Earth recieved an additional +1 to those paths. They all benefited from the reinvigoration from Earthpower and the regeneration from Strength of Gaia.
Their was a few other units in the battle. A couple of Boar Warrior commanders casting bless, as well as a number of units.

My priority was to hit the enemy hard with a number of fatique lowing spells (sleep cloud, all the lightning effects) and morale lowing effects. That way I could force a fast victory with minimal casualties. It did not matter that the majority of the communion slaves would be unconscious in 4 or 5 turns, because I wanted the battle decided by then, one way or another. A drawn out battle would not have been in my favour, in this particular instance.

If I was on the defensive and wanted to have those communion slaves last a lot longer, I would probably would have made a Lamia Queen a Sabbath Master, in order to periodically cast Reinvigoration. However, that only guarantees that your Communion Slaves are active until turn 6 of the battle. After that, all bets are off.

I did not see any retreat orders. Is it viable to cast returning on your slaves ... leave them near dead on the battlefield (Fatigue 100+) and wait until someone hits them and watch them disappear?
One of my Druids was scripted to cast returning as his last scripted spell, the other was scripted to flee after he had cast 5 spells. Ritual of Returning is an ok spell for tough raiders that do not get hit very often. I have Ritual of Returning on a couple of Druids and I had put it on a Golem Raider...Which I later lost to a Disintergrate spell.

The spells Returning and Vortex of Returning are of situational use. They come in handy for certain tricks and tactics, but I have really only been using them to send a couple of my powerful, geared up commanders home after they fly or teleport into a battle. That way, I have them on call for deployment to battle, research or crafting every turn.
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Post by le petit caporal »

Frank, Zinegata, et al

You've been a big help re communions. Let see if I have this correct, and bear with me, I'm a math geek (i.e., the symbols).

Applied Fatigue:

Step 1: Split fatigue among the members:

In other words, fatigue is split among the participating masters (M) and slaves (S) using the following relation:

Individual fatigue = [Base Spell Fat.]/(∑ M + ∑ S)

e.g., for a 400 fatigue spell, in a communion using 1 master & 4 slaves, each slave and each master takes 400*(1/(1+4)) = 400*1/5 = 80 per communion member.

Step 2: Adjust for level of spell mastery:

Fatigue is adjusted for spell mastery in accordance with the following relationship:

[Base Fatigue]/ (1 + e). e being excess level above the minimum required to cast the spell.

Thus, if the spell is a D1 and the mage is a D1, the relation is 1/(1+0) …no adjustment to fatigue. However, for every level of mastery above the required level, fatigue is reduced. Thus if the same D1 spell was cast by a D4 mage the relation is 1/(1+3) = 25% of the base fatigue. This is the standard deal.

But it appears to work a bit differently with communions. For mages having the sufficient skills it appears to work the same, i.e., for each level above the minimum, there is a fatigue reduction). It is a bit trickier for the slaves that can’t get it done. For an underpowered slave … he pays and pays big.

The relation for a slave in this situation appears to be:

[Adjusted Individual Fatigue] * (1 + s); where s = the number levels short of the required level to cast the spell.

For example, for a slave that is 2 below the required level … it costs base * (1 + 2) = 3 times the fatigue!

Using the example communion above (a D4 master and 4 D0 slaves), if the spell is a D5 spell but the master is only a D4, it’s not such a problem, the communion based +2 boost (in all paths) gives him an effective D6. Thus, his fatigue is the diluted 80 divided by the mastery adjustment. 80/(1+1) = 40 fatigue. But the slaves ain’t gonna’ do to well out of this. If the slaves are all D0’s they all get a boost of +2 to D2, which has them fall short by 3. In other words, they take 4X the damage. In this particular case, that means 80 * 4 = 320 fatigue and they are dead on the spot. All four of them. I guess the story is … have lots of slaves in your communions. Lots ...

To insure that I am correct, if the same arrangement has instead 8 slaves, the base fatigue would have been about 44 each (400/9) and a boost of + 3 (eight slaves). So the D4 master is now an adjusted D7 master, which is two over the D5 minimum for the spell, thus fatigue is adjusted again to 1/(1+2)=1/3 of the masters portion of the fatigue (44). So, about 15, doable for awhile. But, the slaves also have a different calculus. They are all boosted from D0 to D3 (only one under the minimum). This still doubles their fatigue to 88, but at least they live, for one round. If one were to say use a death magic boosting spell on the master (or on any of the slaves?) the whole lot of slaves (and the master) are boosted to D4 for fatigue calculations. Which results in a slave fatigue of 44. Granted, a base of 400 is a really big spell.

I guess the moral is, case spells close to your slave max power not substantially above. Or boost your slaves first and then go. In a related matter, if you cast a spell like "summon earth power" on your master does that effect the +1 on all slaves ... including those with E0?the boost plus a boost of +3 can make a communion a real nasty customer. What is the next step ... +4 at 16 slaves?

Based on all of this … presuming it is correct, what happens when a dual path spell is cast (like say Bane Fire) and say the slaves only have one of the paths. For example, that is a D3F1 spell with a base fatigue of 30. Using the same 4 slave communion discussed above, with a D4 master (who is a F1 as well) and D0, F0 slaves. Does this mean we only consider the master as a D6 and the slaves all at D2 with a relative fatigue for the master at 1.5 or 2 (rounded up) and 12 each for the slaves. Or does the shortcoming in fire matter? (I know that in this case it does not matter because the boost on the slaves will get them to F2, but say that skill required was D3, F3 does the short coming in F matter?). Perhaps this is a moot point because there are no combat spells that require more than a level 2. But what happens?

Enough bizarre questions for now.

thanks guys
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Post by Orion »

Dual Path spells only check the first path for fatigue calculations. I'm pretty sure Summon Earthpower will not help E0 slaves, but not positive.
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Post by name_here »

Boosts are kind of funny.

They will only add to paths your mages actually have, but if you've got 2E and an effect that subtracts 2 from your earth points, you'll be displayed as not having any earth but getting summon earthpower will bump you to 1E.

This almost never matters, except for Chayots, who under the hood have 4 levels in 4 different paths and subtract 4 from three of them in each form.

Summon Earthpower hands out +4 re-invigoration, though, meaning each slave removes an extra four fatigue per turn. So even though it's rare to have slaves with Earth, you should get a casting of Summon Earthpower out anyhow.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

So, in an EA matchup between Marverni and Yomi, who's likely to win at various stages of the game? Neither starts with especially great archers or early-game battle mages, but once things advance a bit, both druids and the boss oni can become reasonably powerful. How much would a disparity in player skill be capable of changing things, assuming both players are at least vaguely competent in the first place?
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Post by Username17 »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:So, in an EA matchup between Marverni and Yomi, who's likely to win at various stages of the game?
Cripple fight!

Actually I would think it would go Yomi early, Marverni mid, Yomi late. Because Marverni has faster research, but Yomi has goblins with bows and impressive death magic.

However, it doesn't change the fact that both factions are among the weakest in the era. You could throw in Kailasa, Agartha, and Oceania and have the whole EA cripple brigade. Although Kailasa might be too good for that group, even though they are the weakest monkey faction.

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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Interesting. So even though they are both pretty terrible, the druids will get powerful fast enough to really be an advantage if used well.

Oh man, I hadn't even considered having the 2 worst water factions fight it out as well. Kailasa does feel a bit powerful, since I know you can turn their cap-only sacreds into indie-province taking thugs with fairly low end magic. Still, it would certainly add complexity.
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Post by koz »

What, apart from the fact that they're a cripple faction, can people say about EA Oceania? Or, in fact, any era's Oceania?
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Since your mages lose power out of water, remote spells may be your friend. You absolutely want to control the water, but that alone won't be enough to win the game.

I think you get sirens or something. These have a limited assassination type ability they can use in coastal provinces only.

I've found that your heavy armored infantry is decent against most indies. You can take land provinces without summoned backup. Of course, holding them versus other players is another story.
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Post by Username17 »

The Siren is indeed incredibly terrible, but in the EA you don't even get that. Her problem is that she is an assassin who can only attack in coastal territories and has a single morale-attacking death effect at the start of battle and if that fails, she enters an assassination fight as a bird woman with A1W1. She will usually lose to a basic commander until you have Alteration 6, and by that time you don't care if you can assassinate coastal indies because there aren't any left.

Anyway, EA Oceania. They have three casters: the Triton King, the Amber Clan Mage, and the Mermage. Of those, only the Mermage can leave the water without a Construction 4 Amulet of the Fish, and he loses magic power when he does. So your casters pretty much suck. To put the boot in, all your casters specialize in Water and Nature magic, which pretty much does nothing under water (ironically enough) without a lot of research. Water Strike is Evocation 4, people. The only thing you can do at all with early game combat magic is that Amber Clan Mages (and only Amber Clan Mages) can cast Geyser. And... that's it. W3N1 grows on (underwater) trees in Oceania, and they can at least search for Earth, and they start with a large Water and small Nature income - so they are crazy good at Clamming. But they have nothing to do with the clams, because none of their units have even Astral 1.

Then their actual army is overpriced and shitty. Seriously, they ask you to pay 11 gold and 9 resources for a guy with normal stats, a spear, a shield, a javelin, and a protection of 8. He's probably your best soldier! Your sacred heavy cavalry is build-anywhere, but it's too expensive and it can't leave the water.

As Oceania, I don't know what you're supposed to do. Hire lots of tritons over and over again in order to capture sea provinces at merely ruinous cost in lives (considering that the defenders are pretty much the same as your national troops), I guess. Then turtle under the waves and clam until your imprisoned Astral god can try to do something with your Pearl income or something. But there's nothing inherent about your society that will allow you to field even a mid game army or back up whatever your god is doing with anything anyone cares about.

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Post by Korwin »

Avoraciopoctules wrote: Oh man, I hadn't even considered having the 2 worst water factions fight it out as well.
Huh, surely you wanted to write worst water nation. Right?
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Post by Username17 »

Well, Early Era also has R'lyeh, and EA R'lyeh is the second worst water faction.

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Post by fectin »

What's terrible about EA R'lyeh? (ignorance, not disagreement)
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Post by name_here »

IIRC, they have stuff that is slightly shittier versions of other water nation stuff plus a shitload of reasonable underwater-only stuff. Their Aboleth mages can cast really impressively, but it takes an amulet of the fish to get them onto the surface and their mindblast aboleth troops can't go on the surface at all.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Agartha has amphibious soldiers. They aren't very good. That's why I think it can be a contender for "worst water nation". The only problem is if I want to force it into that role, I'll have to give Agartha a predefined start location on an island.
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Post by Username17 »

fectin wrote:What's terrible about EA R'lyeh? (ignorance, not disagreement)
On first blush, R'lyeh is much better than Oceania. It is on final reflection as well. R'lyeh has troops that range from "extremely shitty" to "pretty good", so if you stick to the latter you can do OK. You get garbage freespawn that is pretty nice to have around sometimes, and your casters are good enough to break into clamming from Construction 4 and full of powerful astral mages.

But you have the same "only one mage can leave the water without an amulet of the fish and he sucks" problem as Oceania. And worse: you don't actually make Air Mages at all, so natively you can't even make amulets of the Fish. And your water-only troops can't leave the water under any circumstances. And your serious badass Mind Lord (who is also fairly overpriced) is also a fucking fish and doesn't have any good slots. He might have Earth or Death, but he can't even use Boots or Staves, and his Water power is severely curtailed by a lack of ability to wear a cloak.

Unlike Oceania, you can leave the sea early. And you do have an early expansion. But you don't have an early unstoppable army or anything. And your late game is still basically garbage. Mind Lords are overpriced and you can't get them to use the equipment they'd need in order to effectively advance your goals in the late game. Your high end troops can't leave the water so there's no point in ever using them.

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Post by Orion »

EA Rlyeh is head and shoulders above EA Oceania for a couple of reasons. Atlanteans are a slightly better infantry chassis than mermen, and they have recruitable tramplers that are decent at clearing indies. Their starting army is also 50% amphibious so they can support an awake pretenders push inland, or just end up with fewer aquatic troops sitting around useless eating your gold. But just as with Oceania, their mages are pretty sad.

The Slave Mage can clam like a mermage but comes with guaranteed Astral, which means you can get a more diverse gem income and have some hope of building up to some kind of lategame, but you're still spending 180 gold for a non-sacred mage who researches for 5 points and if you bring mages to a topside battle they'll mostly be W1S1N1 that require a communion to do anything good. Your other mages are Aboleths.

Both aboleths are big Water/Astral mages with tons of HP, acceptable cost for their paths, and weird special attacks. They'd be pretty boss if it weren't for three crippling problems. First off, they're aquatic-only. If you want to deploy them on land, you need fish amulets, at 10 gems each. If you keep them underwater, they can research, but their water paths are not going to do anything good early on. Second, although water and astral are both great paths to go deep into, there's no real spell or items synergy between them. Finally, they can't use items. They get two miscellaneous slots each, and one of those is filled with that fish amulet if they're on combat deployment. That makes their high paths deceptive. Few nations can recruit a guaranteed S3 every turn, but several can recruit guaranteed S2s and forge starshine caps. Being able to recruit W4 is pretty unique, but several nations can recruit a W3 and slap a robe on them. Some of your Aboleths will get D1, but you can't just buy a skull staff to bootstrap death. All in all, you achievable magic diversity is much less than it seems.
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Post by Kaelik »

I like how Orion and Frank directly contradict each other on Rylegh's ability to go on land.
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Post by Shiritai »

Kaelik wrote:I like how Orion and Frank directly contradict each other on Rylegh's ability to go on land.
Frank Trollman wrote:Unlike Oceania, you can leave the sea early. And you do have an early expansion. But you don't have an early unstoppable army or anything. And your late game is still basically garbage. Mind Lords are overpriced and you can't get them to use the equipment they'd need in order to effectively advance your goals in the late game. Your high end troops can't leave the water so there's no point in ever using them.
Orion wrote:EA Rlyeh is head and shoulders above EA Oceania for a couple of reasons. Atlanteans are a slightly better infantry chassis than mermen, and they have recruitable tramplers that are decent at clearing indies. Their starting army is also 50% amphibious so they can support an awake pretenders push inland, or just end up with fewer aquatic troops sitting around useless eating your gold. But just as with Oceania, their mages are pretty sad.
I see no contradiction at all. R'lyeh's land troops are decent-ish, but their land mages are horrible.
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Post by Kaelik »

Shiritai wrote:I see no contradiction at all. R'lyeh's land troops are decent-ish, but their land mages are horrible.
Frank wrote:And your water-only troops can't leave the water under any circumstances.
This statement without any mention of the existence of amphibious troops seems to imply that there are none. After all, it is tautologically true that water only troops can't leave the water, so that's not a distinction between Oceana and R'lyeh. The only reason to make a distinction is one of them has non water only troops, and the other has only water only troops.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by name_here »

See, the reason to specify that is that land-only troops can enter the water with the aid of magic items or a certain global. Water-only mages can leave the sea with a specific magic item called an amulet of the fish. Water-only troops are fucking stuck.

R'leyh has amphibious atlanteans who are pretty decent, and they share semi-amphibious mermen who are shitty enough to be basically useless above water with Oceania.
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Post by koz »

Looking for some help with EA Pan. Mostly, I'd like to validate my understandings of the nation as best as I can.

First, my understandings.

- I shit nature mages, so I should use all the cool summons nature gives me, like Lamias, Vine Ogres, Lumber Dorks.
- My centaurs are awesome, but I can't get too many of them.
- I live in Turmoil dominion, even though my troops aren't heavily armoured. This means I also take Luck, Sloth and Growth.
- I want a blood economy for Blood Stones.
- My pretender should have Blood, Nature and Death (but no more than 2 of the last of these)
- My pretender should be the Maenad-making cow.
- My early research target is construction, followed by conjuration and alteration.

My questions:

- Pretender aside, how the fuck do I even get a blood economy going? My hunters are seriously 350g, and only half of them even get blood slaves reliably.
- Should I bother trying to SC my pretender, or should I instead go for a different approach?
- What the fuck is my lategame?
- If I wanna diversify, what should I aim for more than anything?
- How do I not die hard to anything with a missile weapon?

Any and all help would be appreciated.

As an aside: I keep seeing guides by a guy named Baalz. Are they any good?
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