Oops my mistake. [DriveThruRpg]

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:46 pm

Well, I get DriveThruRpg's newsletter, I usually don't read them except occasionally. But today I got an apology letter from DriveThru about last weeks newsletter. It said it was racially insensitive. (It was, also I am pretty sure the author of the article read TV Tropes). So here it is:

Archetype of the Week - the Noble Savage

It's been a while since we last visited the stack of Archetypes from the great folks at Hex Games, so let's throw one at you this week -

Happy d20The noble savage is a character from a primitive culture who is uncorrupted by the prejudices and quirks of "civilized" society. As a result, the noble savage is seen as embodying a high level of spiritual enlightenment despite his barbaric nature. His simple, straightforward way of looking at the world allows him to point out the irrationality of many of modern society's most treasured rituals and beliefs.

A variation on the noble savage theme is the "Magical Negro" archetype, which includes characters like Uncle Remus, Bagger Vance, and numerous Morgan Freeman characters. Although the Magical Negro is generally less overtly primitive than the noble savage, the core concept of a character who is wise despite his otherness is very similar.

A Word of Warning

Aliens and made-up fantasy barbarian tribes are one thing, but this archetype can easily become an offensive stereotype when real-world cultures come into play. In fact, some people find the archetype itself offensive. Therefore, if you’re going to use this archetype for a member of a real ethnic group, please approach the character and the culture with some maturity and tact.

Likely Stories

The noble savage most commonly appears in historical and fantasy stories, westerns, and science fiction stories featuring alien races.

The Name Game

The noble savage's name will reflect his culture. In most cases, this means that the character's name is either a completely nonsensical, alien-sounding collection of syllables or a translation of the meaning of the character's real name. These translations often describe the character in some way, often by evoking animals or natural phenomena.

The Numbers

Because noble savage typically live much harder lives than other characters, they tend to have above-average Body Numbers. Brain and Nerve can fall anywhere in the usual range, but language barriers, cultural differences, and the character's unfamiliarity with mainstream society often cause the character to experience difficulties interacting with other people and can make him seem simple or dull. The easiest way to handle these societal differences it to require the character to take an appropriate Weakness or assign penalties to rolls involving modern society.

Suggested Jobs: Aborigine, Amazon, Archer, Barbarian, Berserker, Brave, Bushman, Cannibal, Chauffeur, Chief, Gaul, Gladiator, Guide, Harpooner, Hun, Hunter, Indian, Manservant, Medicine Man, Mountain Man, Nomad, Pict, Pilot, Pirate, Porter, Raider, Sailor, Sasquatch, Savage, Scout, Shaman, Sherpa, Sidekick, Slave, Sorcerer, Talking Gorilla, Tribesman, Vandal, Viking, Warrior, Wildman, Witch Doctor, Wookie

Suggested Gimmicks: At One With Nature, Battle Frenzy, Born In The Saddle, Danger Sense, Fearless, Forest Ninja, Hard To Kill, Horse Whisperer, Keen Senses, Lightning Reflexes, Lord of the Apes, Mighty Thews, Powerful Kung Fu, Survivor, Tough As Leather, Unerring Direction Sense

Suggested Weaknesses: Alcoholic, Battle Scars, Big and Dumb, Code of Honor, Savage, Social Stigma, Sticks Out Like A Sore Thumb, Stranger In A Strange Land, Superstitious, Underestimated, Uneducated

Suggested Skills: Ambush, Animal Lore, Archery, Axe, Climbing, Contacts, Dancing, Dodge, Drinking, Fishing, Foraging, Healing, Herbalism, Horseback Riding, Hunting, Intimidation, Martial Arts, Mythology, Sailing, Spear, Stealth, Swordsmanship, Tracking, Wilderness Survival, Wrestling

WWPHITM? Andre The Giant, Halle Berry, Moon Bloodgood, Don Cheadle, Wilt Chamberlain, Rae Dawn Chong, Iron Eyes Cody, Sybil Danning, Rosario Dawson, Johnny Depp, Michael Dorn, Graham Greene, Rutger Hauer, Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, Grace Jones, Vinnie Jones, Val Kilmer, Keira Knightley, Sonny Landham, Lucy Lawless, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Mako, Russell Means, Mr. T, Miles O'Keeffe, Lou Diamond Phillips, Tonya Roberts, Mickey Roarke, Arnold Schwartzeneggar, Jay Silverheels, Stellan Skarsgard, Ringo Starr, Wes Studi, Gina Torres, Danny Trejo, Jesse "The Body" Ventura, Johnny Weissmuller

Tag Line: "He is very fortunate to have such a woman looking after his weapon."--The Groosalugg, Angel

Tools of the Trade: The noble savage's most important possession will probably his weapon, though medicine men and other magic users will also carry an assortment of holy or mystical items.

Where You'll Find Him: With his tribe. If for some reason the noble savage has been separated from his tribe, he can usually be found alone in the wilderness. If for some reason he finds himself in a city, he will typically stay close to whoever brought him there, at least initially.

Social Circle: His tribe. If the character has lost his tribe, he will most likely spend his time with a small circle of companions who have gained his trust.

Sample Character

George of the Jungle

Body: 15

Brain: 8

Nerve: 12

Job: Ape Man (12)

Gimmick: Animal Allies (13)

Weakness: Watch Out For That Tree! (13)

Skills: Vine Swinging +3; Feats of Strength +2; Climbing +1

WWPHITM? Brendan Frasier

Dumb Fact: Has an ape friend named Ape.

Tag Line: "Sometime George smash into tree.'

HP: 15

YY: 3

Inspirational Materials

Books & Comics: Conan series by Robert E. Howard, DragonLance series by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hikckman (Goldmoon, Riverwind, the Kagonesti), The Epic of Gilgamesh (Enkidu), Leatherstocking Tales by James Fenimore Cooper, Moby Dick by Herman Melville (Queequeg), Tarzan series by Edgar Rice Burroughs, Turok

Movies & TV: Angel (The Grooosalugg), Avatar (The Na'vi), Brotherhood of the Wolf (Mani), Dances With Wolves (the entire Lakota tribe), King Arthur (2004) (the Woads), The Lone Ranger (Tonto), Star Trek (Klingons), Star Wars (Chewbacca), Superfriends (Apache Chief)

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:51 pm

The noble savage is an archetype that comes from romantic primitivism, the idea that humans are naturally good, virtuous, and just but the structures of civilization have corrupted us and cast us down from our former perfection.

It only works if you start from the premise that civilization is evil and corrupting and that humans would naturally live in a utopian harmony with each other and their environment if they weren't constrained by the ultimately brutal rules and prejudices of civilized society.

It isn't racism so much as a naive idealization of the hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

Of course, it's a bunch of bullshit. And it was discarded in the late 19th century and generally replaced when even worse racism.

The noble savage archetype exists in fantasy fiction already, though. We just call them forest elves. In many cases they're guys in live in harmony with nature and are explicitly better than you in every single way. They're sort of a staple of the genre.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:21 am

Um. Hyzmarca I think you missed the genuinely offensive bit.

Leress wrote:
A variation on the noble savage theme is the "Magical Negro" archetype, which includes characters like Uncle Remus, Bagger Vance, and numerous Morgan Freeman characters. Although the Magical Negro is generally less overtly primitive than the noble savage, the core concept of a character who is wise despite his otherness is very similar.

People can make their incredibly lame and unconvincing TV Tropes excuses. But "Magical Negro" is a fairly offensive term in it's own right and one that in recent times has become even more offensive and is almost exclusively used by total racist freak out Tea Party members that pretty much exclusively use it as a dog whistle alternative to calling Obama a Stupid [EDITED].

Hell I'm not even sure Magical Negro even existed before it saw use as a substitute racist pejorative in crazy south will rise again Tea Party circles. Certainly they popularized it through their use of it even if they didn't create it and THAT on it's own makes it fucking offensive. In fact it makes the article in question not just racially insensitive but also politically insensitive.

edit: Oh yeah, and also everything anyone might ever say in defense about the term "Magical Negro", while rather stupid already, is pretty much automatically undermined once you bring in the context of mentioning the term as a type of "savage barbarian".

sake · Post by **sake** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:47 am

Yeah, I really don't see a connection between the two overused character archetypes and seemed rather fucking weird in the article.

PhoneLobster wrote: Hell I'm not even sure Magical Negro even existed before it saw use as a substitute racist pejorative in crazy south will rise again Tea Party circles. Certainly they popularized it through their use of it even if they didn't create it and THAT on it's own makes it fucking offensive. In fact it makes the article in question not just racially insensitive but also politically insensitive

The first time I ever saw the trope identified and mentioned by name was way back in 1999 on a The Man Show sketch. I would suspect it was a hollywood in-joke name for that particular type of role for quite a while before that.

So what is a more politically correct name for it then? Because TVTropes bullshit aside, it is a extremely common character cliche that persists to this day.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:16 am

Magical Negroes, huh? I'll admit I'm not terribly familiar with too many examples of that. But reading up on TVTropes, that also doesn't even sound like a Noble Savage. They sometimes overlap, but Morgan Freeman's examples...never seem to. What comes to mind a lot more readily is the way the British liked to portray Indians back in the imperial days, which, unfortunately, I don't think has a TVTropes article.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:07 am

Reading up on TV tropes, if a sagely character ever happens with someone who isn't a minority, it is an inversion... not counter-evidence that this isn't even a real 'thing'. I say it's only a thing because someone (purportedly Spike Lee) gave it a name to start diving characters up by race.

*sigh*

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:21 am

erik wrote:Reading up on TV tropes, if a sagely character ever happens with someone who isn't a minority, it is an inversion... not counter-evidence that this isn't even a real 'thing'. I say it's only a thing because someone (purportedly Spike Lee) gave it a name to start diving characters up by race.

*sigh*

The Magic Negroe that Lee railed against is an actual problem not because the wise mentor character is bad but because there is an unfortunate tendency to cast blacks as supporting characters rather than leads.

And then there is the Uncle Tom problem. The original Uncle Tom was a tragic martyr figure created to show the world just how evil slavery was, but there is an unfortunate tendency to write unoffensive and subservient black characters in stories that do not need them, where the magical negro should be kicking ass.

Instead of being the badass wise mentor, your magical negro tends to come off as the content manservant of the protagonist who helps him out and takes all of his shit despite being superior in pretty much every way. And that's what Spike Lee was railing against.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:49 am

Jackie Chan is a Magical Negro in Karate Kid, while White Castle is a nice inversion where the Uncle Tom becomes the lead.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:57 am

It seems like people are getting a little carried away with fucking TV Tropes bullshit at the complete neglect of any fucking relevance whatsoever to anything.

I should say I'm surprised, but that's TVTropes wankery for you.

Since it's best to head this sort of thing off before it gets worse, oh so much worse...

I'm not overly fond of this thread topic or anything, there isn't much more to do than look and go "They really said that? Those dumb asses." but some attempt to bring what you are saying back to ANY relevance to the topic, or even anything outside of TV Tropes might be kinda nice.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:18 am

hyzmarca wrote: The Magic Negroe that Lee railed against is an actual problem not because the wise mentor character is bad but because there is an unfortunate tendency to cast blacks as supporting characters rather than leads.

It's not that unfortunate since black actors and audiences are a minority, and you'd expect that minority lead characters being less common to be reflected. It would be weird if this wasn't the case. There's plenty of wise mentors who aren't minorities as well.

I dunno. Perhaps it was a bigger problem 20+ years ago. Right now, I don't think that complaint and terminology holds nearly as much relevance.

[edit:] Also, back to the original post. They really said that? What dumbasses.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:21 am

@PL: Oh, as opposed to your pinning the whole thing on Tea Party activists and trying to say that it was thus more offensive politically than socially? I'd gladly rather get carried away in a TVTropes discussion.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:14 am

I believe it was the reference to the "magical negro" archetype that is considered racially insensitive, though really one could, and should, call it "magical exotic" since the same trope covers little old asian men who are powerful monks and such.

edit: er... not so much ninja'd as I was too dumb to refresh the page.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:54 am

It's been pointed out that the entire plot of "Dances with Smurfs" "Avatar" was an example of "The Mighty Whitey".

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:27 am

God dammit. Mr. Miyagi is not a magic negro. Magic negroes are 1. magic and 2. negroes. Bagger Vance is a magic negro. John Coffey from The Green Mile is a magic negro. Mr. Miyagi is a regular mentor character.

The magic negro is a Black character who has magic fucking powers (hence "magic") and still "knows his place" and maintains a subservient role to White protagonists (hence "negro" rather than "Black"). Talking about how you might want to include magic negroes is offensive, because the magic negro archetype is offensive.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:35 am

What about Lu-tze in Discworld. He is 1. magical, and 2. not negro, but a little old (implied to be) asian man. He otherwise seems to fit the trope. I'm not saying magical negroes aren't racially insensitive, I'm just saying the trope stretches way beyond "magical types what are brown colored"

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:17 am

I'd argue that Hanuman qualifies as a magical sycophantic other, at least to whatever degree one considers Rama to be more human than him. Honestly, Sun Wukong qualifies too, with the additional conceit of the civilizing nature of the protagonist restraining the objectively more powerful other.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:29 pm

They forgot to mention Shaq.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:57 pm

Kazaam was an actual genie who just happened to be black. He was also quite self-actualized. There's a lot of reasons to dislike that movie, but perpetuating the subservient magic negro archetype isn't really one of them.

GaileC · Post by **GaileC** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:31 pm

erik wrote:I dunno. Perhaps it was a bigger problem 20+ years ago. Right now, I don't think that complaint and terminology holds nearly as much relevance.

Why exactly does it hold less relevance? Why is it less bigoted today than it was 20 years ago?

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:59 pm

GaileC wrote:
erik wrote:I dunno. Perhaps it was a bigger problem 20+ years ago. Right now, I don't think that complaint and terminology holds nearly as much relevance.
Why exactly does it hold less relevance? Why is it less bigoted today than it was 20 years ago?

I'm saying that it is not as prevalent now, or rather that there are more movies with minority leads which I think is what Spike Lee was advocating for. And for that matter I really doubt that many black actors actually believed they were being subservient in roles that have been labeled as "magic negro" and I'm willing to prize their opinions over the douchenozzles on TVtropes.

Just because someone is wise and not the lead actor does not make them subservient.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:16 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:God dammit. Mr. Miyagi is not a magic negro. Magic negroes are 1. magic and 2. negroes. Bagger Vance is a magic negro. John Coffey from The Green Mile is a magic negro. Mr. Miyagi is a regular mentor character.

The magic negro is a Black character who has magic fucking powers (hence "magic") and still "knows his place" and maintains a subservient role to White protagonists (hence "negro" rather than "Black"). Talking about how you might want to include magic negroes is offensive, because the magic negro archetype is offensive.

-Username17

So, wait. Is John Coffey an offensive character? Would he be offensive if he was not magic, and otherwise just as unassertive? There's a certain level of era appropriate emulation there. Being an unassuming black man was a survival strategy in what was otherwise a hyperviolent, racist, rural south, though John Coffey probably belongs in the late 1800's or very, very early 1900's more than the 1930's. But point stands: capturing the worst of an era doesn't necessarily mean endorsing it.

This isn't to say John Coffey isn't offensive anyway. His subservience is used as both a positive personality trait ("look how nice and gentle he is with all those white people!") and as a display of victimization ("it's a shame he feels the need to act like that"), and while the latter is somewhat appropriate the former is just a terrible message. But that subservient personality type has a basis in actual history, and if you stay on message that it is a tragic circumstance rather than a respectable personality trait, then I don't think there's a problem.

Of course, I can think of exactly zero examples of a magic negro that actually do that, so in practice 'magic negro' is a giant red racism flag.

GaileC · Post by **GaileC** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:51 pm

erik wrote:I'm saying that it is not as prevalent now, or rather that there are more movies with minority leads which I think is what Spike Lee was advocating for.

Gotcha; I agree with that, and misunderstood your point about the relevance of the "trope" (I prefer the word "tripe" in this case, personally).

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:57 am

Race: Negro
Class: Magical

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:50 am

Negro Racial Traits

Ability bonuses +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Base Speed 40'
Must make a daily will (DC 10+1/10th gold in personal possession) save to not spend any money physically on hand on berry flavoured juices, fried fowl, melon, mint flavoured cigars, and alcohol. If they have no gold, they must make a will save to resist pawning their most valuable item (DC 10+1/10 gold piece value of item) to then spend the money on same items.
Rage as a barbarian 1/day.
Alignment Usually Chaotic, often Evil
Favoured Classes Magical, Barbarian, President.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go donate to the president's reelection fund, or something...

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:59 am

Shit. When I image-googled "I like where this thread is heading" the 3rd one was from stormfront.

It's like google knows what I'm gonna post to.

And now, to slowly back away from thread...

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