5e isnt even D&D....

[CapnTthePirateG]

Well, we'll probably get the flying invisible wizard back.

[JonSetanta]

And thus history repeats itself, and I start wishing I did not share air with those people. Then again, can I judge them if they're having fun playing the game in a rather manner?

Hey, I don't judge them. Some of my friends are staunch grognards that get butthurt about things as minor as beardless dwarf women, and I ignore that.

But when they insist on playing a strictly nonmagical Fighter that does nothing but Full Attack, then complain when the spellcaster flies around invisible blasting out charms and AoEs, that's where I have a problem.
It's not that their personal play style is flawed but that they view the play style and capabilities of others as "too powerful".

I believe in Magic cards this is the definition of 'scrub', although I've heard the term (and been called that) used for just about anything, especially someone that simply loses a match due to luck.
Essentially a scrub is someone that refuses to accept that certain options are better than others, and a refusal to use such options to win, even though they truly do want to win. Instead they pick suboptimal options and verbally shoot down the better ones for being stupid.

[shadzar]

But when they insist on playing a strictly nonmagical Fighter that does nothing but Full Attack, then complain when the spellcaster flies around invisible blasting out charms and AoEs, that's where I have a problem.

but where does this happen? even in 3rd i only BARELY saw this, when someone thought they were supposed to be playing AGAINST the other players. Then before it got to far the person was explained that the game was a co-op not a competition and everyone works together. never, NEVER have i actually seen a case where anyone complains they didnt get as much time to talk as the next person....just because the "scene" was over. when the other kender in a 3rd game died (eaten by a plant cause the DM likes to fuck with that guy) he didnt even complain about that.

ONLY did i ever see this online AFTER 3rd came out, so where are these assholes and did they just come about with 3rd?

im guessing it IS 3rd since AoEs is mentioned, and we just called such "bucket" spells, cause you fill the bucket with a volume of X like Stinking Cloud. granted "bucket" isnt probably widely used.

or is it people not playing the game and just poking with the numbers?

where are these Fighter players bitching about the Wizard class progression? as you said, maybe it wasnt a problem wiht the game, but as i always like to check first, a problem with player mentality about what the game is.

Occum Razor and all that.. if a few people ahve a problem with it and the majority dont, then odds are it is the way those few people are trying to use it.

usually i hear it like this when the Wizard has much more power:

Fighter: Fuck we lost the wizard! lets retreat with his body and hole up until we can get him back or we gonna die!

it doesnt seem that the 15 minute workday and LFQW can even exist at the same time. the wizard is too strong, but he is useless after 15 minutes. WTF?!?!

[JonSetanta]

ONLY did i ever see this online AFTER 3rd came out, so where are these assholes and did they just come about with 3rd?

Nope, this was a problem of nonmagical whiners back in AD&D as well.

I was one of them, briefly, after the DM allowed warriors to use attacks as "blocks" and parry hits coming at them.
I spent five rounds trading blows with a good paladin (mine was LE, served devils) before the Necromancer in our party decided "OK, you're taking too long. Finger of Death!" and the encounter was over. I was furious, the DM allowed only one block action after that, but it was at that moment that I realized how stupidly unfair spellcasters were compared to warriors.

So I started playing spellcasters, from AD&D to 3.0 to 3.5. And that's when I heard the complaints of other players, just as I did with my first encounter with Save or Dies.

[shadzar]

ONLY did i ever see this online AFTER 3rd came out, so where are these assholes and did they just come about with 3rd?

Nope, this was a problem of nonmagical whiners back in AD&D as well.

I was one of them, briefly, after the DM allowed warriors to use attacks as "blocks" and parry hits coming at them.
I spent five rounds trading blows with a good paladin (mine was LE, served devils) before the Necromancer in our party decided "OK, you're taking too long. Finger of Death!" and the encounter was over. I was furious, the DM allowed only one block action after that, but it was at that moment that I realized how stupidly unfair spellcasters were compared to warriors.

So I started playing spellcasters, from AD&D to 3.0 to 3.5. And that's when I heard the complaints of other players, just as I did with my first encounter with Save or Dies.

see this, is what i dont get.. what is to get furious over if the necro and yourself were on the same side.. wasnt the goal of both to defeat the good paladin? was the optional XP rule in effect that made you get less for not making the hill? then were you thinking XP is somehow a measure of who is the better player?

i can understand a bit of the "spotlight" bit where there are assholes that want to replace the rogue as a wizard when you already HAVE a rogue in the party...but the rest i just cant see the reason behind getting mad about.

what got you so furious about the combat being over if that was the current goal of the party? then i have ot ask, did you think it was unfair that the cleric did most of the healing and aside from bandaging/stabilizing and rest, you couldnt just heal fully on your own? or the game having in some places "magic mart" that allowed senzu beans and health potions to be everywhere make that not even a consideration?

i really dont see the problem unless you come at it form a want of the DMs attention perspective.

to hell with the math, the math supports co-op play, and STILL isnt hasnt been explained to me in a way that when a wizard is NOT an asshole player, or where PvP isnt involved (including fighter bonus XP for killing things), that there is really a problem with the wizards power structure.

did you for some reason feel those 5 rounds had been rendered pointless or something, and if so; why?

[Foxwarrior]

Some of my friends are staunch grognards that get butthurt about things as minor as beardless dwarf women, and I ignore that.

That's not a grognard; that's a fan of Terry Pratchett.

[JonSetanta]

what got you so furious about the combat being over if that was the current goal of the party?

It was a one on one challenge between two paladins.
We weren't getting anywhere so the mage became impatient and ruined the challenge.

You're assuming it was a co-op encounter. It wasn't. I couldn't even fulfill the requirement of "defeat the melee tanker".

I've been fairly polite to you, unlike most of Den, but discussing a thing as simple as a one on one confrontation between two noncasters as a near-impossible encounter with the bounds of 3-5 round combat doesn't seem to get through to you. Do you understand now?

That's not a grognard; that's a fan of Terry Pratchett.

Same thing.

[shadzar]

what got you so furious about the combat being over if that was the current goal of the party?

It was a one on one challenge between two paladins.

your initial post as i quoted, doesnt state this part.

"trading blows for 5 rounds" could have been in the middle of a combat encounter, just as easily as a duel.

it helps when you present the details clearly, and makes more sense.

do you understand my reply to the initial mention of the paladin fight now?

the internet isnt Dionne Warwick's 1-800-get-your-future-here. i am no mind reader.

[sake]

It was a one on one challenge between two paladins.
We weren't getting anywhere so the mage became impatient and ruined the challenge.

Would it have actually made you feel any better if it had been a Rogue who said "Bored now." and put a crossbow bolt into the back of the paladins head?

So you were having some tense fight where you both too evenly matched to defeat the other, and the wizard who doesn't give a shit about honorable fights killed the fucker with one spell while he was completely distracted by you. That doesn't make the wizard sound overpowered, it makes me wonder why don't all classes have some sort of coup de grace type move they could have done in that situation.

[JonSetanta]

Would it have actually made you feel any better if it had been a Rogue who said "Bored now." and put a crossbow bolt into the back of the paladins head?

So you were having some tense fight where you both too evenly matched to defeat the other, and the wizard who doesn't give a shit about honorable fights killed the fucker with one spell while he was completely distracted by you. That doesn't make the wizard sound overpowered, it makes me wonder why don't all classes have some sort of coup de grace type move they could have done in that situation.

For the first part, I suppose I would have been equally pissed, but not as much; the Rogue would have to succeed at sneaking around before the shot, or at least flank... which depends on actual teamwork with me.
Cheap, but still not as powerful.

This second part.. hooooo boy... every time I think I'm being creative with writing some new feat, maneuver, or class for melee methods of instant death, it gets shot down. I get it, I get the point; death effects aren't for warriors.
I might have been happy even with a WoF setup back in AD&D or some kind of damage boosting maneuver at the time, but all I had was full attack, and it just didn't cut it (pun intended)

Or rather... as with the way Pathfinder went, Finger of Death would synergize well with the damage I was dealing in melee combat. Damage stacks with damage which results in a clean team win.

[Neurosis]

Sigma999, I must say that I find the scenario you described incredibly bathetic, perfect fodder for a webcomic/comedy sketch/film.

[fectin]

bathetic

It's a little depressing that you know that word, and 99% of native speakers don't.

[OgreBattle]

It's not fun to have your story moment get pissed on by others. Seems more of a case of th necro player being a dick than the rules though


I'd say there was less complaining in editions before third, the ad&d Fighter was more durable n deadly and the Mage more vulnerable, with less spells too.

[JonSetanta]

Sigma999, I must say that I find the scenario you described incredibly bathetic, perfect fodder for a webcomic/comedy sketch/film.

I thought that was a typo until I looked it up. Well played.

OgreBattle, I don't blame the Necro (OK maybe I do a bit) but they were just using their inherent class abilities to end the encounter and hurry on with the quest.

In retrospect it was comedic, but from my perspective it was one for all warrior-players eternal; your class sucks in the later levels and there's nothing you can do about it.

I got a black dragon mount and unholy sword about a session before the campaign ended, and the Necro killed it just to show what could be done.
Then the cleric made it an undead dragon.
I was, yet again, furious. And sort of glad we were starting over. My character retired to an immortal life of servitude in Baator.

Every campaign we played after that never made it past level 6. We were essentially doing E6 before it was invented, between both AD&D and 3.5.

[Neurosis]

Part of the reason it was funny was actually the way you described it. If I actually picture the necromancer going "Bored now", for whatever reason, that's lolworthy. But....

I got a black dragon mount and unholy sword about a session before the campaign ended, and the Necro killed it just to show what could be done.

Yeah, that player is a fucking dick.

bathetic

It's a little depressing that you know that word, and 99% of native speakers don't.

Not sure how to take that.

[erik]

It's a little depressing that you know that word, and 99% of native speakers don't.

Not sure how to take that.

As a compliment, I'd say. =-)

[shadzar]

I got a black dragon mount and unholy sword about a session before the campaign ended, and the Necro killed it just to show what could be done.

this just proves asshole players exist, not that the wizard class is too powerful. this is the reason the DM has his blue bolts to strike down the necro dead before his spell goes off.

an asshole rogue character player could severe your spinal cord while you sleep...it doesnt prove that the rogue class is too powerful.

[fectin]

Not sure how to take that.

Both as a sincere compliment to you and as idle musings on the downfall of western civilization.

[Neurosis]

Well, thank you then. : )

I won't discredit myself and western civilization further by telling you where and when I learned the word.

[shadzar]

Appropriate Armor
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... e/20120328

Appropriate armor is armor that is appropriate to the culture, environment, available technology and building materials, and threat.

this is a good stopping place for the article....but....

Even though the image is from the BBC "Merlin" series, it's pretty historically correct. So this would be culturally appropriate, right? Well, all except for the part that it wasn't culturally appropriate for a woman to fight in that time period's military forces. That means we have to set aside reality for a moment and start looking at this discussion from the point of view of the hypothetical . . . or from the point of view of the fantasy setting.

well considering she isnt just a woman of Camelot but an evil sorceress...then i guess it really doesnt matter what society thinks of her now does it?

and did you get permission from NBC or BBC or SyFy channel to use this image in your magazine out of context in this way? Yeah NBC and BBC make this program together, so hoping the lawyers from UK dont find you is a bit off, since an American company actually does hold copyrights.

anyway....

So let's decide that we are no longer talking about Earth in medieval England. We're talking about a fantasy game.

because a women is in armor? Ever heard of Joan of Arc? medieval Europe.. yeah sounds like where she was, and considering France and England often were at war....why does it have to differ so in a fantasy game? what is wrong with fantasy medieval England? that place where magic, dragons, monsters, etc run wild such that D&D was founded on?

For clarity, the following is my personal stand on appropriate armor.

Armor should look appropriate to the culture, environment, materials available, and technology, first and foremost. If the armor doesn't pass that test, then it doesn't matter whether it is being worn by a man or a woman.

you said that already...

oh do lets fuck up understanding art again shall we?

Manga is the Japanese term for comic. we use the term just to state that it is eastern comics, rather than western. likewise for your education Jon Shitheady...anime is just the Japanese term for cartoon. likewise depicting the term as meaning east not west.

there are manga that use styles like the presented Fantastic Realism...because that one is like western comics, and being both comics, they are exchangeable styles.

what you have for manga here is more along the lines of a hentai.. meaning pervert in Japanese...ergo PORN COMIC. why not state what your artist actually drew, rather than debase a culture because your as has none?

photorealism...yeah because MANY people had skulls as kneepads for armor in real life. the intricate detail of such was SO worth it to place time into armor making for it...aside from that it does look like common plate mail.

very sad as an art director to not understand art, or cultures, when this article deals with EXACTLY that, and present them falsely.

does this dumbfuck that is trying to lead the art and lusts for Wayne Reynolds cock tattooed to his tongue, have ANY education about what he is writing about?

these art articles are about as silly as having Mike Mearls design D&D...oh fuck...

someone on WotC or ENWorld, PLEASE draw his attention here, if he, unlike the rest of the WotC schmucks, have any balls to hear real criticism of his articles and opinions on what he thinks art is, rather than being surrounded by kiss-asses on WotC and ENWorld forums. feel free to post this to another forum changing out the more colorful words if you wish where this retard can actually see, and maybe learn something about art, styles, AND cultures other than his secluded upbringing has provided for him.

[John Magnum]

In the example, I can't really tell the difference between "manga" and "fantastical realism".

[wotmaniac]

In the example, I can't really tell the difference between "manga" and "fantastical realism".

stylistic elements like facial structure and body language.
In other words, nothing substantive. The author clearly has a cultural bias.

[Stubbazubba]

And that is not photorealism; the only difference between the 'Fantastic Realism' and the 'Photorealism' is the design of the armor.

[OgreBattle]

Well, that article was everything I expected it to be.


All I want is quality of execution.

Here's some art I like:


Here we have a highly stylized charcter... with a very strong sense of volume to the design. You can tell what is cloth and what is hard armor and the straps are made with the care and detail of somebody who knows what actual armor looks like.
In many ways it has more 'photorealism' than say, Wayne England's designs where round people have flat slabs of armor glued to them.



Here's some space ork figures. The codex they come from also has great artwork. DoWI orks look like shit though, and DoWII's warboss also looks a lot worse than any other depiction of a warboss by games workshop.

Here's some awesome Frank Frazetta

His colors are great and he has a really really really refined sense of anatomy, his heroes move with the grace of hunting cats. It's also quite highly stylized. Most people don't wear pants, but damn does he draw some fierce ass muscles.



This one's by Angus McBride. He actually does paintings for books with realistic armor, so he has a great sense of what's realistic, and fits it fantastically into the fantasy.

Stuff by Yoshida



He's shown his versatility in various projects. Again a great sense of how things work which he commands in doing his fantastic designs.


I just like stuff that looks good. That's it. I enjoy good beef, good chicken, good pork and I will take a good eggplant over crappy chicken.

[hogarth]

So let's decide that we are no longer talking about Earth in medieval England. We're talking about a fantasy game.

because a women is in armor? Ever heard of Joan of Arc?

Considering he specifically mentioned Joan of Arc in the article, I suspect he's heard of Joan of Arc.