If you owned D&D....

[K]

However the big problem with K's idea of just cherry-picking portfolios is that the vast majority of RPG art is currently commissioned to relatively tight specifications. It's easy enough to find a portfolio which contains art of "an elf with a bow", but art like "A female elf with a bow sighting at a troll (green, long nosed) who's hitting a male dwarven cleric of pelor with a greatclub on a rope bridge over a chasm" is actually easier and cheaper to commission someone to draw than it is to find by combing through hundreds of thousands of submissions.

So if a company wants to use K's model, they would need to have less specific art pieces.

I honestly think that commissioning super-specific art downgrades the quality of the art overall. Creativity does not do well with restrictions in general. Added to that, it takes a lot more time and expense to commission art.

That being said, for something like your Player's Handbook, there really is no reason to have any commissioned art. Even things as specific as your Fighter's Handbook shouldn't need any commissioned art at all.

Setting books and adventures probably are the only place where you might want commissioned art, and it actually seems way easier to just write adventures and setting books for cool pieces of art than it is to commission art and hope it turns out well.

The problem with commissioned art is that you are stuck with it once you get it. It's not like you have the option to not pay for it if it only turns out to be acceptable, but not brilliant or not the best of the artist's work.

[FatR]

That being said, for something like your Player's Handbook, there really is no reason to have any commissioned art. Even things as specific as your Fighter's Handbook shouldn't need any commissioned art at all.

Considering that having an enticing and consistent visual presentation/aesthetics for your game is one of the three most important thing for its success (others being the gameplay being reasonably fun and the setting that inspires the sort of adventures people like to have) this is complete bullshit. I've personally seen people who got instant aversion to 4E because too much art, particularly in MM, sucked shit - and not in terms of "poorly drawn", but in terms of "these are blatant ripoffs of WoW aesthetic, or just bad concepts". The ideal future DnD must provide at least the same amount of eyecandy as MtG, and the art must be as recognizable as "this is from new DnD", as MtG art is generally recognizable as "this is from set such-and-such" to people who have even a passing familiarity with the game in question. And while this can be done with freelancers, this certainly requires commissioning art to your exact specifications. And if you think that this is somehow way too hard to do, see: MtG again.

[OgreBattle]

And if you think that this is somehow way too hard to do, see: MtG again.

To me, Brom IS Dark Sun. The pre 3e artwork is my favorite, them oilpainted covers.



Yeah, it seems M:tG just has their shit together super good.

[RobbyPants]

However the big problem with K's idea of just cherry-picking portfolios is that the vast majority of RPG art is currently commissioned to relatively tight specifications. It's easy enough to find a portfolio which contains art of "an elf with a bow", but art like "A female elf with a bow sighting at a troll (green, long nosed) who's hitting a male dwarven cleric of pelor with a greatclub on a rope bridge over a chasm" is actually easier and cheaper to commission someone to draw than it is to find by combing through hundreds of thousands of submissions.

So if a company wants to use K's model, they would need to have less specific art pieces.

I honestly think that commissioning super-specific art downgrades the quality of the art overall. Creativity does not do well with restrictions in general. Added to that, it takes a lot more time and expense to commission art.

In the case of specifically commissioned art, the aren't looking for creativity. They did that themselves. They're looking for talent and a good piece of art that meets certain specifications.

[hogarth]

[quote="FatR] Considering that having an enticing and consistent visual presentation/aesthetics for your game is one of the three most important thing for its success (others being the gameplay being reasonably fun and the setting that inspires the sort of adventures people like to have) this is complete bullshit.[/quote]
The idea of sorting through pieces of fantasy art and picking the best ones is certainly more reality-based than sorting through complete D&D rule sets and picking the best one, which is also part of K's suggested plan...

[Username17]

That being said, for something like your Player's Handbook, there really is no reason to have any commissioned art. Even things as specific as your Fighter's Handbook shouldn't need any commissioned art at all.

Considering that having an enticing and consistent visual presentation/aesthetics for your game is one of the three most important thing for its success (others being the gameplay being reasonably fun and the setting that inspires the sort of adventures people like to have) this is complete bullshit. I've personally seen people who got instant aversion to 4E because too much art, particularly in MM, sucked shit - and not in terms of "poorly drawn", but in terms of "these are blatant ripoffs of WoW aesthetic, or just bad concepts". The ideal future DnD must provide at least the same amount of eyecandy as MtG, and the art must be as recognizable as "this is from new DnD", as MtG art is generally recognizable as "this is from set such-and-such" to people who have even a passing familiarity with the game in question. And while this can be done with freelancers, this certainly requires commissioning art to your exact specifications. And if you think that this is somehow way too hard to do, see: MtG again.

Basically this. Get yourself a fucking art director and start commissioning art that meets specs early in the process. Wizards of the Coast is already very good at that shit. For example, here's how things "look" in Mirrodin:

There's fucking huge stuff, and it's all made of metal with big smooth parts that have shrap edges and points. The D&D characters running around have cloth that flows around like they were afraid of heat and dust storms. People wear giant bracelets like metal wasn't in short supply and they just liked having it around.

But now let's look at Innistrad (I know many people don't like the mechanics in Innistrad, but we're talking about how it looks):

There's flying buttresses and chains everywhere. The D&D characters cover themselves in lace collars and leather straps. Bodices abound. Monsters are all tortured looking and look like extras from Van Helsing. It looks different from Mirrodin. It looks distinct, because it is. It has a fucking art director, and the people who play the game know what you are talking about when you say that something looks like it came from Mirrodin or looks like it came from Innistrad.

And that is what you want to do. Get yourself a fucking art director with a fucking vision and make your game fucking look like something. That's almost the entirety of the success of Pathfinder, after all.

4e decided that what they needed to do was to look like a lame WoW knockoff. And that's what they did. People were accusing them of being a lame WoW knockoff before they even saw the rules, because of this:

So obviously you can't just pick any vision and stick to it. But you can pick any artistic vision that doesn't suck monkey nuts and stick to it.

-Username17

[K]

I don't think people here understand what an art director does: he/she creates pleasing product regardless of where the art comes from. Pathfinder is successful because Eric Mona was a good art director and he probably hired an equally good art director and pushed for good art when they kicked him upstairs.

A bad art director finds art that is derivative instead of original, put pieces together that are jarring, picks bad pieces because of the wrong reasons, can't cultivate talent for when you do want to commission, and asks for the wrong things for commissions. You can't fix those problems purely through commissioning work to hyper-specific specs.

That being said, looking at Frank's sample is actually a pretty strong argument to keep commissioning to a minimum. Two of the pictures are great, two are acceptable, and the rest are shit. That works for a card game where you don't actually look at blown-up images for any length of time, but for full-page images in an RPG, you have a problem.

The real kicker is that you had to pay for all of it because you commissioned it. This means that to make deadline and budget, you have to use the shit pieces.

On another note, I don't really understand why people think a Kitchen-sink RPG needs a single art style. In fact, we know what happens when a very specific vision is pushed on a the core books of a kitchen-sink game: you get failures like Earthdawn and 4e DnD. Specific art styles only work for niche games where you expect to sell a small amount.

The game itself should be supporting multiple visions of how to play the game and the only rule is that all the art should look awesome and work together. The Player's Handbook should have several different artists and art styles in order to visually represent the different ways that someone can play your game.

A Fighter's Handbook should have even more variety. There should be emo fighting heroes, military heroes, villain fighters, guys in light armor and full plate, all kind of monsters getting stabbed/bludgeoned/slashed... the whole field.

Like Dark Sun and Brom, a setting book or adventure should be one vision.

[Neurosis]

That being said, looking at Frank's sample is actually a pretty strong argument to keep commissioning to a minimum. Two of the pictures are great, two are acceptable, and the rest are shit. That works for a card game where you don't actually look at blown-up images for any length of time, but for full-page images in an RPG, you have a problem.

Beg to differ; I don't look at RPG art for any longer than I look at CCG art. Sometimes, I look at it a lot less. SR4A is filled with beautiful full color artwork that I really admire. I would say I've spent less than a couple second s per picture actually looking at it.

[K]

[quote="FatR] Considering that having an enticing and consistent visual presentation/aesthetics for your game is one of the three most important thing for its success (others being the gameplay being reasonably fun and the setting that inspires the sort of adventures people like to have) this is complete bullshit.

The idea of sorting through pieces of fantasy art and picking the best ones is certainly more reality-based than sorting through complete D&D rule sets and picking the best one, which is also part of K's suggested plan...[/quote]

If you can't evaluate a submission of a supplement or a sourcebook in a small amount of time, you shouldn't be in the business of making RPGs.

We already know what we get from crony-capitalism RPGs: a lot of bad rules and filler material that no one should have paid for that also hurt the brand.

[hogarth]

I don't think people here understand what an art director does: he/she creates pleasing product regardless of where the art comes from. Pathfinder is successful because Eric Mona was a good art director and he probably hired an equally good art director and pushed for good art when they kicked him upstairs.

As far as I know, Erik Mona (not Eric) has never been an art director. His job titles have ranged from editor to publisher, I believe (not counting the stuff he has written).

If you can't evaluate a submission of a supplement or a sourcebook in a small amount of time, you shouldn't be in the business of making RPGs.

That's not my point. Who are these mystery people who are volunteering to submit good quality, fully-developed D&D core rule systems to you (with no guarantee of any financial compensation)?

[erik]

(not Eric)

That's right muthafuckas.

Represent!

Carry onward.

[hogarth]

We already know what we get from crony-capitalism RPGs: a lot of bad rules and filler material that no one should have paid for that also hurt the brand.

The more I think about this, the more I think it sounds like U.S. opinion polls where, if an election were held today Mitt Romney would lose to Barack Obama but a "generic unnamed Republican" would beat Obama.

Maye once "generic unnamed Republican" has finished running for president, he can turn his hand to game design!

[K]

If you can't evaluate a submission of a supplement or a sourcebook in a small amount of time, you shouldn't be in the business of making RPGs.

That's not my point. Who are these mystery people who are volunteering to submit good quality, fully-developed D&D core rule systems to you (with no guarantee of any financial compensation)?

Do you know how many people submitted a proposal the last time WotC put out a call for proposals for a new setting?

50,000ish. WotC ended up choosing one of their friends.

Do you know how many people write entire novels on just the chance that someone will publish them? If the self-publishing statistics are any measure, the answer is "millions."

People want to publish DnD material. Badly. Just look at any DnD message board in existence.

In fact, a lot of the iconic DnD material was submitted and just happened to get past the secretary. For example, Ed Greenwood submitted Forgotten Realms to TSR and was lucky enough to get it bought at a time when the company did not accept submissions because he sent them about a million words of material in a crate with full maps. Dungeon Magazine has been mostly submission-based for decades.

Do we really want to go through the list of iconic DnD material that was an unsolicited submission?

[infected slut princess]

Do we really want to go through the list of iconic DnD material that was an unsolicited submission?

I would find that interesting.

[hogarth]

Do you know how many people submitted a proposal the last time WotC put out a call for proposals for a new setting?

50,000ish. WotC ended up choosing one of their friends.

So you're saying there was an awesome submission there that they didn't choose?

[Citation needed]

(Leaving aside the obvious point that designing a core system from soup to nuts is different from designing a campaign setting, of course.)

[shadzar]

I don't think people here understand what an art director does: he/she creates pleasing product regardless of where the art comes from. Pathfinder is successful because Eric Mona was a good art director and he probably hired an equally good art director and pushed for good art when they kicked him upstairs.

also Erik was a PRODUCT director. what others are saying is people like Jon S of WotC are problematic. it might be good for MtG because they want some fancy pretty art for a card and dont care really WHAT that art it, but for an RPG, the game should direct the art, while there needs to be an ARTIST director to mark sure all the artists are drawing the proper art. not just making up art that doesnt fit where the art is needed.

Twisted Fingers the Counterspell was cute, but didnt really pose as good art for the card as it really didnt suggest it was a Counterspell.

Tim the Prodigal sorcerer likewise was a good piece of art, but doesnt really suggest a sorcerer prodigal or otherwise.

Erik Mona directed art based on the game, not just fancy art to throw in somewhere. When he was editor of Dragon he understood what art the pieces needed and directed those type of pieces. Take Dragon Cover art for example. it needed to be something relative to either being a good piece of art with a dragon, or needed to be something reflecting the top story. not just some random art that has nothing to do with the words on the cover, or the articles within it.

an art director USED TO be given a set amount of art pieces that is needed with instructions on what they depict and they guided the artist to give those pieces. NOW the art director just wants to be in charge of all art decisions.

in-house or out, you need to have art exist for a purpose OTHER THAN jsut being art for arts sake.

[Previn]

Do you know how many people submitted a proposal the last time WotC put out a call for proposals for a new setting?

50,000ish. WotC ended up choosing one of their friends.

So you're saying there was an awesome submission there that they didn't choose?

[Citation needed]

(Leaving aside the obvious point that designing a core system from soup to nuts is different from designing a campaign setting, of course.)

I'd honestly be will to accept that Keith Baker didn't have the best submission out of 50,000 simply on the numbers alone. Eberron is pretty meh when you get right down to it. About the best thing I can think of to describe it is that it's a bunch of common fantasy themes mashed together in a decent way.

[K]

Do you know how many people submitted a proposal the last time WotC put out a call for proposals for a new setting?

50,000ish. WotC ended up choosing one of their friends.

So you're saying there was an awesome submission there that they didn't choose?

[Citation needed]

(Leaving aside the obvious point that designing a core system from soup to nuts is different from designing a campaign setting, of course.)

I'm saying that there is an epic number of people who want to write for DnD and WotC uses whoever is in the office this week.

You'll still have editorial oversight and approval on the design, so it's not like you just publish whatever good came in this month.

That being said, DnD is already mostly designed. The sacred cows are all installed and deviating too far is going to cause the 4e Effect where you lose a big chunk of your audience instead of the 3e Effect that was a smooth transition from one edition to another.

I mean, do you personally think that you could have made a worse edition than Pathfinder or 3.5?

[CapnTthePirateG]

Didn't Rich Burlew have a setting too?

[erik]

Regarding the RPG art bent of this thread, a good example to look at for a product that relied up several of the same artists many of whom I presume were in-house, and definitely did not maintain a consistent image: Rifts.

There is some nice art, some shitty art, but mostly there's wildly different styles that just didn't gel.

They could have really benefited by having a competent art director, especially if said director had the authority to tell Siembieda that his art was not adequate for publishing.

[Lokathor]

On another note, I don't really understand why people think a Kitchen-sink RPG needs a single art style. In fact, we know what happens when a very specific vision is pushed on a the core books of a kitchen-sink game: you get failures like Earthdawn and 4e DnD.

Earthdawn is a failure? Yeah, I guess.

Earthdawn is Kitchen Sink? That doesn't sound right at all.

[tussock]

Right now? Dump Next, it's got no buzz. Sack everyone, let 'em all reapply.

Turn the website into a giant forum for all of D&D ever, fan moderators regularly turned over and fan-rated. 2.0 all up in there.

2012 put out the "end of edition" books for 4e, the usual big compendiums, only without all the fucking whitespace and brown artwork, crunch heavy, small text, final errata never to be touched again.

2012 publish something for Pathfinder, convert and expand a GDQ mega-module campaign or something. Have the D&D logo, and the Pathfinder logo on it. Make the connection. Make a buzz with the few remaining fans. Then go quiet.

2012 Get a digital crew to seriously tidy up the back catalogue and get it all online, use every reseller who wants in. There's thousands of those fucking things and people will pay a few bucks each for them, money for nothing. Watch what moves. All the time. Talk about what's moving. What's wrong with it, what's right with it.
Add everything to this as time goes on, delayed by no more than the big retailers absolutely demand. Hope like fuck anything new outsells the old stuff.

2013 Let anyone who wants to write whatever peer-to-peer D&D software they want, using the SRD or OSRIC, as long as it's entirely open source. Ignore 4e. Play some D&D. Run some big playtests on our nice 2.0 forum. Run games on G+ and whatever else works. License non-open content from all editions to all stable platforms (according to fan voting, all 2.0 like).

2014 Publish a Basic-like game. Black & White internal, box with dice and shit in it for the mainstreet shops, two small 64-page softcovers, as many levels as can be squeezed in. Call it "Dungeons & Dragons". Keep the numbers small and the math to a minimum. Pack the words in like there's only young eyes reading it.
Get someone without Aspergers to write the fucking thing, pay editors from well outside the hobby to tell us if it's legible. Peer review the fuck out of it. Roll-under, bitches.
Plus an open-ended adventure-campaign reminiscent of the Isle of Dread, included. Try not to go bankrupt.

No playtests, just teaser-leak everything via the fan sites and a mag. Monthly drip-feeding of full content for nothing and listen to the feedback.

2015 Publish a hardcover, greyscale, Advanced Monster Manual for Dungeons & Dragons. Hit a price point. Stick monsters on a super-simple power use structure.

2016 Publish a hardcover, greyscale, Advanced Player's Handbook for Dungeons & Dragons. Like, 15 classes, 50 useless "downtime" skills, combat options other than "I attack", way more than 8 spells per level, only up to ~15th level and 7th level spells. Multiclassing via gestalt.

Reprints include errata, 2e style, errata in a pdf too, 3e style. Just fix any crazy-broken stuff slipped in, and spellos. Leave the game alone for a decade.

2017 Publish a hardcover, greyscale, Advanced Dungeon Master's Guide for Dungeons & Dragons. Full of tables and telling people to be neither a dick nor a pussy. Include world-building shit for all the monsters and possible NPCs. Tell everyone not to use the advanced book for NPCs, reprint the simple classes.

None of this is open content. It's licensed to people who handled the old 3e/AD&D open content well (or anyone who has the money, really). Open source programs, licensed product data, so they and we can make money off it. Let them find their own funding. It becomes open content when we dump it for a new edition in ~2025.

2018 Open source the Forgotten Realms, SRD style. Gods, nations, cities, rulers, characters, eras: go nuts. Retain novel publishing rights and publish them. Publish a tiny FR worldbook all prosaic about the Dales and 'minster. Drizzt dies.

2019+ Start cranking out the classics, no splatbooks, just leak-tested hardcover expansions for Dungeons & Dragons. Worldbooks for any busy downloaded world and adventure material from earlier editions.


Not that seven year plans can possibly last.

[T]

2012 Get a digital crew to seriously tidy up the back catalogue and get it all online, use every reseller who wants in. There's thousands of those fucking things and people will pay a few bucks each for them, money for nothing. Watch what moves. All the time. Talk about what's moving. What's wrong with it, what's right with it.
Add everything to this as time goes on, delayed by no more than the big retailers absolutely demand. Hope like fuck anything new outsells the old stuff.

This is not too different from what Nintendo did with the Wii. I don't know if they made a lot of cash with it, but I know several people who own 2-3 Wii games and a shit ton of games for older systems that they bought through the online store for a couple bucks a pop. Even though you could have done the same thing with a couple of emulators on your PC for free.

Using it a source of market research is doubly smart.

[Josh_Kablack]

Didn't Rich Burlew have a setting too?

He didn't merely have one, he finished in the top 3 and got paid with a giant check for a setting that WotC sat on and won't let him talk about due to NDAs.

Regardless of your opinion of GitP's talent and ideas, shelling out ten grand for material you never use is a less than optimal investment - and in hindsight. WotC should probably have published the material from all the runners up in the final two rounds in a compilation book.

[CapnTthePirateG]

I like the guy. I'm just noticing Oots takes cheap shots at Eberron every once in a while.