[TOME] Lets complete, playtest, market and sell it.

[Lokathor]

If you just blindly copy all of the SRD into one document, ignoring psionics, epic, and divine, then you get 590,365 words. You've got 801 pages of material. Citation: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11833524/allofit.rtf

Now none of that is Tome material. My "Tomes, Demons, and Darkness" PDF is almost entirely Tome material with a smattering of SRD stuff here or there (classes mostly). It's all the essays and crap and some sections that are just outlines of what needs to be filled in later. It's 265 pages. I have one picture in my PDF, and the SRD has none. So you're at like 1,050 pages pre-art. After Sundown was about 204 or 206 pages before any art was put into it, and then it's up to 224 pages right now, so Art sprinkled all about is adding maybe 10% to the size of things. So, you'll end up with maybe a 1,100 to 1,250 page document all said and done.

The Monsters and Items are already written up though! you don't have to write them again!

Wrong as a wrong thing. To make it all work together you have to go through and line-edit every single monster, spell, item, and anything else to adjust stats and update it to the new system. Even if no changes are needed, you need to look at the rule-segment in question and then determine that no changes are needed.

I've done PDFs for The Ends Of The Matrix (100%) and After Sundown (95% done, still working on that one). I've tried several times to put "dnd 3 into a single PDF", First I tried with all of 3.5 + Tome grafting, then 8 months later I tried for a while with JUST 3.5 and no changes at all, and then 8 months after that I even tried e6 + Tome just to cut down on the content count of what I'd have to put in and be "complete". There is just so much content to go through no matter what you do, it's absurd. Maybe it's less absurd if there's a dedicated team, maybe.

I don't want to break your spirit, but just know what you're signing up to do.

[fectin]

I think parody and fair use would cover it ok.... K could probably tell us

IMHO it is extremely unlikely that the commentary would be transformative enough to overcome copying the whole thing.

[K]

Without a signed contract from WotC allowing the license of the SRD above and beyond the Open Gaming License, trying to sell a Tome version of DnD is just asking to get your ass sued.

Frankly, it's not worth it. Writing your own game comes with none of the crippling legal liability and using the SRD comes with nearly limitless legal liability because the field of Open Licenses is almost entirely without solid legal precedents.

This is above and beyond the fact that the Tome were only ever spot fixes for some problems. Actually fixing all of the problems of DnD and making it look like DnD is already a project on par with writing a new game or harder.

[MGuy]

I support what K said. Might as well make your own game and see how it turns out. I suggest getting someone who has a similar vision to help you out with it. I'm finding that writing a game solo is not only making me second guess myself each step of the way but without aid I am getting slowed down by work, relationships, generally being miserable, and other distractions such that I am taking longer than I should to complete the project (Which I'm a year and a half + into and not even done with what would be the PHB).

[the_taken]

Notice how I had my own game design project going on? I wasn't getting anything done mostly due to other things happening in my life, but I was also losing motivation with every other update due to the fact that I wasn't getting as much feedback as I needed; I wasn't sparking any discussions. (Why is that?) Maybe if we teamed up and hold regular discussions we could get more done?

Title idea (I think it's a good one.) The series of books can be called the 'Tomes of Adventure'.

[Mask_De_H]

Taken, remember how TNE, Kitchen Sink Fantasy, The 5e that Wasn't, and almost every broad system that isn't After Sundown played out? You need to have something yourself, then kick out ideas to the group to modify and play with. Crowdsourcing, especially on the Den, doesn't end well.

[Midnight_v]

People ask why. The reason that people want to do the the tomes like this is because we love it. It was just the right type of fix that lots of people wanted. Lots have people have stolen from it and use bits of it like Frank and K have said at least once that they wanted/didn't care etc.
Labor of love my friends labor of love. . .
The kickstarter thing has merit. I hear it works for many people, hell worked for GITP I hear.
Needs some damn pictures. . .

[Chamomile]

Giant in the Playground has a wee bit more of a following than the Tomes.

[Kaelik]

I wouldn't contribute to a Tome kickstarter (well I wouldn't contribute to a gitp one either) because I would never trust you assholes (of which I include myself) to finish what you start.

I mean, if Frank and K were the ones making a commitment I'd trust them to actually finish it, but not anyone else here. And unfortunately Frank and K are both totally against it, so fuck you guys and never finishing your work.

[Seerow]

Giant in the Playground has a wee bit more of a following than the Tomes.

GitP was also doing a kickstarter to reprint books people had been asking for for years. Almost every single donation was actually more or less a pre-order for a book/game/pdf.

It was literally thousands of people who had been asking for various things for years finally getting a chance to buy those things. That's an opportunity most creative enterprises simply won't have.

[Midnight_v]

Giant in the Playground has a wee bit more of a following than the Tomes.

GitP was also doing a kickstarter to reprint books people had been asking for for years. Almost every single donation was actually more or less a pre-order for a book/game/pdf.

It was literally thousands of people who had been asking for various things for years finally getting a chance to buy those things. That's an opportunity most creative enterprises simply won't have.

Oh, ok.... well fuck it then. Lets play shitty games, made by genuine fucktards, powered by fanboi's! YEA!

[Finkin]

Giant in the Playground has a wee bit more of a following than the Tomes.

GitP was also doing a kickstarter to reprint books people had been asking for for years. Almost every single donation was actually more or less a pre-order for a book/game/pdf.

It was literally thousands of people who had been asking for various things for years finally getting a chance to buy those things. That's an opportunity most creative enterprises simply won't have.

Oh, ok.... well fuck it then. Lets play shitty games, made by genuine fucktards, powered by fanboi's! YEA!

Pretty much.

As long as games with half-assed mechanics and shitty balance keep dominating in the only column that matters (profits) the Pathfinders, Retro-clones, and 4es of the world are what we are stuck with.

[Midnight_v]

Without a signed contract from WotC allowing the license of the SRD above and beyond the Open Gaming License, trying to sell a Tome version of DnD is just asking to get your ass sued.

Frankly, it's not worth it. Writing your own game comes with none of the crippling legal liability and using the SRD comes with nearly limitless legal liability because the field of Open Licenses is almost entirely without solid legal precedents.

This is above and beyond the fact that the Tome were only ever spot fixes for some problems. Actually fixing all of the problems of DnD and making it look like DnD is already a project on par with writing a new game or harder.

Wait a sec... are were really going above the srd there? How is what we suggest different from any other game using the srd?
There are many games that use D20 and thus contain some part of the SRD.
Lokathor Did some work with it, by himself. . . I dare say its more about division of resources and pruining more than anything.
Making the first book couldn't have everything in it. . . becasuse the half a miliion words thing doesn't work.
You basically choose 11 base classes, and start doing a mock up of the PHB... I would think.
So first is Selection going:
Barbarian= Tome Barbarian
Bard=Jester or Assassin
Cleric: Cleric
Druid= Druid, or Elementalist
Fighter = Tome Fighter
Monk = Tome Monk
Paladin= Tome Paladin
Ranger = Samurai (rangers are made via fighter)
Rogue: Rogue, with a "Playing a Rogue" wordbox.
Wizard: Wizard
Sorcerer: Firmage/or Elementalist
There would be an info box explaining Sorcerer Casting Progression and what is meant by that, because magic weapons are are items with an ego score that happen to have sorcerer casting.
-------------------------------------
Basically the way to make this into a sell able book it by pulling the same shit that Paizo did.
Find a badass artist and rewrite the players handbook with your own races, classes, feats, spells.
Since its the TOME, a lot of the information would have to be in a Dmg, of somekind.... because some things in there is things, that assholes would feel like "thats for the DM to KNOW" The tome had a lot of commentary that made people think about what was WRONG with the game.
You don't make people think when they buy a product... clearly thats a mistake.
You sell products on emotional appeal to the unwashed masses. I"m pretty sure thats what marketing, propaganda, and spin-doctors, are all partaking in.
Course the other problems are 1. Kaelik has a point, there'd have to be a bigger motivating factor to be able to trust people to do something like this with spare time, and expect them to make deadlines.
2. More importantly, Frank and K, give a fuck less about doing it, so the people most capable of answering questions about "what did this mean" are right out of the whole thing.
The DC for this type of thing is pretty damn high, but you can lower it somewhat by NOT trying to port the Tomes wholecloth into the SRD.
In part you have to do what paizo did. . .
1. Rewrite the books w/you own changes
2. Strike at an opportune time.
3. Find someway to reach out to moron fanbois (who you elitist jerks hate)
4. ??? Shake well
5. Profit.

Apparently your damn product doesn't even have to be any good. Fuck.

[Kaelik]

Your list of basic classes is shit.

Be smarter and don't copy the PHB.

There is no reason to have the Fighter/Samurai/Barbarian/Monk/Rogue as 5 of your eleven classes. Those occupy way too fucking much of the exact same role.

Frankly, the Tome Paladin is also pretty terrible in Core next to a Core cleric. So you should not have both of those either.

Instead, you show off some of the more different classes. I mean, ignoring that no one even agrees what a Druid should be in Tome, my starting list would be:

Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Rogue
Monk
Samurai
Barbarian
Totemist
Jester
Two casters of the at will variety, I'd probably avoid the firemage because his utility is shittier, but whatever.

IceHeart Mage/Stormlord or something.

[Midnight_v]

Kaelik... kaelik.
...you think everything is shit... you gotta really balance that out somewhat by saying somethings "Amazingly good" or "brilliant" some such...otherwise you just seem like a naysayer dude... still... taking that into account, and not making it about you...

That was an example. I don't care what classes are there, I'm saying that what would need to be done. The logic you use is somewhat sound though.

Let me engage that for a second, if I may? My thinking on this is such.

The thing that's missing there is you're making too much change to fast. From what I can see people resist that.
Apparently the first thing people do is flip in and see what you've done with their favorite class. Keep in mind that what were discussing is "Trying to get people to buy it", thats a pretty damn big motivator on some level.

The fact that you dropped the Paladin, is right out going to be a major source of bullshit and complaints. Further, there's 2 whole sections in the tome covering the paladins code. So we should likely use some of that.
Further, the fighter, you'll lose more people than gain, by getting rid of it. More on that in a sec....
Totemist, and Druid, are the same fucking thing in most peoples mind, role wise... the rest of them don't even know what the fuck that means.
So even though you tried to diversify, you have 2 classes where both bits of fluff say "I speak for the trees/ feel the wrath of nature"
Fighter there are a lot of reasons to take that out, the most compelling arguments I've heard come from the den, to be honest, but...

...really here's the deal with you, and a few others here...

You can't completely do what you want hell what I want, when it comes to shit like this, you can't say "fuck that Idea, and your thoughts on the matter, those ideas are shit and were taking them out ... for your own fucking GOOD!" Even, when your right... dude, ESPECIALLY when your right.
Thats Denner thought, its fucking correct, but it doesn't move product.
Like fucking a virgin... you have to work it in slow. The changes have to come slow and steady, you can't just RAM your opinions in.

The reason you copy the phb is because thats what people are LOOKING for NOT 5th edition but a working version of 3.5.
...
...
Or they're looking for magical tea party, but those aren't who were selling to so much.

*edit: Totemist: Having a guy who lets you play the monster is needed, yes, but somethign for book two, also, all those binds need a section for themselves. that would take even more space.

[Kaelik]

Paladin: No one actually gives a shit about the Paladin, people are perfectly fine playing a Cleric instead, and the Paladin can show up in the supplements, where it belongs. That's also the best place to put him and all his Paladin Code nonsense and alignment bullshit.

Fighter: Suck a dick. People are okay with you changing the core constructs. No one complained that the Thief became a Rogue or the Mage became a Wizard. People will be fine either being a Barbarian or Samurai. We just tell them that there are rage fighters and skill fighters, and they fucking deal with it. This also fits best with the idea of the Fighter being the advanced version, where it goes in a supplement as a further refinement for fightering, like all the bullshit infinity options for Wizards.

Totemist Druid: Uh... What? No really, those are nothing alike at all, I'm just going to ignore that entire argument because it's really dumb, see below.

Not changing anything because people are dumb fucks who literally need the exact copy of the PHB: Apparently you are confused, we are never going to sell the Tomes to people who think that fighters are as good as Wizards, and everything is perfect, and 4e is great. Stupid people are stupid, and are going to ignore this product whether it has an Overpowered Paladin with full casting and full BAB and class features, or it doesn't have a class called Paladin.

If they aren't willing to accept evil bad changes from the PHB formula like removing the Paladin, you know, the paladin that doesn't even show up the Tomes at all and clearly isn't good enough to compete with Tome characters and therefore went years of time in which there were no goddam Tome Paladins, then they won't accept any part of it at all, so it's pointless to attempt to sell to them.

If we want to sell the Tomes, then we need to sell the Tomes, not some other shit that isn't the Tomes but is more dumbass friendly.

If you want to sell the Tomes, you make the goddam Tomes, and then you sell them to whomever wants to buy the Tomes. You don't make some shitty knock off of 3.5 that refuses to be the Tomes because people don't like the Tomes, and then attempt to sell that.

[Finkin]

Paladin: No one actually gives a shit about the Paladin, people are perfectly fine playing a Cleric instead, and the Paladin can show up in the supplements, where it belongs. That's also the best place to put him and all his Paladin Code nonsense and alignment bullshit.

Fighter: Suck a dick. People are okay with you changing the core constructs. No one complained that the Thief became a Rogue or the Mage became a Wizard. People will be fine either being a Barbarian or Samurai. We just tell them that there are rage fighters and skill fighters, and they fucking deal with it. This also fits best with the idea of the Fighter being the advanced version, where it goes in a supplement as a further refinement for fightering, like all the bullshit infinity options for Wizards.

Totemist Druid: Uh... What? No really, those are nothing alike at all, I'm just going to ignore that entire argument because it's really dumb, see below.

Not changing anything because people are dumb fucks who literally need the exact copy of the PHB: Apparently you are confused, we are never going to sell the Tomes to people who think that fighters are as good as Wizards, and everything is perfect, and 4e is great. Stupid people are stupid, and are going to ignore this product whether it has an Overpowered Paladin with full casting and full BAB and class features, or it doesn't have a class called Paladin.

If they aren't willing to accept evil bad changes from the PHB formula like removing the Paladin, you know, the paladin that doesn't even show up the Tomes at all and clearly isn't good enough to compete with Tome characters and therefore went years of time in which there were no goddam Tome Paladins, then they won't accept any part of it at all, so it's pointless to attempt to sell to them.

If we want to sell the Tomes, then we need to sell the Tomes, not some other shit that isn't the Tomes but is more dumbass friendly.

If you want to sell the Tomes, you make the goddam Tomes, and then you sell them to whomever wants to buy the Tomes. You don't make some shitty knock off of 3.5 that refuses to be the Tomes because people don't like the Tomes, and then attempt to sell that.

The big problem with this approach is that the vast majority of your customer base is...well, already here.

I say this mostly because other people will not respond well to the lot of you saying "Here, this is fucking good, trust us, the math all works and it is balanced across most any level range. Fucking eat it and like it, you dumb cocksuckers."

You are going to have to make compromises and give people a little of what they like even when you know it throats donkey cock, and while you are doing that you might get the chance to convince them that they will like the stuff that you fixed so that it doesn't completely shit balls.

[Kaelik]

The big problem with this approach is that the vast majority of your customer base is...well, already here.

I say this mostly because other people will not respond well to the lot of you saying "Here, this is fucking good, trust us, the math all works and it is balanced across most any level range. Fucking eat it and like it, you dumb cocksuckers."

You are going to have to make compromises and give people a little of what they like even when you know it throats donkey cock, and while you are doing that you might get the chance to convince them that they will like the stuff that you fixed so that it doesn't completely shit balls.

You are completely wrong. No one is going to not buy a 3.5 revision because it doesn't have Paladins in the main fucking book. No one is going to through a shit fit and refuse to buy something just because it asks them to call their character a Samurai instead of a Fighter. Those are not things that are make or break.

If someone wants to play 3.5 with no changes, they can do that. If they want to play it with almost no changes because they are wedded to that shit, they can play pathfinder.

Making the Tomes have a class called Paladin in the main book that has 9th level spellcasting, full BAB, and a shit load of class features isn't going to bring in even a single person who wouldn't have bought the book otherwise.

Now, yes, one of the reasons this whole project is stupid is that most of our customer base is here. But that's not because we do or don't put the paladin and fighter in the main fucking book or a supplement. That's because most people have at least heard of the Tomes, and they mostly heard about it from someone on some other forum who likes that forum precisely because they are the type of person who hates this one.

Most people hate the Tomes with a blind passion that is genuinely blind, because all they heard is that it's shit because someone told them it was full of OPed stuff or that Frank's a jerk.

But whether or not they change their mind and buy the Tomes has literally nothing to do with whether or not we have the word Paladin attached to a class that has fuck all nothing to do with any version of Paladin that has ever existed in any D&D game ever.

[Midnight_v]

Paladin: No one actually gives a shit about the Paladin, people are perfectly fine playing a Cleric instead, and the Paladin can show up in the supplements, where it belongs. That's also the best place to put him and all his Paladin Code nonsense and alignment bullshit.

Fighter: Suck a dick. People are okay with you changing the core constructs. No one complained that the Thief became a Rogue or the Mage became a Wizard. People will be fine either being a Barbarian or Samurai. We just tell them that there are rage fighters and skill fighters, and they fucking deal with it. This also fits best with the idea of the Fighter being the advanced version, where it goes in a supplement as a further refinement for fightering, like all the bullshit infinity options for Wizards.

Totemist Druid: Uh... What? No really, those are nothing alike at all, I'm just going to ignore that entire argument because it's really dumb, see below.

Not changing anything because people are dumb fucks who literally need the exact copy of the PHB: Apparently you are confused, we are never going to sell the Tomes to people who think that fighters are as good as Wizards, and everything is perfect, and 4e is great. Stupid people are stupid, and are going to ignore this product whether it has an Overpowered Paladin with full casting and full BAB and class features, or it doesn't have a class called Paladin.

If they aren't willing to accept evil bad changes from the PHB formula like removing the Paladin, you know, the paladin that doesn't even show up the Tomes at all and clearly isn't good enough to compete with Tome characters and therefore went years of time in which there were no goddam Tome Paladins, then they won't accept any part of it at all, so it's pointless to attempt to sell to them.

If we want to sell the Tomes, then we need to sell the Tomes, not some other shit that isn't the Tomes but is more dumbass friendly.

If you want to sell the Tomes, you make the goddam Tomes, and then you sell them to whomever wants to buy the Tomes. You don't make some shitty knock off of 3.5 that refuses to be the Tomes because people don't like the Tomes, and then attempt to sell that.

The big problem with this approach is that the vast majority of your customer base is...well, already here.

I say this mostly because other people will not respond well to the lot of you saying "Here, this is fucking good, trust us, the math all works and it is balanced across most any level range. Fucking eat it and like it, you dumb cocksuckers."

You are going to have to make compromises and give people a little of what they like even when you know it throats donkey cock, and while you are doing that you might get the chance to convince them that they will like the stuff that you fixed so that it doesn't completely shit balls.

Thanks Finkin... I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking clearly here.

If we want to sell the Tomes, then we need to sell the Tomes, not some other shit that isn't the Tomes but is more dumbass friendly.

You're pretty much exactly wrong about this... people don't use DoS, linux, unix, or whatever the fuck programing, because windows, has better marketing, brand name, and most importantly... is dumbass friendly.
Period.
This is where kaelik ends up dick-slapped, everytime. You're more than adequate when it comes to creation, and balance, but you don't know how to convince people of anything.
I can get more people to buy something with emotional appeal than with "a better way to play" not people here on the den perhaps, but here is the fringe... here are the elitist jerk asses who understand math and tolerate no fuckery. However, you have to realize that most of your money will come from the dumbfucks you show such contempt for.
Ultimately, its you thats confused, because you don't understand people very well... Go to any fucking other board and ask "Do any of you care if they remove the paladin" see what you get, you ignorant fuck.
You're really a funny dude You're so smart but not smart enought to understand the unwashed massed, like at all.
No, I posit that you can totally get people to buy shit if you dress it up enough. Moreover, you HAVE to give them shit... if they want it or well, they'll hate you for telling them they've been eating shit all along.

[Kaelik]

You're pretty much exactly wrong about this... people don't use DoS, linux, unix, or whatever the fuck programing, because windows, has better marketing, brand name, and most importantly... is dumbass friendly.
Period.
...
I can get more people to buy something with emotional appeal than with "a better way to play" not people here on the den perhaps.
...
No, I posit that you can totally get people to buy shit if you dress it up enough. Moreover, you HAVE to give them shit... if they want it or well, they'll hate you for telling them they've been eating shit all along.

Apparently you are failing to understand me. Read what I actually said. I said that if you want to sell the Tomes, you have to sell the Tomes, not that if you want to sell the most copies of a thing, you should sell the Tomes because it will sell the most copies.

If I copy pasted the SRD and hired an artist, I could absolutely sell more copies of that than of the Tomes. We know this because Paizo exists. But that doesn't mean shit about selling the Tomes.

You are not going to sell the Tomes to the unwashed masses, the Piazo fanbois, the 4es no matter what you do. They will not fucking buy it. If you want to sell the Tomes, you need to figure out what type of people actually will by the Tomes, and market to those people.

Go to any fucking other board and ask "Do any of you care if they remove the paladin" see what you get, you ignorant fuck.

I have seen what you get. And surprise, it's not a total shitfuck. People are perfectly fine with the Paladin not being a core class. It wasn't even a core class throughout D&D. People are fine with changing up the Core classes a little bit.

Now of course, if you were fucking honest, you'd ask, "Do you care if they move the Paladin to a supplement to make room in the PHB for a different class?" and see what you get.

[DrPraetor]

Okay, a bit of background. Frank Trollman (also me) started playing in games which were run by Frank's dearly departed father, Ted Trollman.

Ted didn't actually run D&D - he ran "Warlock, a major D&D variant".

Read about it here:
http://blog.retroroleplaying.com/2012/0 ... riant.html

So, if you wanted to package Frank and K's tomes into a coherent rules set, it would clearly be called "Warlock". Now, in Ted's variant of Warlock, Frank wanted to play an Ice Devil which was actually a drawing of a phraint which is a rip-off of a Green Martian from the John Carter novels (the Thri-Kreen is a rip-off of a phraint which is a rip-off of the AD&D monster manual drawing of the ice devil which is a Green Martian, so five rip-offs removed from the source material). Therefore, since Frank has been playing demons in D&D since about the time he was toilet trained, obviously any variant of D&D he makes is going to have playable demons in it.

His Ice Devil was named "Icy". My halfling kept getting killed/changing classes, and had various generic 20th centuary caucasian male american names (Steve, Larry, David, Isaac, etc. etc.) but I'm retconning that character to be named "Tripod Tim". If we add K (who Frank knows much better than I do), Robin (who always played Fighters, so that's convenient), and Ted's playing group of Brian/Ty/Israel/.... Frank, the Blonde guy who rides a bike everywhere? He kinda looks like Sting? Why can't I remember his name?

So, if we're serious about "Trollman and Son's New and Improved Warlock", we have to keep in mind the following basic features:
* The classes are: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Thief, Cleric, Druid, Magic-User, Illusionist, Yarboro, Elf/Demon/Magical Thing.
* Assuming that we're dropping all of the attribute requirements for Classes, the Yarboro gets luck points instead of class features.
* Multi-class characters, for example "Magical Fighters", are a viable and significant option.
* Feats are called "Fighter Abilities" after the terminology in Warlock, which predates 3rd edition feats (but are basically the same) by about 15 years.

Frank, K (okay also me) have introduced the following refinements:
* Each "fighter ability" is actually a progression of fighter abilities, and you get more abilities for each choice-you've-made as you rise in level.
* Multi-class casters lose a fraction of their spells/day or other cool powers, but do not fall behind single-class casters in terms of the highest level spell they have available.
* Fighters do not suck.

Now these three points are all fine to say but Frank, K and I constantly differed on the question of implementation. In particular, the following issues are outstanding in getting a "Warlock 3.5e" off the ground:
* How to handle skills?
* We need a comprehensive list of fighter ability chains; we don't have one.
* How do we handle races?
* How do we handle restricted vancian spell-casting? Frank wants to get rid of slots-by-level; K and I don't particularly want to do that.

So if we can brainstorm solutions to these issues, than the various tome books could be assembled into a playable RPG.

[Kaelik]

I do not understand where you come from stranger, but where ever it is, you are going to need a dimensional portal to get back.

[Midnight_v]

I do not understand where you come from stranger, but where ever it is, you are going to need a dimensional portal to get back.

+1

[Korwin]

The reason nothing will come out of publishing the tomes by designing by Committee is pretty apparent in this thread.
It will only end in an endless circle jerking to see who is the last man jerking.

If you want to get this done. Claim the dictatorship and ask for specific goal oriented help.

Besides what is in the class chapter is totaly beside the point.
What chapters will be there?

[Midnight_v]

The reason nothing will come out of publishing the tomes by designing by Committee is pretty apparent in this thread.
It will only end in an endless circle jerking to see who is the last man jerking.

If you want to get this done. Claim the dictatorship and ask for specific goal oriented help.

Besides what is in the class chapter is totaly beside the point.
What chapters will be there?

Okay, well let me know what time I gotta check in there, boss.

My idea was that it would mirror the phb, and the pathfinder phb since people seem so fond of buying phbs over and over again. I mean its something people know what do do with. The importance is that the relavant parts are changed to reflect the tomes.
So where it says alignment, in the phb, it says alignment in the 3.T except our alignment section is actually good. Same thing with the section one "the planes" which in the phb are knida unsatisfying, really. Kaelik kinda go to me with his rousing "People ain't gonna buy this shit!" speech I actually do hear him out sometimes.
I think the main way to sell these things is to disguise them as something else, cause he's right, lots bitching occur because "I heard this frank guy..." etc. etc. and thats just fucked.
Moving on. . .

One of the big things that I think would help sell something like this even in a hostile market is book design. Its something that I honestly had never thought was important till I found a plethora of people stating they bought the books of "X" cause of the layout, or the "Art" etc.. so I stuck in my head that its one of the more important aspects of rpg book sales.