This thread can't have a title because of PhoneLobster.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I don't know who the first guy is. The second picture seems broken. The fourth is, as I recall is from a telling of Lex Luthor's backstory.

Words are good, because if you were to have described what you meant, I wouldn't have to decide what I think you mean. Which since I only get one third of your response, I'm gonna assume is this.

Pre-Crisis, Lex Luthor was a mad scientist inventor who built crazy shit to try to destroy Superman with (Or rob banks, or take over the world, or whatever he was 'feeling' that day). Post-Crisis he was retconned into a corrupt executive who's abilities largely consisted of a sharp and ruthless mind and lots and lots of money to throw at problems (some of which were solved by hiring inventors to build crazy shit that he could subsequently throw at Superman).

If that's what you're going for, well that's all well and good except Crisis rebooted the DCU, and last time I checked Rarely if ever does the story ever state that Lex began as a mad inventor and then switched to the life of an executive. If I'm wrong her, then I apologize, except that Lex is pretty heavily in the minority there. Within the scope of a single continuity, rarely does a person switch from one skillset to another that is radically different, and then if they do, it's at the end of a protracted plotline to establish this change of talent.

So, could you explain what you mean this time, instead of trying to be cute and assuming we all know automatically what you're thinking despite the fact that you've spent the last ten years I've known of your existence going to great lengths to prove nobody thinks the way you do?

[ishy]

I assume the first picture is that of a wizard. For select your spells everyday reasons.
The second probably has some hotlink protection, because after I did view image it works fine.
By text it appears to be green arrow or something. Since I don't know anything about him, I don't get the reference either. Perhaps he can change what his arrows do all the time?

[virgil]

By text it appears to be green arrow or something. Since I don't know anything about him, I don't get the reference either. Perhaps he can change what his arrows do all the time?

While likely the arrow switching, Green Arrow is known for going on to learn martial arts to a level that impresses even Lady Shiva (THE martial artist of the DC universe).

[PhoneLobster]

Okay, I'll bite: How does respecing fit into tabletop gaming going forward?

It lets players escape those trap options you accidentally left in your system, even if they are the only ones who see them as trap options. It makes them happier, it lets them do fun stuff like set up a custom skill set for special preparation for a known specific challenge and many other good things.

How do you radically change your character's skillset without totally destroying world verisimilitude in the process?

It leaves "verisimilitude protection" for each character in the hands of the player in charge of the character. If bob thinks switching from spear skill to bow skill will destroy his familiarity with his character and make his head explode he doesn't do it. Meanwhile if bob is not a fucking idiot he switches the skills around at his leisure.

Meanwhile K, I notice no defense of the witch doctor giant frog skill in your post. It is perfectly symptomatic of a skill Diablo 3 deliberately made useless undermining what limited choice the skill/rune system provides, and it was clearly built out of underwhelming nerf to back other poor design decisions to do with fucking poorly balanced elite and legendary mobs (which you also didn't defend) which in turn is tied into their poor decisions based on horrendous item drop pacing and clumsily and crudely undermining any form of productive item farming (which you also didn't offer a defence of) which in turn is tied into their singleminded obsession with forcing absolutely everyone into the real money auction house... which you also didn't defend.

You don't take seriously people who say things about one hit kills in inferno (because you have faith in Blizzard two months from now and saw some youtube videos or something, I mean don't listen to the guys actually complaining about the game they play).

Good for you K. Sorry. But at least for now Diablo 3 is a piece of shit and at least for now I am refreshingly not alone in knowing it. Still. Cheap respecing IS awesome, a pity Diablo 3 is discrediting the concept so fucking badly.

[Voss]

More importantly I think worth noting is - letting people have some semblance of a respec options prevents complete character planning at creation.

Not mandatory is not the same thing as prevents.
Not that I even vaguely understand why you'd want to prevent planning and forethought in the first place.

The d3 system strikes me as uniquely horrible, especially for tabletop games. You have access to everything (so there are no choices and no consequences), and anything that isn't explicitly given to you is forbidden, either in the sense of your class can't do that (forever) or in the sense of 'you need to be so tall to ride' (you get it later).

Wait, what?

So you don't like level-based systems where more options are gained over levels and you don't like a class system where classes do different things?

And you want people to be forced to make a new character every time they want to try out new options?

Hmm, I could have explained it better. Basically it comes down to two main things: the power progression makes no sense: more things are unlocking as you level, but they aren't a progression. They are (in theory) supposed to be balanced with each other, but there isn't any particular reason why flurry strike is higher level than reach strike (I forget the stupid power names). Or why one rune unlocks later than others. So no, gaining non-progressive powers based on level makes no sense, especially when the vast majority are actually shit options compared to stuff that you probably picked up earlier anyway.

Second, D3 is very, very bad for a tabletop game, because there is zero interactivity with the world. It works for an action clicker, but its obviously shit for any sort of RP (because they didn't need to care about that).

Also... when it comes down to it, there character classes don't do different things. They all just kill shit, and the graphics are essentially flavor text.

As for making new characters and respecing, my problem with it is actually the opposite. There is no reason to ever make a new character, because there is nothing the existing character can't do. Every monk is exactly the same as every other monk. That is fucking boring.

[Wrathzog]

Claims like "melee characters can't survive Inferno" are easily proved wrong with seconds of research, so it really makes it hard to take the whiners seriously.

Yeah, like you said, the game revolves around your gear and Melee characters are far more gear dependent than their ranged counterparts. They need to be survivable enough to not immediately explode when they encounter a rare pack with Molten Chains or some other ungodly combination of GOD DAMNIT WHAT IS THIS BULL SHIT and then they need enough offensive stats to actually kill things in a timely manner.

Actually, I could do without about half of the rare pack properties list as a melee guy.

Why did they make the horrid item design choices they made?

My favorite part of being level 60 is watching level 60 White Items drop and realizing that they're still only worth about 5 gold to vendors. They have absolutely no purpose in the game other than to make it harder to pick up Tomes and Gems.
Also, Crafting is basically worthless. Every time I upgrade the blacksmith, I instantly regret it.

[Username17]

Basically it comes down to two main things: the power progression makes no sense: more things are unlocking as you level, but they aren't a progression.

So? The ability to turn incorporeal isn't very impressive at 12th level - about on par with invisibility in terms of defense and mobility. But at 2nd level it's broad spectrum immunity to most level appropriate opposition. At 12th level, it would be totally plausible for Invisibility and Incorporeality to be side by side as mobility/defense options. At 2nd level, it wouldn't. That has nothing to do intrinsically with the abilities, it's just that the counters to invisibility happen to be available ubiquitously to low level enemies and the counters to incorporeality are not. If magic weapons and force effects were given out like candy to orcs while darkness clouds and heavy snow were rarely seen outside epic battle arenas, then the reverse would be true.

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

Second, D3 is very, very bad for a tabletop game, because there is zero interactivity with the world. It works for an action clicker, but its obviously shit for any sort of RP (because they didn't need to care about that).

You'll note that I didn't actually talk about the actual runes or abilities.

I mean, it's a computer game. The actual number of meaningful abilities is always going to be small because programing real abilities instead of number manipulation is a larger investment of programming resources for little pay-off. The plot is fixed so the game has to revolve around loot greed and that means that the combat system only lets certain options work with maxed equipment (which is not happening two weeks after launch).

I'm only actually interested in the overall model they used to hand out abilities.

(Emphasis mine.)

[hogarth]

This is essentially a tautology. E.g. my perfect system involves a system that's perfect.

Except for the fact that the most popular tabletop RPG right now has knowingly included terrible options that are "supposed to suck". So at least applied to TT RPGs, it's not all that weird.

I guess I'm just jaded at K's 537th post along the lines of "Why don't game designers make a game that's like X, except better?"

There's nothing to discuss there. Yes, everything should be better, all the time. The end.

[DragonChild]

This is essentially a tautology. E.g. my perfect system involves a system that's perfect.

Except for the fact that the most popular tabletop RPG right now has knowingly included terrible options that are "supposed to suck". So at least applied to TT RPGs, it's not all that weird.

I guess I'm just jaded at K's 537th post along the lines of "Why don't game designers make a game that's like X, except better?"

There's nothing to discuss there. Yes, everything should be better, all the time. The end.

On another forum,I have been pushing hard for "Some amount of respects are needed", and "Choose abilities, not bonuses" (note that d3 does not have you assign stats like STR/DEX/INT/VIT let d2 did), so I might just be biased, but I really do think D3 is a good example to hold up for stuff tabletop design could learn more from. Likewise, I am also VERY impressed with WoW design, and think that D&D needs to be more like WoW, not less - there's a lot to learn there.

[hogarth]

I guess I'm just jaded at K's 537th post along the lines of "Why don't game designers make a game that's like X, except better?"

There's nothing to discuss there. Yes, everything should be better, all the time. The end.

On another forum,I have been pushing hard for "Some amount of respects are needed", and "Choose abilities, not bonuses" (note that d3 does not have you assign stats like STR/DEX/INT/VIT let d2 did), so I might just be biased, but I really do think D3 is a good example to hold up for stuff tabletop design could learn more from. Likewise, I am also VERY impressed with WoW design, and think that D&D needs to be more like WoW, not less - there's a lot to learn there.

I should clarify. Points #1-#4 are certainly possible to discuss. But point #5 kind of spoils the whole post (like the curate's egg) because it implies that every criticism can be countered by saying "nuh-uh, your criticism only applies to an imperfect system and this system will be perfect!".

[Previn]

Likewise, I am also VERY impressed with WoW design, and think that D&D needs to be more like WoW, not less - there's a lot to learn there.

Can you explain what exactly you think WoW does right?

[Voss]

Basically it comes down to two main things: the power progression makes no sense: more things are unlocking as you level, but they aren't a progression.

So? The ability to turn incorporeal isn't very impressive at 12th level - about on par with invisibility in terms of defense and mobility. But at 2nd level it's broad spectrum immunity to most level appropriate opposition. At 12th level, it would be totally plausible for Invisibility and Incorporeality to be side by side as mobility/defense options. At 2nd level, it wouldn't. That has nothing to do intrinsically with the abilities, it's just that the counters to invisibility happen to be available ubiquitously to low level enemies and the counters to incorporeality are not. If magic weapons and force effects were given out like candy to orcs while darkness clouds and heavy snow were rarely seen outside epic battle arenas, then the reverse would be true.

-Username17

So (and this goes for RobbyPants as well)... the point is it is a level based system that is handing out things that aren't leveled. It isn't holding back incorporeality to make 'heavy snow' relevant at low levels, its holding back three punches that do 60% damage each and pretending that is somehow a bigger deal than one punch that does 180% damage. Or whatever. Its mostly cosmetic and play-style based (dealing with mobs rather than dealing single targets, in this case, and indeed most of the attack abilities break down that way), but it has piss-all to do with character power, which is theoretically expressed by level.

Look, leveling in diablo 3 does three things.

1) It gives you incremental bonuses to your stats. This is meaningless and fairly insulting, since individual pieces of equipment give you higher bonuses than all of the incremental bonuses put together.

2) it unlocks abilities. Now I can understand not wanting to overwhelm a new player with all the abilities at once, and that is fine. But doling out equivalent abilities slowly over a 65 level system just feels rather pointless. Who the hell cares if you multi-punch someone at level 12 rather than level 30? It isn't significantly different than punching people with air or punching a circle that adds a slow effect.

I find it fairly bad system. There are alternatives that are just as good, if not better. XP that goes directly to skills rather than the meaningless levels, or unlocking runes the more you use a specific ability or whatever. Tying it to an otherwise meaningless level system adds nothing to the game beyond the introductory period.

3) Level is a cheap and easy way to tie it to magic items. And since most of the character power is d3 comes from items, this is really the only place it matters. That is what level is really used for in diablo 3: you are not tall enough to ride the epic axe. Grind more.

[K]

Meanwhile K, I notice no defense of the witch doctor giant frog skill in your post. It is perfectly symptomatic of a skill Diablo 3 deliberately made useless undermining what limited choice the skill/rune system provides, and it was clearly built out of underwhelming nerf to back other poor design decisions to do with fucking poorly balanced elite and legendary mobs (which you also didn't defend) which in turn is tied into their poor decisions based on horrendous item drop pacing and clumsily and crudely undermining any form of productive item farming (which you also didn't offer a defence of) which in turn is tied into their singleminded obsession with forcing absolutely everyone into the real money auction house... which you also didn't defend.

You don't take seriously people who say things about one hit kills in inferno (because you have faith in Blizzard two months from now and saw some youtube videos or something, I mean don't listen to the guys actually complaining about the game they play).

I don't respect the complainers because they don't have valid complaints.

Take the giant frog (Toad of Hugeness). It's a crowd control rune that swallows an enemy for 5 seconds, taking them out of play while doing 20% weapon damage each second.

Now if you can't figure out how to use a crowd control spell or know why it would be useful in a game where gangs of mobs can overwhelm your defenses, you are a fucking moron and there really isn't anything to say to you. A few seconds on the forums have people singing the praises of this rune in the higher difficulties where kiting is very important.

Is it the best crowd control? I don't know, but the fact that it works on first-form Belial and most champions and elites does seem pretty impressive.

Getting one-shotted in the highest difficulty? That's because you don't have Vitality or damage resists on your equipment. People who do have these things seem to have no problems farming Inferno solo or in groups.

Some rare and champion packs too hard because they got a specific combo of random traits? Who cares in a game where killing those mobs is completely unnecessary for play?

Rare drops too rare? Grow the fuck up. It's a franchise that has always been about getting loot and killing monsters and you should have known that before you ever bought the game. You also should have known that it takes months of farming to get the best equipment and that the best equipment is needed to do well at the highest difficulties because that's how loot farming games work.

I mean, the basis of most of your complaints is that you don't want to loot farm in a game about loot farming. Can you see how contradictory and retarded that sounds and how it invalidates all of your complaints?

[K]

I guess I'm just jaded at K's 537th post along the lines of "Why don't game designers make a game that's like X, except better?"

There's nothing to discuss there. Yes, everything should be better, all the time. The end.

On another forum,I have been pushing hard for "Some amount of respects are needed", and "Choose abilities, not bonuses" (note that d3 does not have you assign stats like STR/DEX/INT/VIT let d2 did), so I might just be biased, but I really do think D3 is a good example to hold up for stuff tabletop design could learn more from. Likewise, I am also VERY impressed with WoW design, and think that D&D needs to be more like WoW, not less - there's a lot to learn there.

I should clarify. Points #1-#4 are certainly possible to discuss. But point #5 kind of spoils the whole post (like the curate's egg) because it implies that every criticism can be countered by saying "nuh-uh, your criticism only applies to an imperfect system and this system will be perfect!".

I didn't even imply that the game is perfect. I made a general comment about their design philosophy that seems to be respected in their design and offered it as a point to be discussed, and that fact that you thought it was some kind of defense for bad design says more about your attitude than anything else.

You should honestly stop posting here because we talk about game design a lot. This will invariably lead us to talk about aspects of games that we thought were well designed, and that seems to make you bitch like a little girl.

[ishy]

Rare drops too rare? Grow the fuck up. It's a franchise that has always been about getting loot and killing monsters and you should have known that before you ever bought the game. You also should have known that it takes months of farming to get the best equipment and that the best equipment is needed to do well at the highest difficulties because that's how loot farming games work.

I mean, the basis of most of your complaints is that you don't want to loot farm in a game about loot farming. Can you see how contradictory and retarded that sounds and how it invalidates all of your complaints?

Well there are limits to how much you want to farm. And they stated they drastically lowered the item drops because of the auction house. So I can understand people being frustrated if they don't want to use it.

That being said, I thought this thread was more about the design behind their implementation than their actual implementation.

[NineInchNall]

5. A philosophy that everything should be easy and there should be no wrong choices.

[I can't] pick skills randomly and succeed in the very highest difficulty like I was in the beginner difficulty!

These are incompatible.

[NineInchNall]

That being said, I thought this thread was more about the design behind their implementation than their actual implementation.

It was, but the design goals are so noncontroversial that they aren't worth talking about and no one even cares.

[fectin]

I think what you're actually seeing isn't that Diablo is a good RPG, but that Diablo is a polished game. That's leading you to the unfortunately rare insight that a good example of something you're ambivalent towards is always better than a shitty example of something you like.

Put a different way, some people prefer dark beer, some people prefer light. Everyone picks either over beer with piss in.

[hogarth]

You should honestly stop posting here because we talk about game design a lot. This will invariably lead us to talk about aspects of games that we thought were well designed, and that seems to make you bitch like a little girl.

K, I'd argue with you, but there's nothing to argue with in your posts. Your ideas are all along the lines of:

(1) Let's take a random game idea.
(2) A miracle occurs.
(3) Now we have an awesome product!

E.g. your idea for a monthly level 1-20 adventure path that fits into 100 pages (including maps and shit) that sells for $10. Or your idea for running D&D which involves people randomly sending you awesome game material and awesome art and you package it into a book.

[PhoneLobster]

the fact that it works on first-form Belial and most champions and elites does seem pretty impressive.

I was going to say no it doesn't it only works on randomly targetted monsters of the weakest class in the game and specifically doesn't work on elites or higher.

But then I thought hey. MAYBE that was a bug, or lag, or been changed, maybe when I tested it during the massive "fuck you Australia" 400-1200 or worse lag it obscured it's function, maybe when I went to the diablo fans community forums and they all the guys in the witch doctor forum said "it's useless because it doesn't work on elites and above, just take the chicken thing, it works". Maybe THEY were collectively crazy too.

So I decided to go check, log in, take my witch doctor and throw a frog at some elites.

Only the game log in says there is a patch. The auto updater says there isn't. And between the two of them that means I can't even log in.

So touche Blizzard. One up for you and the fan boys. I can't say the guy who hasn't even tried the skill is wrong because while unlike him and virtually everyone defending Blizzard on this game I in fact HAVE tried it in the past I am now incapable of confirming it in the present.

And also incapable of playing the game I paid for. Seems like a win win for Blizzard here. Pure professionalism, their reputation in no way is taking a hit over this one with countless PC gamers.

Some rare and champion packs too hard because they got a specific combo of random traits? Who cares

Er. People who want a playable enjoyable game care. Sorry if you like to be a bitch fan boy and declare everything a thing to be enjoyably and loyally tolerated but some people want more.

Rare drops too rare? Grow the fuck up.

Yeah. Telling people to grow up when we spend enourmous amounts of game play, large swathes of entire play throughs without upgrading our items in a game that is supposed to be all about upgrading your items. yeah tell them to grow up. That's going to totally fix the problem where the specific design decision to make drops of any value super rare to feed the auction house at the cost of making the most basic motivation to play at all fizzle away a good thing, yeah.

I mean, the basis of most of your complaints is that you don't want to loot farm in a game about loot farming. Can you see how contradictory and retarded that sounds and how it invalidates all of your complaints?

Actually your so called defense that "Things that make loot farming crap are good for a game about loot farming" seems distinctly contradictory.

[ishy]

Er. People who want a playable enjoyable game care. Sorry if you like to be a bitch fan boy and declare everything a thing to be enjoyably and loyally tolerated but some people want more.

Are we talking about bugged champion packs here? Like the D2 multi-shot + lightning enchanted ones?
Or just difficult ones?
If the former then yeah it happens and sucks, it'll get fixed eventually. If the latter, not everything in the game is supposed to be an easy cakewalk I assume. Get some better gear and skill and try again.
Or you know, quit and buy Torchlight 2 -

[K]

You should honestly stop posting here because we talk about game design a lot. This will invariably lead us to talk about aspects of games that we thought were well designed, and that seems to make you bitch like a little girl.

K, I'd argue with you, but there's nothing to argue with in your posts. Your ideas are all along the lines of:

(1) Let's take a random game idea.
(2) A miracle occurs.
(3) Now we have an awesome product!

E.g. your idea for a monthly level 1-20 adventure path that fits into 100 pages (including maps and shit) that sells for $10. Or your idea for running D&D which involves people randomly sending you awesome game material and awesome art and you package it into a book.

Seriously, why are you posting here? You don't have any ideas and hate it when people talk about ideas.

Is your life so empty that shitting on other people for talking about ideas fills the days for you?

[deaddmwalking]

Ok, so Diablo III came out and people are playing it.

Several things came to my attention:

1. Everyone has an option for combat control, defense, healing, AoE attacks, single target. Everyone can solo things.

2. Everything uses a mana-like resource that is specific to the class and some attacks add to the pool and some take away. Sadly, they also have timers for some things.

3. Everyone in a class gets all the abilities of that class on a level schedule, but they also get "runes" on a level schedule where you can modify each ability (only one rune active per ability). This makes even two members of the same class often very different since they chose different versions of the same ability.

4. Up to three passive runes that give passive abilities, also from a list that expands as you level.

5. A philosophy that everything should be easy and there should be no wrong choices.

I've been following the thread, and I thought it worth quoting the OP. K doesn't say Diablo III is a game worth playing. He doesn't say it's a good game. He says there are 5 things that would do well in a tabletop game.

Point number 1 - all characters can do all things to some degree - that's an interesting one in my opinion. If everyone can do all things (albeit the flavor is different for each of them) isn't that kinda like one of the worst aspects of 4E?

I haven't played Diablo (1, 2, or 3) so tell me, what do they do and how do you envision that working in a TTRPG.

[K]

I mean, the basis of most of your complaints is that you don't want to loot farm in a game about loot farming. Can you see how contradictory and retarded that sounds and how it invalidates all of your complaints?

Actually your so called defense that "Things that make loot farming crap are good for a game about loot farming" seems distinctly contradictory.

Loot farming games are designed so that people have to play them a lot to get loot.

Why did you even buy the game if you don't like grinding for loot? Did you look at all the previous versions of Diablo and think "hey, this is the version they are going to make easy and it won't have any grinding at all despite the franchise clearly being about loot farming?"