Warlock, 3rd Edition (okay, let's make TOME a complete game)

[deaddmwalking]

I fucking hate Mana points and can prove with charts that they don't actually do the things that people say they want them for. But the reality is that people do like them, and for that reason a mana points class (or several) should be included. It's basically just a system where you get unlimited low level bullshit and strict charge limits on your higher level shit, after all. It's actually fairly trivial to balance such a system against a more traditional charge caster once you can manage the much more Herculean task of balancing the effects of the actual spells being used.

I've seen a system where 'mana' is used to mean spell points, but I think in this case you mean more along the lines of Magic: The Gathering, where you have, let's say, 8 mana available. You can cast any spell that costs less than 8 mana as often as you want (since you always have that available)? Or am I misunderstanding?

When you say you hate mana systems, I'd really like to understand what exactly you're referring to and why exactly you hate it.

[OgreBattle]

I fucking hate Mana points and can prove with charts that they don't actually do the things that people say they want them for. But the reality is that people do like them, and for that reason a mana points class (or several) should be included. It's basically just a system where you get unlimited low level bullshit and strict charge limits on your higher level shit, after all. It's actually fairly trivial to balance such a system against a more traditional charge caster once you can manage the much more Herculean task of balancing the effects of the actual spells being used.

I've seen a system where 'mana' is used to mean spell points, but I think in this case you mean more along the lines of Magic: The Gathering, where you have, let's say, 8 mana available. You can cast any spell that costs less than 8 mana as often as you want (since you always have that available)? Or am I misunderstanding?

When you say you hate mana systems, I'd really like to understand what exactly you're referring to and why exactly you hate it.

Don't that translate to "Die pools, with different colors of dice"?

[OgreBattle]

I was in the mind that things like this would be "It's my own invention" rather than "my humble opinion", is there any strict rule or is this in MHO 'cause it's asking for community input before a project is undertaken.

[DSMatticus]

I was in the mind that things like this would be "It's my own invention" rather than "my humble opinion", is there any strict rule or is this in MHO 'cause it's asking for community input before a project is undertaken.

IMOI is usually for information about works in progress. Discussion of how to do said works is more of an IMHO thing. Like the Cyberpunk Fantasy Heartbreaker threads are here. Because they're just discussions on what a theoretical CPFH should be like design-wise. (That, and plenty of people just ignore IMOI, but nevermind that.)

But yeah, we're also just not very consistent about it. Whatever.

[Chamomile]

I'm pretty sure Frank was talking about Final Fantasy-style MP systems.

[deaddmwalking]

Does someone mind describing how that works?

[Lokathor]

Every spell you have costs X mp to cast. At any given moment your character has Y out of Z mp. If Y is more than X you can spend that many mp and cast the spell.

How you get back mp changes from game to game. In some games you have huge gobs of mp but don't get it back except by resting (Nova-centric). In others you have not so many mp but you get back some every turn (anti-Nova).

[deaddmwalking]

So 'nova-centric' is just like Spell Points from Unearthed Arcana.

If the mana (or spell points) recharge either during the fight or between fights, that's the non-nova version. Ie, if you have 40 spell points at 'full', but you gain 1 spell point per round, you could quickly blow through your spell points casting your spells... If you get to 0 you have to wait 40 rounds to be back to full (though you could continue casting 1 spell point spells every round).

I can see why 'recharging' could get fiddly, but I don't see the downside of spell points that refresh when you rest. I don't usually see a downside to letting someone cast two 2nd level spells in place of a single 4th level spell (for instance).

[DrPraetor]

Wait - when did I propose changing hit points? That was in a different thread entirely.

Anyway, moving on: fighters need resource management, so that fighters can have nice things. If you have resource management, it's possible to give you nice things, and if you don't it isn't. I really think it's that simple.

So the fighter can have a whirlwind attack that is actually decent, if they are restricted to using it only a few times a day. Otherwise people bitch and moan and the fighter only becomes competitive with the wizards (however much we may balkanize magic) when the magicians are low on spells. This is just about the only thing that D&D 4th did right that was a good idea in principle but they fucked it up so badly that entirely unrelated games will be ruined by the collateral damage of their epic fuck up.

So, resource management for fighters. It can be a branch of reconciliation to the 4rries! We're taking D&D 4th and making it even more better, mkay?

I personally don't care how resource management works - Frank makes a good argument (like based on real data rather than pulling things out of his ass) why having only a single resource track, with most maneuvers costing roughly equal, and a manageably small number of special moves, is the way to go. I'm a real scientist, so my hatred for psychologists is deep and enduring, but in this case they've accumulated some actual evidence for their hair-brained conjecture so I'm forced to concede that they're probably right. More than eight or so choices becomes a burden and a slowdown for the game. So let wizards and fighters "prepare" ~6 moves of various kinds and then give them some resource track, ki points or "fighting savvy" or whatever. Personally I like "rare" and "common" maneuvers and then having all classes share resource management, but I don't really care and it can balkanize into eighteen different fiddly systems, as long as the non-magical types get something.

So, Frank, are we gonna do this thing or not?

If we're doing this thing, let's do a write-up on 12 classes, and see how they fall out for your design playchart?

Do we have preliminary agreement on:
Hero (could be "Wanderer"? "Soldier" and then they're grizzled veterans automatically?)
Champion
Assassin
Ranger
Monk
Paladin
Magus (white mage)
Warlock (pyromancer but with hellfire and some demon stuff too)
Alchemist (transmuter with potions, I suppose?)
Necromancer (has no actual necromancy, like this guy? j/k)
Illusionist
Alienist (I've come around on this one)

So, workhorse spells for early levels could be:
Magus - Force Bolt (knocks enemies backwards, delaying their entry into melee or giving the fighters another chance to screw with them when they re-approach), Healing Light, Shield Other.

Warlock - Burning Hands (should not-suck, by setting people on fire and doing DOT?), Stinking Cloud, Imp, Pain Amplification.

Alchemist - Has resource management for his buffing potions which he gets to hand out... acid arrow? Web? Maybe the alchemist gets chemical ammunition and a crossbow, by default? Glitterdust is kind alchemic (you have some glitterdust to throw), as is Grease of course, those are both good low-level spells.

Necromancer - Sleep? Necromancers could also get various dream or even mind control stuff, and be Necrotelepaths/spiritualists or something. So you get animated dead, and you also do seances and hypnotize people with your gaze. You want to be a vampire when you grow up, after all.

Illusionist - Well, the various illusion spells with the illusion rules that you were going to write for book of gears. Color spray? That's a classic.

Alienist - Someone various things that are intrinsically scary or toxic or otherwise provide your debuffing indirectly? I think Alienists should stand around in combat cackling insanely and telling the opposition that they're doomed to futility, while monsters chew on them, and that it suits their nihilistic zeitgeist to tell unspeakable truths during combat rather than actually fighting or casting obvious "spells". But then you have to wonder why the alienists allies doesn't turn into cannibalist frog-men by collateral damage. Also, Alienists could get "Web" because spiders are pretty alien too.

Other stuff you've mentioned elsewhere which requires commitment:
[*] Control on the number of damage-types. Are you doing that? If not, keep in mind that my chronosword does a bonus 2D6 "shards" damage and also does 2D6 "nexus" damage. It's made of pimpsteel, do you have DR/pimpsteel?
[*] Mixed condition tracking, shaken->afraid also flummoxed->afraid etc.. This is of course a big deal for the spells you are handing out, since every spellcaster is going to need some mass-debuff spell, if they are going to have even rough parity.

At one point you had the damage types and the conditions conflated in some complicated correspondence (so "mental cold" damage made you first Slow, then Paralyzed, etc.) but personally I think that was kinda contrived. Don't have strong feelings about it though.

These two things can/should all by defined implicitly by the initial class designs/spell choices, of course.

[Lokathor]

I can see why 'recharging' could get fiddly, but I don't see the downside of spell points that refresh when you rest. I don't usually see a downside to letting someone cast two 2nd level spells in place of a single 4th level spell (for instance).

Because you're not trading a 4th level spell down for two 2nd level spells. You're trading your low level slots up for high level slots. Instead of a wizard with four 9th level slots and then some 8th level slots and on down, you're a black mage with enough mp to cast twenty 9th level effects and then be done for the day.

The problem is that even if you balance the mp costs to effects gained through using it, most people will just spam the same spell however many times they can and that's it. Which is balanced maybe, but it's boring as shit. It's boring to play and it's boring to watch.

[Midnight_v]

Hero = All pc's are hero's to have a class named hero just says absolutely nothing... its freaking horrible.

(could be "Wanderer"?)
Wanderer = doesn't describe anything in any way that any other murder could be. I hate it cause even when I was playing darksouls, everyone was like WTF is a wanderer supposed to be.

"Soldier" and then they're grizzled veterans automatically?
Is the one I actually approve of... it is very limiting to say the least to think of the "Grizzled Veteran" as the only soilder archetype. As mentioned above: Achiles, Hector and the gang were soilders, so was Alexander, So are those young dudes from starship troopers, and Master chief, etc...
The point of that particular slot is to have a Man-at-arms, without saddling him to earth physics bullshit in a magic physics game, and to have a dude who's super human without making it all anime fest, to lessen the impact of bitching universally.
Further it's good classification to have
Soilder,Champion, Berserker. . . most of the warriors we think of fall into one of the catergories.
While the other two don't sound like anything at all that doesn't exclude anyone who isn't a "fighting man" I mean fuck... Harry Potter is a "hero", its just a word that doesn't mean enough.
Also ... berserker, just berserker. etc. etc. etc.

[DrPraetor]

Since the Hero is Conan, he could be a Barbarian, easily enough.

The class could be "Veteran" but you kinda want that to just mean high-level.

But the features of the class are going to be a synthesis of the Tome Fighter, the semi-Tome Soldier, and some more wuxia stuff starting around level 8 to 12 and getting bat-shittier from there.

[Username17]

I can see the argument for having a class named "Hero" and I can see the argument for a class named "Champion", but I find it hard to accept having both classes. They really sound like the same exact thing. I am aware that "wizard" and "sorcerer" really sound like the same exact thing too, but for whatever reason magic classes being split up into arbitrary groups despite having names that are literally dictionary synonyms much better than non-magic classes do. Hero and Soldier is probably the best pair for me, but if people wanted to do Soldier and Champion that would work too. Or even Warrior and Champion.

So, Frank, are we gonna do this thing or not?

That is the big question of course. I am at my best when I have someone that I am collaborating with that I can wargame scenarios with and send drafts back and forth. Like what K and I had when we were writing the Tomes in the first place.

If I could get one to three people together to do something similar for a project, that project would naturally displace other projects until it was done. Right now this week I am preparing for a couple exams (Neuro and Oncology), but this summer I will have more time to write. And really, whether I finish up Asymmetric Threat, Fantastic!, Black Forest, or KSF is largely dependent on what I can get the most help with.

I figure a full game is going to be about 200,000 words. If I had a system fully fleshed out (even if only in my mind) and simply needed to put it to paper, that would take about 3 months for me to write on my own. But of course, in reality it would take longer because if I was wargaming all the scenarios myself that would be pretty time consuming. With a couple people working on it, that time could be halved.

-Username17

[virgil]

I'm just about finished with Parabellum and will have the art for it within a month.

Frank, count me in as someone willing to collaborate with you for the following projects: Teslavania (yes, I'm including my own project as an option), Black Forest, KSF.

[Chamomile]

What does "KSF" mean?

[virgil]

Kentucky Steak Fries

Actually, Kitchen Sink Fantasy. You should be able to find it with the search and get more details than what I can type out in a few minutes.

[Chamomile]

Search turned up nothing. Turns out "Kitchen Sink Fantasy" comes up a lot as a generic term.

[Lokathor]

I could work on Warlock / KSF / WhateverName, but I would highly (in italics even) prefer Asymmetric Threat to be the creation of choice.

As to martial class names, Soldier should be the name for one of the highly trained martial classes. It's probably just because I've grown up seeing american "join the military" commercials on TV, but to me "soldier" is the term for people who don't just fight when they have to, they make a life out of fighting all the time. Also with an implied command structure thrown in there like Samurai has.

I would personally prefer that "warrior" not be a class, and simply refer to "dudes who fight" so that a chief can say that he has 150 warriors at his command when listing how cool he is and stuff.

But what I would really really prefer is to reiterate that if we can only have so many Frank RPGs put out at once, that the RPG we get soonest should be Fantasy Cyberpunk instead of Medieval High Fantasy Kitchen Sink.

[Starmaker]

Search turned up nothing. Turns out "Kitchen Sink Fantasy" comes up a lot as a generic term.

KFRP

[Username17]

Kitchen Sink Fantasy

-Username17

[erik]

Hero and Soldier is probably the best pair for me, but if people wanted to do Soldier and Champion that would work too. Or even Warrior and Champion.

A pair? I was thinking Champion (as I conjure warrior-associations for a Champion more readily than for Hero) as the base Mighty-Warrior class, and Berserker, Hunter, Soldier being the 3 tracks that the Champion could take.

So, Frank, are we gonna do this thing or not?

That is the big question of course. I am at my best when I have someone that I am collaborating with that I can wargame scenarios with and send drafts back and forth. Like what K and I had when we were writing the Tomes in the first place.

I could assist what with my free time as a result of still being regrettably unemployed. However, if this is as DrP initially desired, a plan to complete a Tome-like project, count me out. I really liked the work in the Tomes but the amount of changes I wanted to put into 3e alter it so much that it really is better to start from scratch.

[Midnight_v]

That is the big question of course. I am at my best when I have someone that I am collaborating with that I can wargame scenarios with and send drafts back and forth. Like what K and I had when we were writing the Tomes in the first place.

I have the time. I have the inlclination. I can potentially do this. I'm not likely as smart as most of these people pretend to be. So if you have the patience, I'll put forth the effort.

Starting:

Hero and Soldier is probably the best pair for me, but if people wanted to do Soldier and Champion that would work too. Or even Warrior and Champion.

I'm more comfortable with Soilder and Champion because I can envision them better than hero.
Champion in this sense would be someone with class tracks/powers back by faith in a cause or granted by a cause.
Paladins, Samurai, Knights, etc Fall into this class by default but likely "Monk" could too.
Largely anything with a code, that would lose powers if they break the code, or any servitor of a "Higher Power/Lord" Sometimes Avatars like Krishna would fall here.

Soilder:
Achilles. (But likely anyone in the war of troy.), Spartacus, Dirk J. Vlug, Master Chief.
Basically you get what people thought of as "Fighter" and "Ranger", here

"soldier" is the term for people who don't just fight when they have to, they make a life out of fighting all the time

+1
In my head I find that in a magical tea party world it jus makes sense that Samurai get legendary magic-esque power, BUT I admit Samurai could just be another type of soilder, too. However, it wasn't looked upon that way to the ancient japanese so I do see them as champions. Assuming the lore they ascribed to as being correct for them.

Berserker:
Dudes who wear armore made of bearskins (snort coke) and turn into giant green rage monsters...
They're a thing, I'm all about keeping them.
BearWarriors, Warshapers, Psychic Warriors (form of doom).
Cúchulainn, Kali, Mr.Hyde, Wolfman, Hulk.
Anybody who says: Don't... I'm Possesed by the X spirit. or "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry"
So they get a general rage powers and tracks that let them define where it comes from and how it manifests. Its a moderate to light supernat class. Its also the base "monster class" ala': When you rage you:
Grow in size, claws, tentacles, extra arms whatever. You still have the basic warrior bit going on in that (in tome terms) you get the good bab, and whatever benefits come with that, but you autoqualify for some magic quaities as well (You just have to buy the wilder ones with
leveling "perks" or whatever the new word is going to be.).

[Username17]

A pair?

I din't actually mean to imply that there would only be two non-magical character classes. Just that I feel that Hero and Champion are mutually exclusive, and that similarly Soldier and Warrior are mutually exclusive.

I further feel that you can have a class called "Hunter" or a class called "Scout". I prefer Scout of the two. Berserker and Barbarian probably also can't both be classes, and I think it's clear that Berserker is the better choice.

At a bare minimum, a new fantasy heartbreaker with classes needs to drop with at least 12 classes. Because if it doesn't have more classes than 3e, why not play 3e? Yes, I know that several of the classes in 3e are traps (most especially the Monk), but one of the biggest sticking points of 4e was that it had less classes, it made people reluctant to even investigate it to find out how lacking it was in other ways.

So a simple "4 Martial Classes, 4 Hybrid Classes, 4 Magic Classes" would do fine for me. That would, I think, be a fair minimum effort for KSF. And for that, a class list of:

• Hero (or Champion)
• Berserker
• Soldier
• Scout
• Assassin
• Monk
• Paladin
• Ranger
• Conjurer (Creation and Summon Monster)
• Illusionist (Color Spray and Invisibility)
• Magus (Cure and Magic Circle)
• Warlock (Fireball and Demon Pet)

Would be a fair minimum effort. That wizard list is crazy short even so, and I think it could probably be expanded with the Alienist (Phantasmal Killer and Tentacle Pet), the Enchanter (Sleep and Entangle), the Necromancer (Animate Dead and Dark Grasp), and any of a number of elementalists. However, while you should probably have the "thirty flavors of Wizard in the known world" chart, you shouldn't at any time have more full caster classes actually written up than you have non-casters and half-casters combined.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

I have a very serious reservation about this discussion.

Why are you calling it KSF? That makes no sense, remember it has to be called Tome to piss off Kaelik or else what you are doing will make sense!!!!!

Poor Dr. Praetor, how will he survive if you call your game KSF!

[ishy]

Personally I don't like either the hero or champion name, but champion is slightly better.

Don't really see what you'd call the cure and magic circle wizard a magus either tbh.