Spell lists for everyone!

[CalibronXXX]

That's what power attack is for, objects only have an AC of 5 after all.

[ckafrica]

Then tool up some kind of feat that gives bonuses to knocking down doors, wall and the whatnot and yer set.

But only really fits the theme of a burly warrior not a dextrous one so you still need something for them.

[CalibronXXX]

Warriors that run on skill and agility are either going to have to avoid getting imprisoned in the first place or just use a magic item to get out. There's really no other thematic solution I, or anyone else it seems, can see.

[Crissa]

Fighters neither get bonus strength nor damage nor Power attack (except in Frank's, in which everyone gets Power Attack as a maneuver).

Perhaps it is a better direction to look in, since it allows access to other melee classes to break through as well. But what good is a wall that anyone can break?

-Crissa

[Voss]

Make it some sort of will/determination challenge? It doesn't cut out burly or agile warriors, and it is a fairly common lit or myth trope.

Push through the wall/force effect, and make the speed of progress based on the save, possibly taking some sort of damage if they screw up, but they can push through regardless.

[ckafrica]

Well I guess you could have a variation of spell resistance where it allows you to ignore existing effects by making a level check against the caster or something of the like. But then we need to identify what restrictions to put on this ability to not have them just walking around ignoring everything the mages throw at them

[ckafrica]

I was pondering that maybe we could make spells sort like the ROW feats where they go up in level based on caster level or ranks in spellcraft or something like that. Have less of them that just get better as you level up. could then have some which are appropriate for all classes to have.

Any thoughts?

[CalibronXXX]

1191212239[/unixtime]]I was pondering that maybe we could make spells sort like the ROW feats where they go up in level based on caster level or ranks in spellcraft or something like that. Have less of them that just get better as you level up. could then have some which are appropriate for all classes to have.

Any thoughts?

Okay, I really like where this is going. I envision something like the generic classes thing in Unearthed Arcana, except spell casting is also composed of feats. Feats would be divided by tiers and categories. 3 or 4 tiers of power the top tier being the power level of good spells, the second being the current power of RoW combat feats, the third being either the average power for a non retarded D&D feat or the better half of printed feats, and the fourth tier either being the lower end of printed feats or not existing; anything weaker than that would just be flavor abilities anyway. Categories being (Combat), (Skill), (Spell), and (Magic), maybe some others. Tier 1 and 2 would definitely scale and maybe some, all, or none of tier 3. Each class chassis would get a certain number of feats from specific tiers and categories at various levels and everyone would get a tier 2 feat every 3 levels like normal and maybe a tier 1 feat at first level instead of a tier 2 feat; the human bonus feat would be tier 2.

Well that's the gist of it, off the top of my head.

[Draco_Argentum]

1191058467[/unixtime]]Frank & K have scaled up fighters. I want to scale down spellcasters (though some upgrade to fighters is good; don't get me wrong).

I think their attempt is pretty good even if you want a non-magical theme.

[Crissa]

Yes, but some people want ro delay the wish economy or eliminate the super spells. Or maybe they want a simpler game. It's worth a try.

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

You could just remove the causes of Wish Economy. Namely "Wish".

But the idea of spells evolving with the caster is a bit much for every spell learned; I'd like that idea, especially with the sucky Evocation damages, but I'd prefer it to be a feat for each one. The power of these progressing spells would then be much more than a regular spell (in stages) since it's like being a 3.0 Sorcerer and unable to change the selection.
As another exchange for a spell-feat, the spell ability would be (Su) and very versatile. Like, any element for Evocations, or longer range, free sculpting, etc.

[Cielingcat]

I wish we could just get rid of the whole "feat" thing and just give out abilities that are all roughly just as good as the next, and scale with level. So a Mage is someone who grabs a bunch of abilities like "fireball" and "mind fuck" while a Fighter takes "kick dudes in the nuts" and "cut up mountains."

[ckafrica]

1191214350[/unixtime]]

1191058467[/unixtime]]Frank & K have scaled up fighters. I want to scale down spellcasters (though some upgrade to fighters is good; don't get me wrong).

I think their attempt is pretty good even if you want a non-magical theme.

Not actually referring in a positive or negative manner to f&k upgrade just that fighters do need something. Yeah I think it looks like (as I've never played it) their mods bring the warrior classes to a comparable level to that of a spellcaster but I'm looking for a more toned down version of D&D so I would likely have to do the same to their work.

I think the ultimate problem I face is the guys I play with pretty much expect a level every session or 2 and so we shot up to stupid so fast I could barely blink. I mean we have gone to 3 to 20 since March playing 3 times a month. So I need to work out a way that you keep on getting stuff for your characters to feel like they're going somewhere without turning into broken 15th level. As previously mentioned I'm toying with the idea of E6 but buffering some the stupidity posited in the E6 thread. Or we'll just play d6 starwars for a change of pace after we kick Thay's ass in the final show down next week.

I wish we could just get rid of the whole "feat" thing and just give out abilities that are all roughly just as good as the next, and scale with level. So a Mage is someone who grabs a bunch of abilities like "fireball" and "mind fuck" while a Fighter takes "kick dudes in the nuts" and "cut up mountains."

I don't think the feat term is the problem, simply the way feats have been written so far. I thought when 3.0 came out that it was genius only since I had the misfortune of coming to this board did I become aware that it was as damaged as it is. But it only boils down bad writing of feats themselves not a damaged premise. Call them what you will, selectable defined abilities that lets you choose who your character progresses is cool and I don't want to be tied down by what class I choose. I would rather to have only feats (or whatever we choose to call them if the term vexes people too much. Potayto Potahto)

Yes, but some people want ro delay the wish economy or eliminate the super spells. Or maybe they want a simpler game. It's worth a try.

Yes this is what I have in mind/ what i want in the game. I know not everyone's bag but I have always enjoyed the game most when anybody could be dangerous. that and dealing with spell lists gives me headaches after a few levels.

[ckafrica]

This is in no way a fully formed (or even necessarily particularly well formed) thought but my trains of thought on this spell feat thing kind of go like this:

You have a set of feats that act as your core spells like blast, protect, manifest illusion, heal, curse, summon/conjure critter… basically whatever list of core effects that we can envision as the bases that spells should cover.

They can get more powerful based on your spell-casting power (like blasting for more damage) or have more special bonuses/effects tagged by sacrificing some of the power (so an area effect blast would do less than blasting one dude full strength).

For times a day cast I will suggest to variances a base total spells a day no level limit or a (yes I’m doing it) point system that would assume a certain maxed out spells a day as total points but allow casters to cast less substantial spells if max isn’t called for. Better than having to waste your time figuring out what first level spells to memorize at level 20. (I HATE spell memorization btw) Another option could be the Tome of Battle actions an encounter idea so we get rid of this blow spells and rest nonsense.

I think this would best work on combat based spells. For utility spells we might need another system entirely (not sure) as some spell abilities that are fairly essential don’t really warrant a level variable effect. I don’t really know how they would be handled.

This is somewhat inspired by the spells from Wheel of Time RPG and Elements of Magic (EN Publishing, 2nd Ed.) I’ve playtesting neither of them. But the idea that you have one fire spell that you cast at the level of kablooey required appeals to me and would make my desire to cap magic supremacy workable but could easily be uncapped for those who’d rather to tango with the gods

[CalibronXXX]

I foresee a board group project similar to the Tomes, but instead of being what D&D is, it will be what D&Dshould be. Our, admittedly well informed, perception of what it should be, anyway.

[JonSetanta]

Seems possible. A wiki?

[Draco_Argentum]

1191254983[/unixtime]]Not actually referring in a positive or negative manner to f&k upgrade just that fighters do need something. Yeah I think it looks like (as I've never played it) their mods bring the warrior classes to a comparable level to that of a spellcaster but I'm looking for a more toned down version of D&D so I would likely have to do the same to their work.

Yeah, I was coming from a style angle, rather than a power level one. The tome fighter manages to be really awesome to the point that its possibly broken without seeming like a renamed spell caster.

[JonSetanta]

1191312089[/unixtime]]
Yeah, I was coming from a style angle, rather than a power level one. The tome fighter manages to be really awesome to the point that its possibly broken without seeming like a renamed spell caster.

Oh, the irony.

[ckafrica]

OK well if we are going to run with this we need a list of spell categories that characters would choose from. They should cover broad effects that we want to throw around.

He are some from the Elements of Magic book before mentioned

abjure
curse
charm
compel
create
evoke
heal
illusion
drain
move
summon
transform
dispel
divine
buff
scry

[CalibronXXX]

abjure-Should be Protect, or focus on banishments and have Protect be it's own category.
curse-might as well just call it De-buff.
charm-charm and compel should be Influence
compel-charm and compel should be Influence
create-should cover stuff like Fireball as well as Wall of Force, Major Creation, the travel form of Gate, and Create Undead.
evoke-Should cover things like Summoning and Calling spells, as well as other things that could be considered evoking, maybe teleport effects.
heal-too specific, divide it between transform, buff, and dispel.
illusion-stuff like mirror image and blur, but not invisibiltiy, should probably go in buff, shadow illusions probably shouldn't exist.
drain-don't see a point, stick it in De-buff
move-This should be good, but there'd only be, like, 2 feats you could come up with to fit it.
summon-too much overlap, drop it.
transform-good
dispel-good
divine-probably fold scry into this category.
buff-maybe too general. *shrug*
scry-probably fold this into divine.

[Fwib]

You might want to change 'illusion' and 'buff' to verbs too - can't think what to do with 'illusion' - 'disguise'? - maybe buff should be 'enhance' ?

[edit] I realise 'buff' can be a verb, but it didn't sound 'right' to me.

[JonSetanta]

Naw I'd like Curse over Debuff.

And avoid the word Divine, it's being used to define a source of magic. Not even Divining. How about Insight? Seer? Clarity?

Also avoid Evoke as name. It's a spell school. I'd say just call it Calling, although there really should be definition between spells that create magical expendable duplicates of creatures (Summon Monster X, or as it should be doing) or calling individual beings to you (Planar Ally/Binding). There's a big difference.
Maybe Calling could fit with something telepathic or communicative, but much higher level?

Should Dispel be part of a role of "counterspelling" or one of protection (Abjure)? It can do both but which should it be known for the most?

Teleporting should be like the Psionic definition, rather than Summoning oneself, unless summoned monsters are created instead (and go with appropriate category).

Illusion should split into either Light or Shadow (visual, but different kinds.. Color Spray is NOT the same as Darkness! You can't fool me!) and Sound (also include damaging Sonic effects, along with Ventriloquism, Silence, and the like) according to individual spells.
Classical illusions like Minor Image will be both Light and Shadow, but while Light has stuff like Prismatic spells, Shadow has Invisibility.

[CalibronXXX]

1191476036[/unixtime]]Naw I'd like Curse over Debuff.

As long as the rest of you feel Curse is a general enough term to cover the category I'll not complain.

1191476036[/unixtime]]And avoid the word Divine, it's being used to define a source of magic. Not even Divining. How about Insight? Seer? Clarity?

I disagree, it's the only word broad and properly descriptive enough for the category I can think of. Plus, under this new paradigm we'll likely be throwing out the distinction between divine and arcane magic anyway.

1191476036[/unixtime]]Also avoid Evoke as name. It's a spell school. I'd say just call it Calling, although there really should be definition between spells that create magical expendable duplicates of creatures (Summon Monster X, or as it should be doing) or calling individual beings to you (Planar Ally/Binding). There's a big difference.
Maybe Calling could fit with something telepathic or communicative, but much higher level?

I disagree on the same grounds as my previous argument concerning the term "Divine". In addition we'll probably be throwing out the spell schools as they currently stand under this new generic feat/ability paradigm. For a Calling type effect you'd probably need an Evoke ability that let's you create something like a Gate and an Influence/Compel ability to get something to do your bidding. Or just Evoke them and convince them to help you mundanely.

1191476036[/unixtime]]Should Dispel be part of a role of "counterspelling"; or one of protection (Abjure)? It can do both but which should it be known for the most?

Dispel should work like the various Dispel spells do now, plus stuff like Break Enchantment. Stuff that removes status conditions and attacks a spell directly. Abjure/Protect/whatever should be separate.

1191476036[/unixtime]]Teleporting should be like the Psionic definition, rather than Summoning oneself, unless summoned monsters are created instead (and go with appropriate category).

There's a whole category for spells like this, Move, my comment about teleport maybe going in Evoke was written before I'd gone all the way down the list.

1191476036[/unixtime]]Illusion should split into either Light or Shadow (visual, but different kinds.. Color Spray is NOT the same as Darkness! You can't fool me!) and Sound (also include damaging Sonic effects, along with Ventriloquism, Silence, and the like) according to individual spells.

Classical illusions like Minor Image will be both Light and Shadow, but while Light has stuff like Prismatic spells, Shadow has Invisibility.

I disagree, a lot. There's no need to divide illusion up so much. Remember, we're probably going to use a RoW type scaling feats system for giving out spells. Do you really think someone should have to take 3, or more, feats just to be able to produce a Minor Image?

Also, regardless of whether we call the special abilities feats or not I still support the idea of a 3 or 4 tiered system so we can hand out minor abilities and bonuses without having to attach a major power to them.

[JonSetanta]

I'll clarify on the Illusion: my proposal doesn't require BOTH Light and Shadow to make Minor Image, but that either can accomplish the same. They would then each also have their own specialties, drawing matched spells from what would normally be found in Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation concerning Light and Shadow.
Generating any Image (of the appropriate level, according to caster) would be possible with "either" not "both are needed".

I see there is a need if a caster's flavor is one of banishing the sun-fearing abominations, or that of a skulking tricky assassin.
To have both in the same category is odd to me.

I agree with the tiered system, maybe 3 feats in a chain with each one giving progressively better abilities.
Random idea: first feat gives spells level 1-3, second gives 4-6, third gives 7-9. Maybe one more for "Epic" but I feel this range should be an extension of normal spell slot magic (if used) rather than jumping to the seed-based wackyness of Epic.

[CalibronXXX]

Personally I think it'd be a good idea to get away from spell slots in this re-vamped system. Feat granted abilities should just x/day, x/encounter(or x/30 seconds if you prefer), or at will.

And by tiers I didn't mean to imply feat chains, just that an ability would be rated by power and when you gained a level you'd have specific number of abilities from specific tiers, and usually a specific category([Combat], [Skill], [Spell], [Magic], [Whatever]) to pick from.

As for this

I see there is a need if a caster's flavor is one of banishing the sun-fearing abominations, or that of a skulking tricky assassin.
To have both in the same category is odd to me.

the problem is that you're trying to assign specific flavor to a broad mechanic meant to be flavorably customizable between characters. What a more magey type character would describe as conjuring a globe of darkness over the area a more roguish character would explain as throwing a smoke bomb, even though they're using the same ability. Besides, individual feats probably wouldn't mix shadowy sneaky abilities and stuff like Color Spray or Ventriloquism.

The way I see it there'd probably be a Warrior class that got mostly (Combat) feats and only a hand-full of the other categories, a Rogue or Expert class that got a lot of (Skill) feats, but also a healthy mix of the other types, and a Mage class that got a lot more (Spell) feats than the other two, but not a whole lot else. Keep in mind that everyone would get an extra top tier feat at level one and a tier 2 feat at every level that's a multiple of 3 in addition to whatever their class gives them.

Tier 1 and 2 feats would always scale to level, Tier 3 would sometimes scale to level and sometimes be a onetime bonus or stagnant ability, and tier 4 would never scale; anything weaker than tier 4 would just be a flavor ability that you don't spend character resources on.