Spell lists for everyone!

[ckafrica]

Personally I think it'd be a good idea to get away from spell slots in this re-vamped system. Feat granted abilities should just x/day, x/encounter(or x/30 seconds if you prefer), or at will.

The system in the book i refer to is point based (not that it would have to be adopted) any spell would be 1-20 points depending on what you are trying to do with it. range, duration and effect are all based on how many points you dedicate to that facet of the spell so throw and effect and long range reduces its ability to smash. the max points you can spend on one spell is the levels of spellcaster you have.

I think the Tome of Battle thing of having so many an encounter to use is appealing in concept. I would really rather not have to worry with memorization and have free versatility to use any of my abilities that would fit the task at hand without forethought. I just think of how much time we waste prepping spells before the games right now and I cringe

The way the spell lists work in the book is they are supposed to be combined with an element, alignment or creature type. Some spells obviously don't combine with certain of the categories, (evoke dragon just doesn't work right?) each time you learn a new spell it has to be attached to one of these so you could have abjure fire and abjure good as two separate spells. They have 22 bloody elements as below

The Cardinal Elements: Air, Death, Earth, Fire, Life,
and Water. These are the primary elements on the
equator and the axis of the sphere of elements.
• The Paraelements: Lava, Lightning, Mist, and Ooze.
These elements each are derived by combining two
cardinal elements from the equator.
• The Negative Elements: Acid, Metal, Shadow, and
Void. These elements are the combination of Death
and one of the equatorial elements.
• The Positive Elements: Crystal, Ice, Light, and
Sound. These elements are the combination of Life
and one of the equatorial elements.
• The Unifying Elements: Force, Nature, Space, and
Time. Nature is within the sphere of elements and is
a balanced mixture of all the elements. Space, force,
and time are all outside the sphere and represent the
normally intangible concepts of space, forces, and
time.

Seems a bit too much but the idea is that between them and alignment and creature types you should be able to cover most effects though I would imagine a lot of crossover and some would definitely be more powerful than others (why have abjure undead when you can have abjure evil?). If we wanted to use this as a base we could probably pare it down to a more reasonable list... or just ignore it completely. As said before I've never play tested the system to see how it works.

[JonSetanta]

Nature is an element? ~(o_O)~

[ckafrica]

1191496787[/unixtime]]Nature is an element? ~(o_O)~

I think it is to mantain some kind of coherency for the mechanics rather than an assertion that its really an element. How is darkness and element or space and time. Or water and fire for that matter?

[CalibronXXX]

I'm not too sure about this open ended spell thing, seems like it'd be way too easy for it to run out of control and do things we never anticipated or intended. Personally, I don't support that wacky arrangement of elements either. I see spells being handed out as premade, but scaling, special tricks, like martial maneuvers, rather than something like True Sorcery or, God forbid, the Mage magic system.

Simpler is better IMO.

[ckafrica]

I'm not really advocating exactly what this book is talking (the elements go a bit far and I don't really like elements as central aspects of spells or the universe anyway) about but I do like some of the ideas like why do you need highly specialized spells for everything. We do need some form of division though.

Instead of a spell for each attribute to be buffed and a dozen other spells which also do this but other wackiness to boot have a single way of determining a stat boost. If I want the spell to last all day I can't make it as powerful as having it only last one round. If I need to give myself a 1 round WIS boost of +10 so I definitely see that sneaky fvck thats stabbing all my friends then I got and then I can turn around and give my friends their standard +4 to strength they always bug me for. I mean why not instead of having summon mount allow summon monster give you a lower powered creature for long instead of more of them.

THere is no reason to keep that list I posted as the only spells we want. Heck throw the whole thing out but what exactly do we want our characters to be able to do. I did rather have a smaller list that can be customized in play than having thousands and have to remember what I have available and then decide which ones I might need.

I honestly loved playing Mage; I know its not what I want for D&D as Mages kick everyone elses ass with both their arms and legs tied behind their back but that system gave me freedom that you never get from D&D. But it only works when you have players who agree not to cheese it and D&D is all about cheesing it.

But back to topic. Lets put forth a list of all the things we want spells to do and see if we can bunch them so can have a manageable number that give us versatility without allowing people to break things

[Username17]

I'm in favor of completely arbitrary setting-based magic categories rather than some kind of adjective based categories. If the blast spells are all "Orange Magic" that's one thing, but if the blasts are "evocation" then people will end up side-steping the categories by blasting people with pure death to use their Necromancy or by creating crushing presses of stone to fall on their enemies and shit.

Basically, if game mechanics are assigned arbitrarily to the categories based upon what a spell's descriptive text says you may as well not even have categories. A Death Mage can do pretty much anything as long as he is wearing a skull on his head while he does it.

-Username17

[ckafrica]

Well do we even want to keep the different energy type and if so which?

Maybe we just have the DAMAGE spell that does X amount of damage based on your caster level and then players can flavour it by saying the throw a ball of fire or conjure boulders that fall on people's heads. Its still X damage no matter how you slice it. Or maybe subdivide it depending on how you save against it.

Just thoughts

[CalibronXXX]

Don't get me wrong, I really like Mage too, but it's not even a real system more like a set of guidelines with some examples thrown in.

Now, onto list of things we want spells to do. Illusions that make things look/sound like other things. Illusions that make images/sounds out of thin air. Make people and things invisible; options for separately or at the same time. Silence for either sneaking, sabotaging someone trying to speak, or just making the area quiet. I personally also like the whole mirror image thing. I want to eventually be able to create an entire illusory city or large battle and have people interact with it physically if they fail to disbelieve.

Throw fireballs and lightnings bolts around. Start and put out fires with my mind.

Summon gale force winds and screw with the weather.

Move/Throw people and large objects around with telekinesis, rip buildings and trees in half with TK, catch things that are falling or land myself gently using TK, slam people against walls, the ground, or the ceiling and pin them their using TK.

Bring walls, and eventually whole buildings or labyrinths, of earth and stone out of the ground.

Well I'm bored with that, I'll finish it later.

------

Frank, if the system turns out anything like I think it will then your examples will actually just be down to flavor text, which is exactly what I want. Spells will be specific, probably moderately customizable, abilities acquired from a list of feats, not a big open ended system or massive unbalanced spell list that you can cherry pick from every morning. So when it comes to spells the only thing that'll distinguish your Feat X from the other guys Feat X will be flavor text and maybe where within the modification limits you set it up this day/hour/round/whatever. If you have the feat that lets you fire a line of damage you can describe it as a lightning bolt, a stream of howling damned souls, or you throwing your ax through a bunch of people and having it ricochet off the last guy you hit and fly back to your hand.

[ckafrica]

OK here are some of the effects we probably want covered; no reason they can't be broken down further. Anything its missing?

Alter emotional state (fear, daze, courage, friendliness, confuse, calm, sleep)
Bind creature
Blast (various energy/elements/ferrets dropped on people for damage with possible secondary effects)
Compel creature
Create/shape material (I think this one would need major restrictions like you need pay in equal value to get something of added value)
Cure/Repair
Dispel Magic (reflect, antimagic)
Divination (detect x, learn history of something, translate languages, question the gods/spirits)
Grant AC
Grant DR
Grant Save bonus
Grant SR (?)
Grant Attributes
Grant attack or damage bonus
Grant bonus hit points
Grant extra action
Grant Movement type
Hide auras/alignment/thoughts
Illusions (all 5 senses)
Possession
Reduce AC
Reduce DR
Reduce Saves
Reduce SR
Reduce attribute
Reduce attack/damage bonus
Reduce actions
Reduce movement
Remote viewing
Special Vision
Summon critter (Personally I think this should be more like manifesting astral constructs only good. Keep people from diving through MMs for the perfect monster)
Teleport
Transform creature or object (again needs some major restrictions to work)

Not sure where to stick TK as it works as multiple spell types depending on what you want to do with it. Really its just flavour for how you do the effect.

[JonSetanta]

*head spinning*

Are we really recategorizing the entirety of d20 SRD spells?

[Catharz]

1191521059[/unixtime]]I'm in favor of completely arbitrary setting-based magic categories rather than some kind of adjective based categories. If the blast spells are all "Orange Magic" that's one thing, but if the blasts are "evocation" then people will end up side-steping the categories by blasting people with pure death to use their Necromancy or by creating crushing presses of stone to fall on their enemies and shit.

Basically, if game mechanics are assigned arbitrarily to the categories based upon what a spell's descriptive text says you may as well not even have categories. A Death Mage can do pretty much anything as long as he is wearing a skull on his head while he does it.

-Username17

If categories are assigned based on what something does rather than what it looks like, they can still be useful mechanically.

Nothing says that "death blast" can't be evocation and "fire golem" can't be necromancy. One of the big failures of the D&D school system is that it somewhat tries to do this and fails. If you want meaningful separation, fear and detect undead aren't be necromancy.

That's why I like the psionic triad of Psychometabolism, Psychokinesis, and Telepathy (with the possible addition of Clairsentience). Each is well-defined and exclusive in what it contains (although to allow some abilities you'd need multi-discipline powers).

[ckafrica]

1191567444[/unixtime]]*head spinning*

Are we really recategorizing the entirety of d20 SRD spells?

I thought the idea was to pare down the list to what they actually do. Then when can formulate a static formula of how they work so all illusion spells are created equal as they all follow the same rules. No more spells that blow all others out of the water because somebody liked the flavour of it. Define the spell buy what it does and fit the flavour around it.

And as half that list I put up are polar opposites of each other it should actually be not as complicated as that. So any effects I missed?

[Catharz]

1191559370[/unixtime]]OK here are some of the effects we probably want covered; no reason they can't be broken down further. Anything its missing?

Some of the categories overlap. At the broadest level, you have (1) spells which reduce someone's numbers, (2) spells which reduce someone's options, (3) spells which increase someone's numbers, (4) spells which increase someone's options, and (5) spells which add another actor to the stage (which is almost the same as (4)).

A good example of overlap is the "emotional state" of sleep. Sleep inflicts the following effects: Blind, unable to take any actions, and a penalty to hearing things. 'Friendly' inflicts 'unable to attack the caster' and 'the caster's net bonus on opposed social checks with the target increases'.

If you break things down further, "blind" is a combination of inability to see things at all (reduced options) and a reduction in numbers which normally rely on sight. Basically, you still have the option of attacking the caster (unlike "friendly"), but you no longer have the option of knowing what color the wand he just pulled out is.

[CalibronXXX]

Okay I'm going to go over that list and see if I have anything to add or if I feel the need to comment on something.

Alter emotional state (fear, daze, courage, friendliness, confuse, calm, sleep)-Daze should probably go in Reduce Actions.
Create/shape material (I think this one would need major restrictions like you need pay in equal value to get something of added value)-I don't feel much monetary restriction is necessary as long as we wait until sufficiently high level to let people create permanent objects or shape larger things; what we want to be careful of is stuff like a mage trying to Create Water inside someone's brain.
Grant Save bonus*
Grant attack or damage bonus*
Grant extra action-I think we'd be best off just eliminating this ability from the game entirely.
Grant Movement type-Covers Increase Move Speed too I suppose?
Reduce Saves*
Reduce attack/damage bonus*
Reduce movement-I'm not sure if this is a necessary category, when you can either create impediments or just render your target totally immobile, when would anyone honestly use this?
Teleport-needs to be divided into combat teleportation and travel teleportation; and honestly, do we really need travel teleportation? The only source material I can think of that uses it very often is anime.
*Do you think we can get away with eliminating direct bonuses/reductions to saves and attack, and just cover that with altering attributes?

Additional Categories:
Grant Immunity(includes stuff like not needing to breathe as well as Crit/Poison/Whatever immunity)
Kill/Destroy
Ressurect

[JonSetanta]

ckafrica: looks like you got em all. A few times I thought "wait no, it's missing.." but then matched the concept with one of your categories.

[CalibronXXX]

Hmm...once we're agreed on the list of possible spell actions what's the next step? Do we go ahead and start producing spell feats, divide the categories into subcategories, or something else I'm not thinking of? I've never made something from scratch like this before.

Maybe we should back pedal a bit and try out Frank's game design flow sheet before moving on. We're probably going to have to make like 3-5 games if we want to cover the entirety of what D&D tries to be.

[ckafrica]

I think what we need to do is decide on some ground rules on how spells work.


How do you decide what save if any is used; how about SR?


I personally think we need either one or the other. Either saves are just for mundane effects (a la SW SAGA) and Spell resistance is something everybody has (basically AC for spells) or you save but no SR for anyone

Problem using 3 saves is you can envision many spells using any. Daze could be will, ref. or fort. depending on the flavour. What stops me from casting exhausting daze on the wizard, mind blast daze on the fighter and wind vortex daze on the cleric?

How do we define DC of saves?

I think casters should roll and saves be static (or as I have done before, players roll everything depending on if the are attacking or defending) as I hate that never roll dice as a spellcaster.

But I think DC for all spells should be based on caster level rather than spell level. I can't fathom why high powered spellcasters sleep spell is only as difficult to save against as a 1st level caster (assuming same stats and no extra kit)

Perhaps a new stat like BAB for casting that goes up a different rates depending on if you are a full fledged spellcaster or a "spell trick" person like fighters and the like.

Balancing all possible spell effects
This will take a lot of math first to discover what each effect is worth in relation to each other. Not my strong point.

The is making sure you can't cheese the effects in unfair ways. Example: to try to do more damage than a 20d6 fireball to someone you cast teleport to lauch them up 500ft in the air so they fall for 50d6. teleporting an opponent in a hazardous way should be worth as much as a fireball.

Basic decisions on game mechanic we do or don't want

For example save or die? save or basically die?

can we mix effects and if so how

I think this is cool but obvious a multi effect should be less powerful than a full power focused effect. I think defining once we can define a base value for a unit of an effect than we should be able to put together a method of adding them all together in cool and interesting ways


I'm sure there's more but a start.

[JonSetanta]

Near broke my mind years ago trying to even sort this all. I'll help where I can but those notes were all on paper.

[CalibronXXX]

1191645146[/unixtime]]How do you decide what save if any is used; how about SR?

I don't feel we need to revamp the system too much in this area. IMO spells that directly effect a target should start off allowing SR and a save, the type of save either being chosen at the time you gain the spell or based upon the time measurement you're granted your alloted uses(X/day spell's save type would be chosen at the beginning of the day, X/encounter's save type would be chosen at the beginning of the encounter, ect.[probably be easier and generally more thematic if it's chosen at the time of gaining the spell). It should be within the spell customization guidelines to allow you to make a spell SR=no by weakening the effect a little and making a spell save=none by weakening it considerably.

1191645146[/unixtime]]How do we define DC of saves?

For now we should probably use 10+Caster HD/2+Ability Mod for the baseline save DC, we can adjust this later if we find it needs tweeking.

Saves could be static or not, doesn't much matter to me. For now we'll say saves are static.

1191645146[/unixtime]]Perhaps a new stat like BAB for casting that goes up a different rates depending on if you are a full fledged spellcaster or a "spell trick" person like fighters and the like.

This seems like a really bad idea to me, if this were the case than anyone other than a spellcaster taking a (Spell) feat would not be getting a level appropriate ability out of it. Then again a Mage taking a (Combat) feat would be in the same boat.

I see two, or maybe three, but I don't like the third one, solutions to this problem. Either we allow for a moderate amount of overlap between (Spell), (Combat), and (Skill) feats, or we have (Combat) and (Spell) feats simply scale to level; I'm leaning more in favor of the former. The third possibility is to go fully classless, but I think this setup would dredge up more problems than it would solve; plus we want this to look at least similar to D&D, right?

1191645146[/unixtime]]Balancing all possible spell effects

Ah, yes, the tedious part of the project. When the time comes we'll just have to slog through it and do the best we can.

1191645146[/unixtime]] Basic decisions on game mechanic we do or don't want

Yes, we need to resolve this before we move on, I've already made a few comments when I was reviewing and enlarging your list of possible effects.

1191645146[/unixtime]] can we mix effects and if so how

This is going to get complicated. Let's worry about this later, once we've gotten some of the ground work done.[/quote]

[Username17]

1191614992[/unixtime]]
Some of the categories overlap. At the broadest level, you have (1) spells which reduce someone's numbers, (2) spells which reduce someone's options, (3) spells which increase someone's numbers, (4) spells which increase someone's options, and (5) spells which add another actor to the stage (which is almost the same as (4)).

I'd play this game. Five magic using classes. One of them strengthens and heals. One of them weakens and destroys. One of them puts up battlefield control and gives restrictive curses. One of them moves people around and gives them beneficial transformations. And one of them summons pokemon.

Five mage types, each with a well defined role. You could dress it up any way you wanted, with the various schools of magic having elaborate reasons for why they work that way.

The only one I'm really worried about is the first one, because numeric bonuses are quite often zero in effective actio cost. But considering that the conjurer and the transmuter have a tendency to edge into that as well, you'd have to work something out.

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

So you've got White, Red, Black, Blue, and Green, in essence.

I really do need to start working on that again.

[JonSetanta]

But what if everyone was, effectively, as diverse as Transmuters? These resortings aren't categorizing by style or hidden universal properties, they are sorted by function.
Like different aisles in a grocery store, sorted by type of product rather than brand name.
Same stuff but changed around.

I wonder if K has seen this thread yet.

[Manxome]

There are two tried-and-true ways to prevent excessive advantage from using a combat ability with a duration before the combat actually starts:

1) Put a limit on the magic effects you can have at one time, and design such that you can reasonably expect everyone to hit the limit. (Lots of ways to slice the limits...number, power, per caster, per target, per area, whatever.)

Example: You know how to summon over nine thousand different magical allies in combat, but you can only have one out at a time.

2) Arrange your cost structure such that you pay for the abilities even if you activate them in advance. (Again, lots of varieties: short durations, upkeep costs, linked buff/debuff trade-offs, etc.)

Example: Your buffs last until you choose to dismiss them or fall unconscious, but you lose X mana/round for each one that's turned on.

Another Example: You can turn "defend" mode on and off at will, and while it's on you're resistant to piercing damage, but have reduced movement speed.

[JonSetanta]

I suggest 1 duration spell in effect on a character for every character level. Maybe even 'level +3'.
Player chooses which to drop as they are hit with more.
Detrimental duration effects don't count to this limit.

On the plus side these spells would not expire as long as the character was conscious.

On the side, I'm struggling for an easy way to provide a 'constant buff' rule or feat or option for spellcasters but none work out so well.
One idea was called "sustain magic" which involves something like Divine Persistant Metamagic for all spellcasters just by doubling the slots required.
Another is called "spellbinding", a property of spells themselves to last until swapped out (and the limit active at any one moment is by number of Spellcraft ranks).

Manxome, your #2 didn't work out so well in AD&D Psionics since a single encounter would drain the player of all PSPs (energy) if played to the same power level as a Mage.

[Manxome]

Manxome, your #2 didn't work out so well in AD&D Psionics since a single encounter would drain the player of all PSPs (energy) if played to the same power level as a Mage.

I don't have the faintest idea how AD&D Psionics worked, but I fail to see how that indicates a problem with the general approach.

Or was that just an anecdote, rather than an objection?