Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm looking at Pathfinder psionics and I might be compelled to make a full Psion for a game. Pathfinder psionics pretty much got untouched and in quite a few cases actually got buffed up (Psionic Reformation, for instance, no longer costs experience points and thus gives them all of the benefits of clerics given more off-time). The downside of course is that you're playing psionics.

Going through the Pathfinder SRD, I don't see anything that really counters the meme of 'Pure-Pathfinder casters have more raw power but are more boring than their 3.5E counterparts'.

[CapnTthePirateG]

How about demoniac? Get possessed by demons. Lose no caster levels. Ignore drawbacks by casting protection from evil on self.

[Foxwarrior]

Look at the Warrior's Surge, Lago, and be happy.

I killed off the rest of my party as a PF Warrior Wilder once (purely mental actions FTW). Abusing Psychic Reformation to pretend to alternatingly be a Druid, Cleric, and Wizard was fun.

[ishy]

I'm going to assume by pathfinder psionics you mean Psionics unleashed from dreamscarredpress?
Are you building just from that book or are you also looking at their new one?
Then yeah some psionic powers were boosted and some were nerfed.
What kind of things do you want to do with your psion?
Imo, the egoist for sharing some buffs around or the generalist look like the best options.

[Lago PARANOIA]

As I alluded to in another thread, Pathfinder made the cleric archer much more powerful. Just some of the highlights:

1.) Domains are a lot better and even added some classic new ones. Our old standbys of Travel and Trickery are even more gonzo than before. Repose is so strong that it by itself is a reason to play a unarmed cleric. If you're playing a blaster cleric, Void is the best domain ever published. Even better than anything in 3.5E, and I'm including the Spell, Charm, and 3.0E Madness domain. Make all of your vs. will spells require an additional save versus confusion, overland flight, AND the planar binding spells? Fucking hell yes. The Wolf domain gives you Improved Trip for free, allows easier flanking, and allows 'real' flanking to add a +WIS bonus to attack rolls. The Construct subdomain of Artifice gives you Animate Objects several levels early as a spell-like ability.

The Unarmed cleric needs especial mention. For some reason, Pathfinder really loves clerics attacking with unarmed strikes. A lot of the really rad cleric feats requires Improved Unarmed Strike as a base feat. Unarmed Strikes are a lot better, too, because the amulet of Mighty Fists actually lets you have +0 Flaming Weapons.

2.) They upgraded the hat of disguise, or rather offered an alternate version. It's now an always-on Alter Self. This is important for the unarmed cleric, because they can easily add two natural attacks to their routine.

3.) The Samsaran alternate racial trait lets you poach spells off of other peoples' lists. This includes the Ranger and Paladin spell lists. Yes, I would like the ranger spells which makes my next fired arrow automatically have a critical hit.

4.) Crafting items are easier in Pathfinder. Yes, you do need to make skill checks, but you no longer have to meet caster level requirements unless explicitly stated AND they no longer take up experience points.

5.) While the animated enchantment for shields is gone, Pathfinder lets you use your shield with a bow and arrow. So while it's yet another fighter nerf

6.) While Manyshot is no longer done as a standard action, you instead have to be content with getting an extra attack. You don't add precision-based damage, but clerics never cared about that.

7.) Some really nice cleric archetypes have been added. While they're certainly not autopicks (almost every one requires setting fire to a domain slot) they do things like hand out bonus feats. I really love having Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Shield Focus as a level 10 Crusader. I'll understand if you don't want to give that up, though, having the Travel (Trade) and Void domains are too goddamn sweet to give up on.


Yeah, cleric archers in Pathfinder do lose some things. Divine Power and Righteous Might getting the nerf that it did does hurt. Losing Heavy Armor Proficiency also hurts quite a bit, too, especially since Mithril Full Plate no longer provides a bypass. But really, pound-for-pound, unless you introduce crazy-go-nuts books into the mix like Unearthed Arcana, the Pathfinder cleric archer is a lot stronger and more well-rounded than the 3.5E counterpart.

[hogarth]

It looks like Paizo and Dynamite Comics have been doing a media blitz with regards to the upcoming Pathfinder comic book. Here's an interview with an interesting quote:

Pathfinder is a role-playing game and fiction line enjoyed by tens of thousands of fans around the world. It’s an intricate and robust fantasy world that draws upon classic sword & sorcery genre roots and pushes them into new territories.

Ah, how D&D has fallen -- from "millions" to "hundreds of thousands" (is that greater than "millions"?) to "tens of thousands".

[hogarth]

5.) While the animated enchantment for shields is gone, Pathfinder lets you use your shield with a bow and arrow.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean a buckler, that hasn't changed since 3.5.

[Lago PARANOIA]

You don't keep armor bonuses in 3.5E from attacking with a hand that's using a buckler, which you arguably need to do with bows and arrows. Not unless you have Improved Buckler Defense or whatever that feat was from Complete Warrior. Pathfinder lets you keep the bonuses. You still suffer a penalty to attack rolls, though.

[hogarth]

Please point out the part of the rules that you're talking about.

Paizo PRD's buckler description

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

3.5 SRD buckler description:

Buckler
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

You can’t bash someone with a buckler.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Whoops. I thought that the 'This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.' was part of the benefit, not contradictory flavor text. The FAQ even says as much.

Thanks, editors!

[hogarth]

Whoops. I thought that the 'This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.' was part of the benefit, not contradictory flavor text.

It's not flavour text. If you use a 2-handed weapon, you take a -1 penalty to attacks if your weapon is not a bow or crossbow, and you take no penalty if your weapon is a bow or crossbow. Whichever weapon you use, you still lose your shield bonus when you use it.

I agree that it's a bit awkwardly worded, but I have no idea why you thought there was a difference between 3.5 and PFRPG.

[RobbyPants]

The Unarmed cleric needs especial mention. For some reason, Pathfinder really loves clerics attacking with unarmed strikes.

They read the story about your monk.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I agree that it's a bit awkwardly worded, but I have no idea why you thought there was a difference between 3.5 and PFRPG.

Because 'without penalty' implies that you wouldn't lose your shield bonus to AC. As in, this is a bow-specific clause.

[Seerow]

I agree that it's a bit awkwardly worded, but I have no idea why you thought there was a difference between 3.5 and PFRPG.

Because 'without penalty' implies that you wouldn't lose your shield bonus to AC. As in, this is a bow-specific clause.

The "without penalty" is pretty clearly referring to "without penalty to attack rolls" (because if you use a two handed melee weapon not only do you lose the AC bonus, you also take -1 to hit on top of it).

[Lago PARANOIA]

Quibbling about "without penalty" (does it mean that you avoid the bad side effects, or only things that fit the game-specific meaning of 'penalty') is like going into 4E D&D's effect shenanigans. And that's a road I do not feel like going down.

Just keep in mind that this was confusing enough to have an FAQ answer.

[hogarth]

I agree that it's a bit awkwardly worded, but I have no idea why you thought there was a difference between 3.5 and PFRPG.

Because 'without penalty' implies that you wouldn't lose your shield bonus to AC. As in, this is a bow-specific clause.

I understand the ambiguity, but the sentence is exactly the same in 3.5 and PFRPG.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Except for that clause in italics added at the top of the page. That's what made me and the FAQ writer think that 'without penalty' means 'you keep your shield bonus'. Seriously, Pathfinder adds a ton of little asides or revisions that change things you took for granted; that's not out of character for them. And it's not always nerfs either.

[hogarth]

Except for that clause in italics added at the top of the page. That's what made me and the FAQ writer think that 'without penalty' means 'you keep your shield bonus'.

WTF?

How do you get that switching "you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round" to "you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn" has something to do with bows? Or are you just pulling an F.T. where you're willing to argue that hot snow falls up rather than say "Gee, I guess I just misread it"?

[Lago PARANOIA]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/buckler

Because it says at the top of the page that bucklers allow you to use bows without penalty.

This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.

It's just contradictory flavor text. Because whether you mean 'without penalty' to mean that you don't suffer from the standard game-definition of penalty or the English vernacular definition of penalty, it contradicts what the paragraph side.

[ishy]

It isn't like Lago is the first person to be confused about this, it is fucking unclear.
The text should have been cleaned up before going to print.

But about Lago's list, you appear to have items / races etc from some really obscure sources, do many dms allow those?

And the hat of disguise takes the same slot as your standard wisdom booster, so you probably want to add it to the item increasing the cost by 50% and with the alter self change, I'm not sure it is worth it?

- Edit: and if you can bullshit your dm enough, you can make a slotless amulet of mighty fists (double the price) or you can add a the properties of a +1 one to it for the +50% price increase.
So you can wear multiple cheap ones.

[hogarth]

Oh, I get it! You're just trolling.

You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.

You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.

I have no idea why you thought there was a difference between 3.5 and PFRPG.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/buckler

Because it says at the top of the page that bucklers allow you to use bows without penalty.

This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.

[Kaelik]

Hogarth, don't be a dumbass.

He obviously read the Pathfinder rules and compared them to how he remembers the 3.5 rules without rereading them.

People do this all the time.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Has anyone taken a look at the advanced race guide yet?

-Some of the monstrous races get to do that thing that human sorcerors do where they can add more spells to their spells known, but only from certain descriptors.

-Power creep, race wise. Drow sorcerors with the seducer trait, the alternative favored class, and fey or infernal bloodlines can roam the land abusing the enchantment school. Kitsune can do this too, but they don't get spell resistance.

-I haven't seen the rules for build your own race, but I expect them to be just as stupid as the last time we reviewed them.

[Blasted]

Most of the rules seem not to have changed much from the playtest.
Using the BYO rules is ridiculously broken. So no change there.
TBH the bonuses available from choosing your race from the pregens seem reasonably limited, so after level 1 I don't think that there's a lot to be gained from selecting one of the pregen types (with some obvious exceptions).

I haven't looked over the racial backgrounds in detail yet.

[Kaelik]

So...

Went to a "Pathfinder" game thread that specifically said "Ask before you use any 3rd party classes."

Posted a list of classes, Totemist, Favored of Vecna, Storm Lord, Force Potentate.

The response:

"No, those look like they are made for D&D not Pathfinder."

What what the the fuck fuck??

How does that make any sense? What kind of 3rd party material do you allow if you don't allow 3rd party material made for 3e?

This is the biggest problem with Pathfinder. Why the fuck was I promised backwards compatibility and then told by your fans that we can't allow 3rd party material made for D&D, but we can use 3rd party material made for Pathfinder.

I'll get back to you if the DM changes his mind after I pointed this out to him.