Oh, I get it now, Fighters /should/ have spells.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:10 am

Like in Might and Magic 1?

Edit - The fast typer gets the bazinga

Duke Flauros · Post by **Duke Flauros** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:05 am

Whipstitch wrote:If by that you mean knights got along OK because they were the logical choice to be manning the laser blasters, sure.

Yeah. The knights stopped being knights really when they got the blasters. In seven, as I recall, the Knights were the only class to have GM bodybuilding and armsmaster, which made them feel more like SPHESS MAHRINES. Shame they didn't put the guns in 8.

Whipstitch wrote: So... Might & Magic I then? The very first Might & Magic game has a crashed alien spaceship with disintegrator rays and even the whole "world" is built by a different group of aliens who have a robot army. This sort of thing was pretty common in the 70s and 80s. Science Fiction and Fantasy were considered the same genre, and a lot of fantasy stories were set on Earth either in a forgotten age or in an age yet to come. So the Dying Earth nominally happened in the far future, as did Creatures of Light and Darkness. And D&D picked up on that, Oerth (Greyhawk) was nominally Earth in the far future and you can find relic technology and crashed spaceships with disintegrator rays and shit.
In the 90s, people put their feet down on that kind of thing more and more. Science Fiction and Fantasy diverged more and more (Stargate not withstanding), and stories like Beastmaster 2 were less accepted.
-Username17

Ah. I wasn't around at that time. I only played 6, 7, 8, and 9 and only beat the first three of those. I'm one of them there whippersnappers from the younger generation.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:31 am

Plus fucking one

I love it when someone takes time out from bitching about stuff that doesn't work and proposes something that DOES work.

This works. Write us up some sample weapons please.

Thank you RobG, but its not about the weapon. Thats the thing to remember, its not just like the old mythology thor, but also like marvel thor, because you have a weapon that not event he hulk can pick up and thats signifigant. So really what you'd end up writing up is a class that really we could even make a facisimile of the regular 3.5 fighter that gets access to magic via his weapon. Its not even a stretch of the imagination in a magical world for that to happen.

@Arxybez,
A big portion of the fight that people are having in many of these cases about non casters is fluff. We can take the barbarian and call it the "Berserker" and allow access to spellls and equally powered effects. We can look at a paladin and say "this guy gets his power from GOD" and let him have level appropriate effects. . .
So the fighter, I read your post and to a certain level you have to understand how much the argument "Sounds like a gadgeteer" is so much like "Too anime" the ultmate argument is "I don't like the idea because of the fluff". I don't mean that to be offensively, thats my thought on the matter. I've said this before and maybe theres NOT going to be an answer that pleases everyone but here's the situation as I see it again.

If you've decided to keep the FIGHTER in any recognizable form a high levels he win invariably ends up in 3 maybe 4 spots.

The Protagonist: aka (The Tome Fighter)
Fighter is a class that you take at low levels specializes in face stabbing things supergood, but because he's the protagonist, he gets awesome endless powers that fuck up peoples shit forever, and allows him to keep swording and/OR occupy you long enough to figure out: Wow, this guy is totally using his will power to fuck shit up with that magic ring he's got. Let me see if I can't distract him and (Take it/cut off his hand)
The Tome Fighter is the protagonist in all those fucking novels we read because of things like Active Assault and "Foil".

The Gadgeteer: aka.. I AM IRON MAN
This guy, you know who the fuck he is. . . sometimes he's Doc Savage, sometimes... well apparently, a Time-Traveling Thomas Edison, but in RPG's you don't fuck with this guy. He has an artifact sword... he has an artifact level tech suit/armor set... that he SHAT out with his own brilliance.
That or he killed the guy what shat it out... killed him with kung fu...
Seriously though, his power is that he has the best toys, and he "CHOOSES" swording/punching you do death because it looks cool ...(it is an artifact sword you know...)

The Transcendant:
"You know when I first started adventuring, I could barely clear out rats in basements, with this sword, course that was before I was inducted as a Black Cloud-Jumper."
This fighter can literally, be the son of the dirtfarmer with a wooden sword. All that matters is that at some point in his travels he starts getting superpowers.
Under this model the guys a fighter but in our terms he trades out his "Protagonist Powers" for Organizational, Ritual, or inherited: "Super Powers" in strict D&D sense he "prestiges out" or takes an "epic Destiny"
in the end though he eats a piece of a leviathans heart (or whatever) and is now funtionally immortal... But more importantly he's still swording things except now he's resistant or immune to most forms of damage (except from silver which damages him normally), and moves faster than a speeding bullet.... Yay.

The Anime/Wuxia ~ Fighter:
Unless you've somehow managed to avoid pop culture for the past 20+ years you can think of at least 1 example of this. Hell you've played the tome of battle or argued about it, and you get the idea, that you're powered essentially, by whatever power the monk uses. Your pc has a type of magic that "isn't" magical but has effects that are completley magical. The charles ATLAS superpowers fall under this the same way but without flash typically, also atlas powers fall short of dimensional travel while anime-ists do not.

Each one of those situations are unpalettable to someone, I got to the point where I recognize they all have drawbacks, and benefits, but the issue is more one of "I don't like the fluff", well fuckall. No matter what someone's going to hate the fluff.
I'm sure we can make a fighter that fits each of those archtypes in 1 way shape or form and people will still hate it.

So yeah, I think you can at least codify the shittty situation in which the fighter is bequethed a artifact sword. We can actually play as thor, and let that class be fighter, but no mattter what happens someone's going to be like screw that.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:50 am

Is that significantly different from letting fighters cast Magic Weapon (CL=character level) as a swift action?

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:09 am

fectin wrote:Is that significantly different from letting fighters cast Magic Weapon (CL=character level) as a swift action?

Sigh. The way it was supposed to work was giving horizontal exposure, instead of vertical magic weapon numerical bonuses.

Assuming that we're looking at making a gadgeteer you can play it that way, but moreso that you can do all the things that mjolnir can do. So if you want to cast storm of vengence or black tentacles as your power then sure thats fine. Etc etc. whtatevers relavant and when.
Cause thor can't fly on his own, or planeshift or any of the things he's known for in the comics. Though in the ultimates its a bit better because he acutally has the harness too.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:04 am

fectin wrote:Is that significantly different from letting fighters cast Magic Weapon (CL=character level) as a swift action?

It's a lot more like giving a 3.5 Fighter a 3.5 Intelligent Item that casts spells as a Sorcerer of his level for free.

If the fighter loses his weapon, he is fucking not a real character, and as long as he has the weapon, the weapon is the real character.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:20 am

Kaelik wrote:
fectin wrote:Is that significantly different from letting fighters cast Magic Weapon (CL=character level) as a swift action?
It's a lot more like giving a 3.5 Fighter a 3.5 Intelligent Item that casts spells as a Sorcerer of his level for free.

If the fighter loses his weapon, he is fucking not a real character, and as long as he has the weapon, the weapon is the real character.

I clicked this, to see what disparaging bullshit you had to say, so I am not suprised it disparaging bullshit.
Why would anybody be amazed that such an idea would come up in a thread that suggests giving fighters spells?
What you describe is what I was mentioning earlier, but it'd be the same thing as taking the wizards spellbook(s): final destination.
You're not even original in your complaining. I mean any people with real sense recognize that taking a fighters "Magic sword" is a bad deal under any paradigm that doesn't give him alter reality at whim.
So yes, "yes" a thousand times the gadgeteer would be worthless without access to his gadgets, but thats a "no fucking shit, kaelik" situation. Which is why you get clauses like "...if he be worthy" and the calling function of mjolnir so you can make it come back to you etc.
There are a mulitude of methods that can mechanically fix the fighter, some of them still let you be something that is vaguely similar to the idea of DMF. However, no matter what you come up with there's going to be some asshole, to come along to say "nu-uh! thats a stupid idea", or "I don't like that fluff!" well fuck those guys. Seriously, at somepoint you either make multiple versions of the "Fighter" and/or accept people aren't going to accept what you do no matter what.
Kaelik kinda proves it. Keeping in mind he's of the crowd that says "No fighters ever!" so he's clearly biased, but it illustrates that no solution is acceptable to some.

So among other options you give the fighter an (semi)-intelilgent weapon at level 1 that has sorcerer casting and only functions for the fighter whose attuned to it (kicking in at after x levels of Fighter class).
Which is to say you can actually PLAY as the mighty Thor, but instead of dm pity you actually get to pick the spells of your bonded sword.

Of course we can do it better, fluff wise, dress it up, make it so that the power of the weapon is coming from the fighter, instead of the magic put in a sword by a wizard somewhere, but thats the rub for many people, how do you stomach the fluff. How? Write good fluff.

Theres' a lot of other options too.
You can take the wuxia boys, the uhmm Warblade for instance? Adding actual spells to the manuever list, for instance. You can't do all of them but when I think about it somehow they suggested an arcane swordsage so you can totally give these guys spells they're already set up for it.

You can do it like 4th edition, or the tome knight: Swordsman is a class that is x levels long then you prc out. So you get lots of ways to go really, deciding which is best.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:37 pm

Midnight, stop being a crazy person.

He asked if it's like letting the Fighter cast MW. I pointed out that it is not and gave the best 3.5 example. I did not say that it is terrible because you can take his sword away, I did not say that it was terrible at all.

The fact that you find an accurate explanation of your idea disparaging is a problem with your idea.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:24 pm

My bad here, I should have asked more clearly.

Is there any reason that fighters being able to level up their weapons is a better end result than fighters being able to directly power up weapons they have? Either one solves the ancestral weapon problem, but one requires a whole new subsystem.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm

fectin wrote:My bad here, I should have asked more clearly.

Is there any reason that fighters being able to level up their weapons is a better end result than fighters being able to directly power up weapons they have? Either one solves the ancestral weapon problem, but one requires a whole new subsystem.

Both require a whole new subsystem. Either the Fighter gets a bunch of class features that you have to write, or the weapon gets a bunch of class features that you have to write.

The problem that Midnight's system is supposed to solve is that he is trying to invent a system that:

1) Allows Fighters to be real characters at high levels.
2) Does not upset the grognadia force of "But that's Wuxia/Anime, and therefore bad!"

So, the point is that the weapon providing all the powers can in fact do both those things, were the fighter having abilities that power up his weapon cannot.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:50 pm

If you honestly think grognards wouldn't be offended by the Fighter powering up any weapon he holds into an artifact level weapon, I don't know what to tell you.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:47 pm

I'm pretty sure that xp tracks on weapons is going to offend grognards anyway.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:08 pm

Giving the fighters anything that they don't already have is going to offend grognards. Fucking mentioning that there is a problem AT ALL offends grognards. Don't make a fighter class at all. For all the shit you'll catch for not having one it'll be less shit than you'll catch for having a fighter class and making it do anything interesting.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:17 pm

Seerow wrote:If you honestly think grognards wouldn't be offended by the Fighter powering up any weapon he holds into an artifact level weapon, I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe... But I actually think the idea is shit, so I don't care. Anything which takes as a premise, "We need to do something in a way that makes grognards happy" is per se retarded.

But I can plausibly believe that an Artifact Sword might not piss of grognards since they have been being not pissed off by giving their fighters artifact swords that turn them into real characters for years now.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:27 pm

MGuy wrote:Giving the fighters anything that they don't already have is going to offend grognards. Fucking mentioning that there is a problem AT ALL offends grognards. Don't make a fighter class at all. For all the shit you'll catch for not having one it'll be less shit than you'll catch for having a fighter class and making it do anything interesting.

Yes, but telling people who want to play Sword Guy that they can't, but instead have to play the Magic Dildo and its henchman, the Catcher, is pretty much guarranteed to offend anyone who actually wants to play a character who is good at fighting.

This isn't a solution, it really is just 'here is an artifact sword, shut up.'

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:37 pm

I'm actually at the point where grognards doesn't really matter.

There are people who don't want the wuxia fighter who are not grognards. It shitty of you to attempt to paint anyone who disagrees with the fighter you've chosen as "Grognard".

Aryxbez for instance feels like this is unsatysfiying cause he wants the powers to come from the fighter. I know for a fact that someone out there is going to be like "wtf? So now the fighter casts spells", blah blah bla. . .

The problem that Midnight's system is supposed to solve is that he is trying to invent a system that:

1) Allows Fighters to be real characters at high levels.

Well, is that not the goal of the thread?

Mguy: So get rid of the fighter... well you could concivebly have a game that doesn't include that guy. Like polymorph, the fighter one of those things that the answer is "too hard, give up".Thats no slight against anyone but at this point we can very well say "accept wuxia" cause the tide of people accustumed to fighters w/build in magic is larger than the opposition.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:40 pm

Voss wrote: Yes, but telling people who want to play Sword Guy that they can't, but instead have to play the Magic Dildo and its henchman, the Catcher, is pretty much guarranteed to offend anyone who actually wants to play a character who is good at fighting.

This isn't a solution, it really is just 'here is an artifact sword, shut up.'

spoilar4sz

Not directed just as Voss, but all the haters who dislike the notion of a class that uses a weapon as their focus for funneling their powers.

I have no particular problem with a class being all about its super weapon from which they get their powers, so long as it is understood the weapon is bonded to them and it isn't easily separated from them or it is easily resummoned, whatever. It's no worse than that a Wizard relies upon their spellbook to generate spells daily.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:01 pm

Voss wrote:
MGuy wrote:Giving the fighters anything that they don't already have is going to offend grognards. Fucking mentioning that there is a problem AT ALL offends grognards. Don't make a fighter class at all. For all the shit you'll catch for not having one it'll be less shit than you'll catch for having a fighter class and making it do anything interesting.
Yes, but telling people who want to play Sword Guy that they can't, but instead have to play the Magic Dildo and its henchman, the Catcher, is pretty much guarranteed to offend anyone who actually wants to play a character who is good at fighting.

This isn't a solution, it really is just 'here is an artifact sword, shut up.'

This proves my point:
Okay voss. . . then how bout anime powers? You get to do spell like things through martial "not magic" powers then?

Cause as I said before, SOMEONES gonna NOT LIKE X answer....
One of the prolbems is that the fighter class is a generic everyman expected to catch all these concepts that aren't entirely worth of writing a whole classs for.

Not directed just as Voss, but all the haters who dislike the notion of a class that uses a weapon as their focus for funneling their powers.

I have no particular problem with a class being all about its super weapon from which they get their powers, so long as it is understood the weapon is bonded to them and it isn't easily separated from them or it is easily resummoned, whatever. It's no worse than that a Wizard relies upon their spellbook to generate spells daily.

+1
It's a class that is mimicing Thor, and frankly king arthur in some small way. If your weapon is worth naming and you don't want to run around in a dungeon till you find the "Salamander's fire trident" this is the way you'd go.

If you want to have some mystical martial style then use the Tob? Figure out how best to give them relevant world shattering magics at what level, and add said things.

However... that shit where you are high level threats and you only power is "I'z figtyz guud" just doesnt' stand round here. High level threats in most cases are about "Solving x problem" not "Hitting it till it falls down". So you have to be able to planeshift, fly, survive on the hostlie plane, detect truth, locate object, see the future, stop time, as well as being able to "stop army" and by no means is that an exaustive list.

I'm not saying "Here's a aritfact sword shut up" i'm saying there IS not solution that will please everyone, but having mjolnir, allows access to the game in a way that they want.
Some want anime powers, hell I love the tome fighter, and I like having protaganist powers.

All of those soultions are valid, but there isn't "1" definative solution thats going to solve it when it comes to powersourcing, because there really is MORE than 1 concpet Vying for attention.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:09 pm

MV wrote:It's a class that is mimicing Thor, and frankly king arthur in some small way. If your weapon is worth naming and you don't want to run around in a dungeon till you find the "Salamander's fire trident" this is the way you'd go.

Well, no. It's a class to mimic people like King Arthur or Aladdin who are literally just random dudes if you take the precious away.

People like Thor can actually wrestle frost giants, travel from planet to planet, and do all kinds of other crap whether they have their spiffy hammer or not.

-Username17

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:13 pm

But wizards are commoners with a special pet if you take away their book. Is that not a fair comparison?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:27 pm

Then talk about clerics instead.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:35 pm

Clerics are screwed a good portion of the time if they lose their holy symbols.

How about monks, and how much better than fighters they are because they never get caught without their gear?

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:36 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
MV wrote:It's a class that is mimicing Thor, and frankly king arthur in some small way. If your weapon is worth naming and you don't want to run around in a dungeon till you find the "Salamander's fire trident" this is the way you'd go.
Well, no. It's a class to mimic people like King Arthur or Aladdin who are literally just random dudes if you take the precious away.

People like Thor can actually wrestle frost giants, travel from planet to planet, and do all kinds of other crap whether they have their spiffy hammer or not.

-Username17

Haven't heard much from you, but its good to know you're monitoring the thread somewhat.
You're wrong about the important stuff I think, frank.
Comic book thor can do fighter things himself w/o Mjolnir, but thats it. Asgardians, level appropriate stat bonuses, and are super fucking hardy, which let them do the fighter job, but thor is really just a fighter, and I mean fighter in the bad 3.5 way, he actually can't fly, without it, niether can hogun the grim or balder, until they get in vehicles or have mounts and what not. Traveling from world to and all that type stuff is hammer based.
Mytholgical thor and all the asgardians had a rainbow bridge, to get them from place to place, but they didn't have many if any stories where they flew. Loki was a full caster and could turn to fire, and shapechane in other ways, etc... but he was a full caster and as far as the stories go iirc... Odin, and Loki were the only full casters depicted, they had some partial casters, but really its was just odin and loki, ah and Hel.

From the wiki:

Thor is a superb hand-to-hand combatant, and also skilled in armed combat, excelling in the use of the war hammer, sword, axe and mace. Thor possesses two items which assist him in combat: the enchanted Belt of Strength, and his mystical hammer Mjolnir. The first item doubles Thor's strength and endurance[157] while the second is used to control his weather abilities; flight; energy projection and absorption; dimensional travel; matter manipulation and the most powerful of his offensives, the God Blast (which taps into Thor's life force),[158] the Thermo-blast,[159] and the Anti-Force (which counteracts another force).[160] Using Mjolnir by throwing in the desired direction and then holding on to the handle's leather loop, Thor can also fly at supersonic speeds in Earth's atmosphere and travel faster than light in space. When Thor has to transport companions and/or objects to a destination by himself, he has a chariot drawn by two huge mystical goats called Toothgnasher and Toothgrinder that can fly nearly anywhere he desires almost as easily as with Mjolnir.[89] He can throw an object out of Earth's atmosphere using his strength,[161] and throw his hammer to Asgard from where it will return.[162]

Not to say that he isn't a badass outsider also. . . but the fact that anyone worthy can use mjolnir and get thor powers without thor's personality... let you know its the hammer "In comics"

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:44 am

Isn't Thor the guy who drank from a magic cup linked to the seas and managed to lower the sea level noticeably by drinking from it? And who raised an animal from the dead with his own magic powers?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:20 am

Parthenon wrote:Isn't Thor the guy who drank from a magic cup linked to the seas and managed to lower the sea level noticeably by drinking from it? And who raised an animal from the dead with his own magic powers?

Yes. Thor uses resurrection effects to feed his companions by repeatedly killing animals, eating their flesh, and then raising them from their bones. He does this because he apparently has resurrection at-will but doesn't have create food and water. Also because he thinks small.

Also he seriously wrestles the concept of old age to a stand still. And fishes up Gyrados The World Serpent using only a master rod.

-Username17