Skyrim: thoughts?

[Voss]

Well, you can't really join them either. You just run a couple quests with some mooks jumping in front of your attacks and then the uniforms on the guards in a few cities change. But at no point do you really get any benefit or suffer any consequences for picking someone to side with.

Even though helping the Stormcloaks win should mean that the empire* falls apart and humanity gets overrun by Elves That Are Better Than You. Especially if you finish the dark brotherhood storyline.

*what is left of it, anyway. The lizards are pretty much doing whatever they want to the dark elves, the three southern provinces all belong to the elves, and the Empire is really just Daggerfall, Skyrim, the Imperial Province and ...eh, whatever the Redguard province is called.

[Istred]

Oblivion, incidently. Ironically, a game more or less completely set in Oblivion, as the name of the game indicates, might have been a lot more interesting.

I think you mean the part of it seen in Shivering Isles - the base game's one was: "hell with lava and demons"...

[Darth Rabbitt]

Well, you can't really join them either. You just run a couple quests with some mooks jumping in front of your attacks and then the uniforms on the guards in a few cities change. But at no point do you really get any benefit or suffer any consequences for picking someone to side with.

Eh, I haven't finished either faction quest yet, but that's good to know, as now I won't be disappointed.

Oblivion, incidently. Ironically, a game more or less completely set in Oblivion, as the name of the game indicates, might have been a lot more interesting.

I think you mean the part of it seen in Shivering Isles - the base game's one was: "hell with lava and demons"...

Shivering Isles was what I was hoping vanilla Oblivion would be like.

[crasskris]

I think you mean the part of it seen in Shivering Isles - the base game's one was: "hell with lava and demons"...

Lava and demons is still better than hills and knights. But I agree, Shivering Isles was almost a return to form. I just thought we were talking vanilla Oblivion.

[Lokathor]

I helped the Empire each time I played, because you can't let down Colonel Tigh, but at one point i decided "well let's try the stormcloak side" and did that one.

I felt sooooo shitty after the battle of Whiterun from the Stormcloak side. Everything is on fire, and everyone is dead or wounded, and it's basically all your fault because you're helping the LOTR nazis.

[Istred]

Lava and demons is still better than hills and knights. But I agree, Shivering Isles was almost a return to form. I just thought we were talking vanilla Oblivion.

It's as generic as knights and hills. I've mentioned SI since I can't see the vanilla Oblivion realms as something interesting/not generic.

[Ted the Flayer]

Even though helping the Stormcloaks win should mean that the empire* falls apart and humanity gets overrun by Elves That Are Better Than You. Especially if you finish the dark brotherhood storyline.

I got the idea that was going to happen anyway. Helping the Empire replaces half the jarls with random people no one in the hold trusts, and the fact there was a civil was was the thalmer plot. Either way, Skyrim is weakened and the elves have an advantage in the region. That is, until the goblins falmer come out of their hidey-holes and take it over.

But yeah, Jarl Stormcloak is a douche. If you talk to enough people, you find out (in addition to the whole racism thing):

-Ulfric helped the Silverbloods take back Markarth from High Rock, who are treating the native Bretons horribly (while the Empire is doing no such thing to the Nords. They seem kind of douchey, but not nearly as bad as the Thalmor are to everyone, or the nords to the Bretons of Markarth )

-Torygg was planning to lead the jarls to break away from The Empire ANYWAY. If Ulfric, you know, ASKED him for help instead of stabbing him to death, there'd be no civil war.

-If you examine some of the records in the Thalmor Embassy, you find that Ulfric Stormcloak was, for all intents and purposes, brainwashed by them to start shit.

I wasn't satisfied with the lack of options to oppose the Thalmor in the game. I would have written the game so you could in fact drive them out of Skyrim, maybe with a satisfying "We'll get you NEXT TIME!" while they fly away in their jet-pods.

[crasskris]

It's as generic as knights and hills. I've mentioned SI since I can't see the vanilla Oblivion realms as something interesting/not generic.

What made Morrowind interesting - visually, at the very least - were, among other things, the architecture and the flora/fauna. The weird buildings and especially plants of Oblivion (the plane, not the whole game) took me back, I guess. But I agree, fire and brimstone and demons aren't the height of creativity.

[crasskris]

Even though helping the Stormcloaks win should mean that the empire* falls apart and humanity gets overrun by Elves That Are Better Than You. Especially if you finish the dark brotherhood storyline.

I got the idea that was going to happen anyway. Helping the Empire replaces half the jarls with random people no one in the hold trusts, and the fact there was a civil was was the thalmer plot. Either way, Skyrim is weakened and the elves have an advantage in the region.

On the other side, if you finished both the empire and main quests, you are the guy or gal who kicked major ass in the name of the empire, and happen to be the first dragonborn since Martin Septim, and the first dragonborn since Tiber Septim to take on evil dragon gods. Speak of a recommendation...
...especially if you finish the Dark Brotherhood quest.

Which is why I found Dawnguard kind of disappointing in scope and theme.

[Istred]

What made Morrowind interesting - visually, at the very least - were, among other things, the architecture and the flora/fauna. The weird buildings and especially plants of Oblivion (the plane, not the whole game) took me back, I guess. But I agree, fire and brimstone and demons aren't the height of creativity.

Ah yes, Morrowind architecture... My favourite was always the Telvanni one... Damn, I've spent a lot of time playing with that tileset...

the first dragonborn since Tiber Septim to take on evil dragon gods.

I may be forgetting something, but when did Tiber fight dragon gods?

[crasskris]

But yeah, Jarl Stormcloak is a douche.

One of the things that amused me the most about the game is that the same instant Bethesda ditches the attribute system and its implications, they introduce the Stormcloaks as a somewhat sympathetic faction.

For three major releases, Bethesda had black people that are among the most stupid and weak-willed of all the races, but really good at hitting things.

And now that implication is gone, they include a group of white guys with a love for norse symbols and a hatred for a multicultural government they view as weak and controlled by spineless, corrupt bureaucrats. And those white guys prefer to banish, ghettoize or outright kill anyone of a different skin color and/or mindset.
And they are cast in an at least as sympathetic light as the opposing faction.

It's almost as if Bethesda is doing this stuff on purpose, just to see if someone notices.

[Ted the Flayer]

Yeah, that bothered me as well. They lost the points I gave them for allowing all humans a range of skin tones, you could be a dark-skinned Nord or a light-skinned Redguard, and then you get to Windhelm and OH DEAR...

[crasskris]

Ah yes, Morrowind architecture... My favourite was always the Telvanni one... Damn, I've spent a lot of time playing with that tileset...

Telvanni was awesome. I still remember hitting the screenshot button like a tourist when I first visited the council hall...
Although plain Redoran had its charms, too.

I may be forgetting something, but when did Tiber fight dragon gods?

Ah, sorry. Tiber was just a conqueror - I haven't finished the main quest yet, saving choice bits for later, and just assumed Tiber was one of the heroes taking Alduin on during Alduin's Bane.

[Voss]

Which is why I found Dawnguard kind of disappointing in scope and theme.

What is the theme for Dawnguard? The only impression I've gotten is you can be an even better emo, glittery bitey-boy, perks for furries, crossbows, and dragonbone weapons that should have been in the game at launch.

And something about snow elves that makes _no sense_ if taken at face value. Unless they are dead snow elves.

[CapnTthePirateG]

I wasn't satisfied with the lack of options to oppose the Thalmor in the game. I would have written the game so you could in fact drive them out of Skyrim, maybe with a satisfying "We'll get you NEXT TIME!" while they fly away in their jet-pods.

Yeah, murdering every justiciar you see just isn't enough.

[Ted the Flayer]

It really isn't. Not for me anyhow.

[Darth Rabbitt]

It really isn't. Not for me anyhow.

Nor me.

[Voss]

I wasn't satisfied with the lack of options to oppose the Thalmor in the game. I would have written the game so you could in fact drive them out of Skyrim, maybe with a satisfying "We'll get you NEXT TIME!" while they fly away in their jet-pods.

Yeah, murdering every justiciar you see just isn't enough.

Cheh. More than a few times they decided to try to unilaterally murder me. Sometimes after dialogue (usually consisting of 'We know you worship Talos!' 'I don't.' 'You do! Die'), but occasionally they just started summoning crap and throwing lightning at me.

I could have lived with not being able to promise my character's soul to half-a-dozen Daedric Lords simultaneously if I had been able to interact with a meaningful Thalmor subplot instead.

[MGuy]

Yeah, that bothered me as well. They lost the points I gave them for allowing all humans a range of skin tones, you could be a dark-skinned Nord or a light-skinned Redguard, and then you get to Windhelm and OH DEAR...

I could never get past how, in the beginning of the game, you are set to be executed by imperials for no fucking reason then, a few minutes later they basically set you up to decide who to side with. Seriously you could have had the Imperials at least say they were going to put you in holding to try to sort things out then have the dragon attack in time to let the Stormcloak escape but noooooo.

Other than that I hate just about everyone in the game. Hearing "Hey why don't you conjure me up a warm bed?" For the 50th time in an hour made me want to set the whole of skyrim on fire.

[crasskris]

I could have lived with not being able to promise my character's soul to half-a-dozen Daedric Lords simultaneously if I had been able to interact with a meaningful Thalmor subplot instead.

Sometimes quest designers for CRPG are weird that way, ignoring the interesting to focus on a weird side quest or bland main quest.

Arcanum, for another example, had a rather generic "thou art the chosen one" main plot. But there was a very interesting side quest in which you revealed a gnomish conspiracy that established rape camps to breed half ogre bodyguards. And then the quest came to a grinding halt once you learned that secret.

[Aryxbez]

Yeah, murdering every justiciar you see just isn't enough.

It really isn't. Not for me anyhow.

Nor me.

Nor I, even if my efforts don't feel wasted so far though.

And it at least tried to go back to the moral ambiguity of Morrowind, where you could justify (in-character, if not out of character) joining or not joining any of the political factions and genuinely believe in why you were helping them

then again, the Thalmor are not a joinable faction anyhow, and I think they're going for that angle) and really want one of the Skyrim expansions to be a chance to really take them down more than massacring a base or two.

Dammit I miss levitating, even if I completely understand why it was taken out.

Really for Skyrim, I feel like there's hardly any actual "in-character" roleplaying possible, as opposed to Fallout: New Vegas. I felt the aformentioned game handled Factions a little bit better. Yes, I'm aware they dropped the ball on Caesar's Legion, designers know this, and was due to time and design constraints unfortunately.

It seems implied they'll dabble in Thalmor DLC, where get to actually have some impact on that state of affairs (hopefully). Yeah, it's pretty obvious as we can tell, they wanted them as the "hated by everyone" Faction, that ye just murder on sight. Seems like a wasted opportunity to not let players join them, what kind of quests and like think go down if they let players be a Thalmor? One thing about em though, they had wickedly awesome looking coats.

As I understand, ye couldn't actually do much while Levetating? I recall the Gaming Den even had a small debate to how it wasn't for combat applications so much as to run away or something.

I'm really fucking hoping that the next Elder Scrolls is either in Akavir (unlikely) or Black Marsh (significantly less unlikely) since flavor-wise both are rather mysterious and awesome-sounding.

Actually, I discussed this with a friend about it, how looking at all the material, it seriously would be Perfect material for Skyrim DLC! You'd have variety of new enemies and whole other politics to deal with. Hunderds of variations of Monkey creatures (Demo Gorgon anyone?), tons of asian/Akaviri equipment for people to adore, Vampire Nagas who raise goblin tribes so to EAT THEM (and once Ate DRAGONS). Even a main antagonist "Tosh Raka", a Tiger Dragon, for the Dragonborn to defeat, so to absorb his soul for TIGER DRAGON powers! (hell maybe become one even). Additionally, could put some extra benefits for being a Khajit dragonborn, and it'd be the best DLC for Elder Scrolls by far, in my mind.

Oh, and Black Marsh could be cool too, Argonians long due for some attention (were crocodile PC's anyone?).

I'm actually playing (modded) Morrowind right now,

As for the next Elder Scrolls, I want it in Elsweyr.

What Mods would you recommend for any future users wanting to get in on the Morrowind experience? Figure listing them here, even in a spoiler block could be quite useful (or just link it somewhere, wherever really).

Lastly, god yes, I've been dying to see that place, nevermind Skyrim pronunciation of it sounds very dumb (figured it was "Else-weer" or something, not a crappy pun). This is easily the number one place I'd be interested seeing getting explored, tons of Khajit tribes, sages with hair longer than themselves pouring down their bodies, and even perhaps some Skooma variations (found it sad got errata in Skyrim, whereas it was AWESOME in Oblivion at least, play a trope Khajit unarmed combatant on Skooma...and just wreck entire cities). Otherwise, a close second, if not tied, would in fact, be Akavir, it's far too awesome not to!

[Darth Rabbitt]

Re: Civil War: Hadn't started the quests, so I didn't realize how minor it was.

Total fuck up on my part.

Re: Thalmor: Yeah, totally need a DLC to fight them.

Also, they dress exactly like Lucius Malfoy (to the point where me and Shrapnel were watching a Harry Potter movie and kept on saying Thalmor slogans whenever he appeared,) it helps that the Thalmor are basically the Death Eaters.

Then again, he dresses really cool, so I suppose that's a compliment.

Re: Caesar's Legion: That's Obsidian for you.

Can't release a finished game for their life (see Kotor II)

Fortunately, New Vegas is much more finished than that, even if I preferred Fallout 3 (having to wait on the Main Quest because it ended the game was frustrating compared to Elder Scrolls titles or Fallout 3 where you could do the main quest at any point without ending the game.)

Re: Akavir

Think there's way too much for it to be just a DLC, it should be its own game.

Maybe if it were as big as Shivering Isles.

Maybe.

Re: Levitate

I thought it worked pretty well with fireballs, although it's been a long time and it might have sucked really bad, and I just thought it worked well because of how high level I got in that game.

Still miss it as a utility spell.

[Nachtigallerator]

re: Morrowind

I recall Destruction magic scaling really, really badly in the unmodded game, so you'd probably want to use a bow or crossbow while levitating. With the added benefit that physical damage is never going to reflect and get you killed by your own best attack.

Also, Levitation had two chief uses. The first one was as a combat platform (build a long-duration spell with 1 pt magnitude) the second was for mobility in traversing these silly mountains all over the isle (build a long duration spell with 1 pt magnitude, then add Boots of Blinding Speed).
Personally, though, I've always preferred a 100 pt., 2sec Jump spell with an Amulet of Slowfall for travelling. Much funnier.

As far as Mods are concerned, there was some pretty unique mod technology in Morrowind. The full functionality of the MW vampire mods hasn't been replicated in any other TES game, as far as I know, and neither was the conceptually interesting Lich Mod. For more general purposes, there's lists like this one. Depending on the character and desired amount of cheesiness, the optimal setup is very variable, though, so I can't give general advice, except for getting some graphics replacers.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Bethesda's attempts at being morally ambiguous haven't been terribly well-done, in my experience. They tend to lean on "This quest has two or more outcomes, all of them pretty explicitly shitty, and we probably didn't give you any real way to figure out what would happen." I mean, I dig that not every quest can end in sunshine and roses, Lose/Lose situations get old fast and I hate being made to feel like a shit-lick because I tried to do right by people and got hit by the law of unintended consequences.

[Kaelik]

As I understand, ye couldn't actually do much while Levetating? I recall the Gaming Den even had a small debate to how it wasn't for combat applications so much as to run away or something.

That's wrong. Levitate instantly wins against 99.99% of all enemies. (Well Levitate + Bow or Magic.)

That doesn't mean it's bad, in fact, it's hella fun, but it's definitely for combat applications.

What Mods would you recommend for any future users wanting to get in on the Morrowind experience? Figure listing them here, even in a spoiler block could be quite useful (or just link it somewhere, wherever really).

Well, for Elder Scrolls games, mods need to be sorted into categories:

1) Graphic updates. I personally don't give a shit, but most people find this essential.

2) Leveling mods. You can skim these and pick which ones you like, but basically, anything that increases stats based on skill gains without a level up screen is good enough to be exactly what it should have been to begin with.

3) Added content. This comes in lots of forms, dungeons, castles in the sky, new items. It's largely superfluous for anyone who hasn't played the game yet.

4) Overhauls. Probably not necessary for people new to the game, but might be really good. For example, FCOM/OOO for Oblivion makes the game a better experience. There are probably similar things for Morrowind, but frankly, I don't have any right now, and while I could probably find some... Not worth my time for this purpose.

Also, sort of targetted Overhauls, like something that changes how archery works or something.