Hello all: I've initiated contact with a gaming group in Chicago and am trying to get some 3.5 going. Since the community here seems to be 4E and pathfinder-centered, at least the community with easily findable websites, I figure 3.5 itself will be a tough enough sell that the whole crazy matrix of Gaming Den enhancements would be overwhelming. So the challenge I'm setting myself is, how can I balance stuff out enough that no one can suck noticeably in mid-level dungeon-bashing with the least amount of added or changed rules text? Here's what I'm thinking:
PHB
Bard: gets Sorcerer progression and spell list
Cleric
Druid
Rogue
Monk: Replaced by Dungeonomicon Monk
Wizard: unchanged
Other
Warblade
Duskblade
Warlock (gets an invocation every level)
Swordsage (gets full BAB)
Incarnate (3/4 BAB, d8 Hit Die)
Totemist
Beguiler
Prestige Classes:
Mystic Theurge: requires 1st-level arcane spells and 2nd-level divine spells
Eldritch Knight: requires martial weapon proficiency and 2nd-level arcane spells
Anything really critical I should add, or anything that goes too far? Share your thoughts.
Orion's Lightning-Quick 3.5 Patch for public consumption
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Josh_Kablack
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Re: Orion's Lightning-Quick 3.5 Patch for public consumption
Orion wrote:H how can I balance stuff out enough that no one can suck noticeably in mid-level dungeon-bashing with the least amount of added or changed rules text?
7 word houserules wrote: Core books only. Maximum level of 6.
Although if that's too limiting, I myself am partial to just removing all the classes on either extreme of the power curve and replacing them with homebrewed alternatives. That does require a bit more salesmanship, but it only actually effects players who choose those classes.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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List of things that are (relatively) nice, fill some kind of hole, and may be amenable to small fixes (assumes someone already using optional subsystems from WotC books): psion and psychic warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook), binder (Tome of Magic), crusader (Tome of Battle), hexblade (Complete Warrior, quasi-official fix), shaman (Oriental Adventures), spirit shaman (Complete Divine), halo knight (Mind Unveiled, by Dreamscarred Press), marksman (Untapped Potential, by Dreamscarred Press).
I generally support the society mind and worldthought medic existing, but won't quite recommend them because they're complex. (If it matters, both can be found in Complete Society Mind, while the former had debuted in Untapped Potential).
You probably need something stupid simple to play, ideally named "barbarian" (there being arguments for either something like a PHB one with all saves good and halved rage dice, or for something like a RoW one with somewhat nerfed damage and saves - not because I think the intermediate balance point is better, but because it'll likely be swallowed easier), and anything at all named "fighter" (likely a PHB one with a feat/level and more skills).
Also, beguiler and druid could go further than acceptable if well-played, but given that it seems to be a dumbass-rich area, it shouldn't be a problem, to the point that someone may think one or both needs improvement.
I generally support the society mind and worldthought medic existing, but won't quite recommend them because they're complex. (If it matters, both can be found in Complete Society Mind, while the former had debuted in Untapped Potential).
You probably need something stupid simple to play, ideally named "barbarian" (there being arguments for either something like a PHB one with all saves good and halved rage dice, or for something like a RoW one with somewhat nerfed damage and saves - not because I think the intermediate balance point is better, but because it'll likely be swallowed easier), and anything at all named "fighter" (likely a PHB one with a feat/level and more skills).
Also, beguiler and druid could go further than acceptable if well-played, but given that it seems to be a dumbass-rich area, it shouldn't be a problem, to the point that someone may think one or both needs improvement.
Last edited by Bigode on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Orion's Lightning-Quick 3.5 Patch for public consumption
If that's really what you want then I'd say use the tier system. It doesn't have a lot of fans around here but it does exactly what you requested.Orion wrote: how can I balance stuff out enough that no one can suck noticeably in mid-level dungeon-bashing with the least amount of added or changed rules text?.
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...You Lost Me
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Well a fair number of those classes are more powerful than others. The bard, wizard, cleric, druid, beguiler, and monk all outclass your totemist, rogue, swordsage, warblade, and warlock and severely outclass the incarnate still.
If you want something easy, you pick either high-balance or low-balance, and you pick some classes, then do standard feats and hope your players aren't dumb.
If you want something easy, you pick either high-balance or low-balance, and you pick some classes, then do standard feats and hope your players aren't dumb.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
Well, that's basically what I'm doing, save that I'm trying to bring under performing classes up to an appropriate tier with simple math fixes. Oh, and that my ranking is mainly about the ability to fight monsters without embarassing yourself, rather than about story power, versatility, or brokenness.
clerics can do just about anything... so make everyone clerics and add a bit more options.
Cleric Adventurer!
2 good saves
d8 HD
6 skill points (any skills) +1 bonus for domain skills
trapfinding comes with search
UMD goes with all the other classes to the graveyard
light armor prof, all simple weapon profs, +1 martial
spells learned as wizard, from cleric/druid/wiz list. + domains
no spell failure, no divine/arcane distinction
casting stat chosen at character creation Int, Wis or Cha
dump turning replace with option of:
A) Familiar + Wizard feats (metamagic/crafting, scribe scroll)
B) Animal Companion
C) +1 Fighter Feat every level, plus all martial weapon profs.
That oughtta do er as a really quick and dirty mod.
Cleric Adventurer!
2 good saves
d8 HD
6 skill points (any skills) +1 bonus for domain skills
trapfinding comes with search
UMD goes with all the other classes to the graveyard
light armor prof, all simple weapon profs, +1 martial
spells learned as wizard, from cleric/druid/wiz list. + domains
no spell failure, no divine/arcane distinction
casting stat chosen at character creation Int, Wis or Cha
dump turning replace with option of:
A) Familiar + Wizard feats (metamagic/crafting, scribe scroll)
B) Animal Companion
C) +1 Fighter Feat every level, plus all martial weapon profs.
That oughtta do er as a really quick and dirty mod.
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...You Lost Me
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There's no real simply math fix to things like the warblade. To bring them up to Wizard-level, you would need to give faster maneuver scaling (and then what do you do next level?) and all maneuver options (what do you do for other classes?). A similar thing for MoI, except even then you can't bring them up to par because Incarnum is crappy.Orion wrote:Well, that's basically what I'm doing, save that I'm trying to bring under performing classes up to an appropriate tier with simple math fixes. Oh, and that my ranking is mainly about the ability to fight monsters without embarassing yourself, rather than about story power, versatility, or brokenness.
Annd... I might play that Cleric game, if I could put Charisma to something useful.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
I lost the post when sending and my laptop battery was at 1% so I did an even quicker and dirtier re-write for that post.
My 3e all full-casting classes project was dumped partly because having my 2nd son was far more demanding on my free time than the 1st, and when I finally had the time to get back to it I found that it was a pain, and really just having an all-cleric party was a simpler fix.
Obviously you could start adding more complexity in options, but the more you do, the less simple it becomes.
You could throw down option D where you get all Monk abilities. Evasion and the hodgepodge of other abilities would be nice without being too awesome, I reckon.
I didn't bother throwing bardic music, paladin schticks, wildshaping, rage mechanics or sneak attack because too weak, too strong, or too blah. Then again, Familiar+MagicFeats is rather weak.
My 3e all full-casting classes project was dumped partly because having my 2nd son was far more demanding on my free time than the 1st, and when I finally had the time to get back to it I found that it was a pain, and really just having an all-cleric party was a simpler fix.
Obviously you could start adding more complexity in options, but the more you do, the less simple it becomes.
You could throw down option D where you get all Monk abilities. Evasion and the hodgepodge of other abilities would be nice without being too awesome, I reckon.
I didn't bother throwing bardic music, paladin schticks, wildshaping, rage mechanics or sneak attack because too weak, too strong, or too blah. Then again, Familiar+MagicFeats is rather weak.
Re: Orion's Lightning-Quick 3.5 Patch for public consumption
Hey that's not that far from me depending on what side of chicago you're talkin' about.Orion wrote:Hello all: I've initiated contact with a gaming group in Chicago and am trying to get some 3.5 going.
Not too far (about an hour away). I don't live in chicago myself, I live in Gary, right next door. I'm not too familiar with all the areas in chi town so I can't help you find a group.
On a completely unrelated note whatever happened to your racial redux thing? I was archive diving and tripped over the halfling/gnome entries. Did you ever finish that?
On a completely unrelated note whatever happened to your racial redux thing? I was archive diving and tripped over the halfling/gnome entries. Did you ever finish that?