Pathfinder Is Still Bad

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:31 pm

tussock wrote:The obvious reading is that all summoned projectiles have any spell cast on the container, like what it says. So you fire ten bullets a round, it summons ten bullets. The summoned ammo all has Named Ammo cast on it. Yay, a spell multiplier!

Yeah, but Named Bullet doesn't work that way. You don't cast Named Bullet on a container of projectiles, you cast it on a single piece of ammunition. It also wouldn't make all the ammo in the container magical if you cast regular magic weapon on the container instead of greater magic weapon, which your interpretation says it should.

the spell says

"you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell."

Not cast any spell you want on this container and poof instant extra spells, yay!

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:50 pm

I don't see the connection between your statements. You aren't getting 'any free spells' You're getting exactly what the text you quoted says explicitly: all projectiles this spell (AA, presumably) conjures are affected by the spell (which would be align, gmw, or named bullet.)

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:55 pm

My point is exactly this:

Named Bullet is NOT "a spell that affects projectiles, like Align Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon" and therefore the Abundant Ammunition has absolutely no effect on anything enhanced by Named Bullet, just like it would have 0 effect on anything enhanced by (normal) Magic Weapon. It's that fucking simple, and the intentional obtuseness here is getting goddamn annoying.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:44 pm

DMReckless wrote:My point is exactly this:

Named Bullet is NOT "a spell that affects projectiles, like Align Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon" and therefore the Abundant Ammunition has absolutely no effect on anything enhanced by Named Bullet, just like it would have 0 effect on anything enhanced by (normal) Magic Weapon. It's that fucking simple, and the intentional obtuseness here is getting goddamn annoying.

And you are being an idiot. Lago of all people dealt with that a long time ago.

If you cast Named Bullet on one projectile, then cast it again on a different projectile, then Named Bullet is clearly a spell that effects multiple projectiles.

There is no requirement that it be a spell that effects multiple projectiles with a single casting. It effects projectiles just like Hold Person is a spell that effects targets. Because only effecting one per cast is not a limit.

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:55 pm

So, you CAN use Abundant Ammunition to turn Magic Weapon into (shorter duration) Greater Magic Weapon, then. Good to know. Dumbasses, the lot of you.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:02 pm

I'm going to agree with DMReckless that it definitely goes against RAW and it probably goes against RAI.
With that said, it's not like it's overpowered or anything. Just let it happen.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:26 pm

The fact that the direct object is plural is a necessary consequence of English grammar. When speaking in reference to a generality, to a recurring behavior, or in several other situations actually, the object is always in the plural.

For instance, "Wrathzog eats babies." Despite the fact that I do not mean to say that Wrathzog eats more than one baby at a given sitting - in fact, one baby can usually last two or even three meals - the word takes on the plural form. "Wrathzog eats baby," grates on your ears.

Likewise, there are sentences like, "This spell only affects humanoids." Like, oh, "Charm person only effects humanoids." That does not mean that it only affects multiples.

God damn.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:41 pm

DMReckless wrote:My point is exactly this:

Named Bullet is NOT "a spell that affects projectiles, like Align Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon" and therefore the Abundant Ammunition has absolutely no effect on anything enhanced by Named Bullet, just like it would have 0 effect on anything enhanced by (normal) Magic Weapon. It's that fucking simple, and the intentional obtuseness here is getting goddamn annoying.

You realize I was quoting exactly what you wrote, right?

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:48 pm

Only, Pathfinder has many different spells that affect projectiles exactly like greater magic weapon and align weapon. Some examples are keen edge and versatile weapon. They include the same exact phrasing of "up to 50 projectiles which must be in the same container" It is my belief that the Abundant Ammunition spell is intended specifically for these type of spells, based on the fact that the Abundant Ammunition spell specifically calls out "affects projectiles like..."

It is my contention that the wording of the target and duration entries of Named Bullet prohibit its combination with Abundant Ammunition, just as it would for Venomous Bolt. Magic Weapon's target would be excluded from the clause in Abundant Ammunition, but not in the world these folks play in. Unlimited Named Venomous Bullets for the win!

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:11 pm

And it is also your contention that Charm Person is not a "spell that affects humanoids"?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:21 pm

On a lighter note, Paizo's new book Ultimate Equipment came out with a brand, spankin' new item for monks to totally suck with!

It's a body wrap that costs 1.5x as much as a magic weapon, and it allows the monk to enhance one (1) attack per round for each iterative attack he has (e.g. 1 attack at BAB +0, 2 attacks at BAB +6, 3 attacks at BAB +11, etc.).

Because as we all know, if monks were able to have an enhancement bonus to all of their unarmed attacks in a flurry for the cost of a normal magic weapon, the world would asplode.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:43 pm

Just so I understand what this drama is about, can anyone explain how exactly named bullet is even supposed to work?

When used against the selected creature, (...) is unaffected by concealment (...)
When the target hits the selected creature, you must overcome that creature’s spell resistance, or this spell has no effect.

Does that mean that if you hit but fail the spell resistance check you'd need to roll for miss chance as a sort of quantum state? Guess they meant, has no further effect.

But even then,
1) the spell ignores miss chance (well you probably have seeking on your ranged attack ignoring it anyway)
2) gives you a touch attack if you are within 30 feet (but you can't use deadly aim on touch attacks so you probably don't actually want this)
3) any hit threatens (actually quite nice, as long as your target isn't crit immune)
4) 1*clvl bonus damage (for which you have to track if it was a regular crit or one because of the spell to see if it multiplies or not)

With the drawbacks of having to know the name or (sub)type of your enemy, and being a 4th level spell.

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:59 pm

Kaelik wrote:And it is also your contention that Charm Person is not a "spell that affects humanoids"?

Nope. Is it your contention that the target of NB is "one projectile"? See, I can be idiotic too.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:35 pm

DMReckless wrote:So, you CAN use Abundant Ammunition to turn Magic Weapon into (shorter duration) Greater Magic Weapon, then. Good to know. Dumbasses, the lot of you.

Of course you can. To the extent that you give a single fuck about that combo (considering you can get the same effect faster and cheaper by casting Magic Weapon on the bow), that would totally work.

Abundant Ammunition is a crap spell. But literally the only thing it does is allow you to use whatever your enhanced ammunition is each round for the duration of the spell. Why it is causing your brain to break is completely beyond me.

Learn to grammar. English plurals can involve singulars. Seriously: the anser to how many projectiles you have can be one. Now shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing yourself.

-Username17

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:44 pm

hogarth wrote:On a lighter note, Paizo's new book Ultimate Equipment came out with a brand, spankin' new item for monks to totally suck with!

It's a body wrap that costs 1.5x as much as a magic weapon, and it allows the monk to enhance one (1) attack per round for each iterative attack he has (e.g. 1 attack at BAB +0, 2 attacks at BAB +6, 3 attacks at BAB +11, etc.).

Because as we all know, if monks were able to have an enhancement bonus to all of their unarmed attacks in a flurry for the cost of a normal magic weapon, the world would asplode.

Have to love this reply on the paizo forums about how much the body wrap sucks :

The devs have stated that any fixes to monk will not be "stealth fix via items"

So yeah, any fixes to the magic item problems of the monk won't be through stealth fixes via items.

- Edit: Have to say the the item is a nice power creep for animal companions though, since you can combine it with amulet of mighty fists. (well only if you spend a lot of money on them I guess)

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:45 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Abundant Ammunition is a crap spell. But literally the only thing it does is allow you to use whatever your enhanced ammunition is each round for the duration of the spell. Why it is causing your brain to break is completely beyond me.

I wouldn't say that. At higher levels when you're busting out more than 50 arrows in a workday (totally possible; the cleric archer I posited can throw out 5 arrows in a round by level 9 with iterative attack + haste boots/spell + rapid shot + manyshot) it saves you a 4th level spell slot in exchange for a 1st level one if you're doing something crazy like GMW Defending Longbow + GMW arrows. Of course most groups do a one or two-encounter workday anyway so c'est la vie.

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:55 pm

Hey Frank, fuck you.

Here's the spells it would work with:
Align Weapon
Flame Arrow
Keen Edge
Greater Magic Weapon
Versatile Weapon
Daybreak Arrow
Unerring Weapon

Here's the spells it wouldn't
Bless Weapon
Magic Weapon (Smart Money says just enhance the bow anyway)
Venomous Bolt
Weapon of Awe (Again, apply to bow instead)
Ki Arrow
Named Bullet
Greater Named Bullet

The only fucking spell you can make your argument with is Divine Arrow, which actually targets "one projectile". Even then, all it would do is replace the one fucking projectile the enhancement was on(repeatedly), not give the other 49 fucking arrows in your quiver the effects of Divine Arrow as some dickshits here are saying.

Add to that the fact that the duration for Named Bullet includes a discharge phrase and the fucking spell discharges, even for the arrow/bullet/whateverthefuck the Abundant Ammo spell recreates, the spell has been discharged and no longer has any fucking effect.

All the Abundant Ammunition Spell does is allow you to keep all your fucking arrows. The recreated ammunition doesn't disappear after the AA spell ends, so you still have 50 arrows enhanced with Greater Magic Weapon for the next X hours even after the AA spell is done. Because the GMW has a duration of CL Hours. The NB spell fucking discharges, how hard is that for you to get?

I'm not the one embarrassing himself here.

I doubt you remember, but I'm the guy here willing to admit when he's wrong and apologize for it.

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:04 pm

I should clarify. The spells I said it wouldn't work for, I mean wouldn't work as a multiplier in the way some dickhead above suggested. I would accept an argument from a player that said that it would replace the one arrow with the enhancement on it, with the exceptions of Venomous Bolt/Ki Arrow (instantaneous Duration) and NM chain (discharge phrase.)

EDIT: And in the case of the other spells, it would be more action efficient to just cast on the projectile weapon than the ammunition to begin with.

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Oops, no look, Divine Arrow also has a discharge phrase, so no go on that either.

EDIT: I guess this is the last post I will make on the subject, since I know I can't possibly get the people involved to agree with me, and it's starting to get redundant. Agree/Disagree, there is no way we are going to change each others' minds on this particular subject. I'm right, you're wrong. Fuck you.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:14 pm

You're basing your argument on a distinction that does not exist in the English language.

Stop it.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:14 pm

BANDOLIER PRICE 5 SP
WEIGHT —
This leather belt is worn over one shoulder and runs diagonally across the chest and back. It has small loops or pouches for holding eight objects the size of a flask or small dagger. You can use the “retrieve a stored item” action to take an item from a bandolier. You can wear up to two bandoliers at the same time (any more than this and they get in each other’s way and restrict your movement).

So I understand you can't allow people to get flasks as a free action since then you might get the dreaded flask rogues in pf again, but what is this item supposed to actually do?

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:21 pm

ishy wrote:
BANDOLIER PRICE 5 SP
WEIGHT —
This leather belt is worn over one shoulder and runs diagonally across the chest and back. It has small loops or pouches for holding eight objects the size of a flask or small dagger. You can use the “retrieve a stored item” action to take an item from a bandolier. You can wear up to two bandoliers at the same time (any more than this and they get in each other’s way and restrict your movement).
So I understand you can't allow people to get flasks as a free action since then you might get the dreaded flask rogues in pf again, but what is this item supposed to actually do?

Nothing, really. It's just a different way to store your equipment. Retrieving a stored item is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:35 pm

DMReckless wrote:
ishy wrote:
BANDOLIER PRICE 5 SP
WEIGHT —
This leather belt is worn over one shoulder and runs diagonally across the chest and back. It has small loops or pouches for holding eight objects the size of a flask or small dagger. You can use the “retrieve a stored item” action to take an item from a bandolier. You can wear up to two bandoliers at the same time (any more than this and they get in each other’s way and restrict your movement).
So I understand you can't allow people to get flasks as a free action since then you might get the dreaded flask rogues in pf again, but what is this item supposed to actually do?
Nothing, really. It's just a different way to store your equipment. Retrieving a stored item is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Right. It's just a different visual than saying "I keep my stuff in my pockets". Personally, I don't really care what non-magical clothing a PC is wearing when I'm the GM, but I wouldn't doubt that there's someone out there who's lying awake at night wondering how many daggers you can fit in a bandolier.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:58 pm

Cheh. I'm sure that somewhere someone has figured out 'the odds' that an item stored in a bandolier will be hit and broken by an attack. 'Because they are so broken,' there has to be a chance you get alchemist fire all over yourself.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:19 pm

DMR wrote:The only fucking spell you can make your argument with is Divine Arrow, which actually targets "one projectile". Even then, all it would do is replace the one fucking projectile the enhancement was on(repeatedly), not give the other 49 fucking arrows in your quiver the effects of Divine Arrow as some dickshits here are saying.

First of all, absolutely no one is saying that Magic Weapon or Named Bullet would or could be reused more than once per turn, because it says they only get replicated once per turn. Stop being an asshole.

Secondly, do you speak English on a regular basis? Your argument is predicated on plurals working in a way that is totally alien to the way English treats numbers. Or has ever treated numbers as far as I know. I just talked about this to my wife, who is an actual University English teacher, and you are so full of shit that if I beat the shit out of you there would be nothing left. In English, "a projectile" is always a subset of "projectiles". An indeterminate number is always plural, and an indeterminate number can always include "one". Always.

Basically, the conversation we are having is this:

DMR: How many hamburgers would you like?
Lago: Just one please.
DMR: You can't choose one, dipshit! I asked how many hamburgers you wanted, so you have to choose two or more!
Absolutely all native English speakers: English doesn't work that way.

-Username17