Why did they scrap Orcus?

[Voss]

Am I? When I buy a game from someone, I want a complete and functioning thing. I don't give a flying fuck about the stuff the designers do at home to make the game functional- I want a complete and coherent set of rules. That doesn't seem like a lot to ask in exchange for money.

It is particularly true with a new game system. It is cute to have someone say ' just pick whichever method you know works best,' but that is the kind of shit you throw in optional supplements years down the line. When starting people off with a (theoretically) new system they _won't_ know what works best.

The thrust of this entire thread, even from the dedicated playtesters and the fucking publisher has been 'well, it is awesome because you can just make shit up,' and more than once people have suggested just tossing the basic assumptions of the game in favor of something else. That isn't a thing that is worth money.

[John Magnum]

Even GURPS gives you more guidance than that.

[MGuy]

I think Voss is overstating it. I don't "feel" that what has been described here is inability of the authors to decide on what they wanted to do. I "feel" that their intent was to specifically provide a bunch of house rules they liked, make some rules that explicitly tell you to do a number of minor things people implicitly do (or don't do) and expect to make money from it. I think they should have gone gung ho like pathfinder did and parade their house rules as "the" solution to all of 4th edition's problems.

[Wrathzog]

Am I? When I buy a game from someone, I want a complete and functioning thing. I don't give a flying fuck about the stuff the designers do at home to make the game functional- I want a complete and coherent set of rules.

Yes, you are. It turns out that in this situation, we not only have a complete and functioning game, we have more stuff than we need. You are complaining about getting a blueray player that comes with more than just an HDMI output and also gives out blowjobs.
If it bothers you that much, pretend that only Option A exists; deal with it.

[Voss]

*Blinks*

You are the only person I've seen in this entire thread, including the guy publishing it, to suggest that 13th Age is a complete and functioning game. So that is really a surprise to me.

[Wrathzog]

To Clarify: The concept of Completeness is only going to pertain as far as those rules that have multiple options because that's what we happen to be talking about. The completeness of the rest of the game (rather, the parts wherein there are no options/houserules presented) is actually completely irrelevant for this conversation.

-e-
Also, you would totally complain about the blowjob blueray player. Admit it.

[Voss]

True enough. I wouldn't trust a blueray player not to mangle my cock. Probably while playing a prerecord message from fanboys talking about how awesome the picture fidelty is. Or whatever blueray is supposedly good at.

I can't say the completeness of the game is irrelvant though. It is rather the point. But even if it isn't, having notes scrawled in margins of the rules, with 'here's how Rob does it, and this is how Heinsoo does it, pick something' doesn't really help the game. It just makes it more of a mess.

[Username17]

A different mathematical basis for combat actions necessarily implies different values and balance points for abilities and different play experiences. If the designers of the game are explicitly using different metrics, I don't see how it's even possible for the results to be anything other than a catastrophe. Some of the abilities are written by one author and some of the abilities are written by another, and they are explicitly playing different games and have no intention of rectifying those differences at any point.

Champions and GURPS laid down basic assumptions and then went into a fair amount of detail as to what would happen if you changed core assumptions about the system. That's an interesting way to do things, and I can see the logic in it. This "we do radically different stuff with the core mechanics and write crap without a lot of care as to how that might interact with the mechanics that the other guy is using, and then we have the playtesters mix-n-match on the fly so that none of the playtesters is actually playing the game that either one of us is playing or writing mechanics for!" thing is just fucking stupid.

You make a game, you make it work. Then you offer ways to change it in various ways to make it work in different ways. You do not start with a heterogeneous pile of mechanics and ask every playtester to grab elements that appeal to them visually and hope that they randomly selected fragments that happen to work together. That isn't design: that's evolution. And evolution takes millions of years and countless generations of horrible failure before it actually gets off the ground.

-Username17

[chaosfang]

You make a game, you make it work. Then you offer ways to change it in various ways to make it work in different ways. You do not start with a heterogeneous pile of mechanics and ask every playtester to grab elements that appeal to them visually and hope that they randomly selected fragments that happen to work together. That isn't design: that's evolution. And evolution takes millions of years and countless generations of horrible failure before it actually gets off the ground.

-Username17

Just to note: if playtests and reviews are to be believed, 13th Age *does* work, as is, and THEN it provides various alternatives in tackling particular items. Like how some groups would prefer rolling lots of dice (default option, 1[W]/level), and how other groups prefer rolling less dice (alternate options, turn most of the dice into static average). In fact, reviewing what they did with both Escalation Dice 1.0 and 2.0, the base mechanics of the entire system is pretty much done already, with most of the work going into making new powers, and cleaning up here and there.

I won't speak on behalf of others, but just to inform you guys: even from concept alone (and using 4E powers and publicly revealed info), 13th Age is already a BIG hit with my group, and will certainly be purchasing it as soon as I can afford it.

[ EDIT: In comparison, the second playtest of D&D Next has completely revised a lot of the mechanics (if Mike Mearl is to be believed). ]

[Korwin]

if Mike Mearl is to be believed

Ha, at this point I wouldnt belive him if he told me the grass is green without checking first.

[Voss]

I'd believe him on that sort of claim, though. Coming up with a concept, doing a half-assed sketch of the design work, abandoning it and doing something else has been his modus operandi since Iron Heroes.

Though to be completely honest, the first playtest didn't have a lot of mechanics. But a good chunk of what they did have desperately needed to be revised. Though sadly enough they took at least some of that off in a direction contrary to all sense and reason.


@chaosfang- so 13th Age has a lot of 4e style power lists?

[Username17]

Just to note: if playtests and reviews are to be believed, 13th Age *does* work, as is, and THEN it provides various alternatives in tackling particular items.

I'm calling shenanigans on that concept. What we have is "moving target game balance". The reviewers came out with glowingly positive reviews that depicted the game as shallow, stupid, irritating, and I think this needs to be underlined: really stupid. And the publisher assured us that all the stupid crap had absolutely nothing to do with what was actually printed. All that shit they were so pleased with? Not there apparently.

Which leaves us with the question: what the fuck is there? Those assholes told us they had the tools to play "Turbo Dracula" and Ladyhawk, but the publisher assured us (after we pointed out that that shit was fucking retarded) that it really didn't and that was just people using Rule Zero to fill the game up with low slapstick and ricockulous Mary Sue parody puff pieces. You said that the game works great as long as you fill it up with 4e powers.

But get this: I fucking hate 4e Powers. Those things are the worst things to ever happen to role playing. They are simultaneously too fiddly to keep track of while playing a game, too small to be worth talking about, too abstracted to coherently describe, and too straightforward to present an interesting tactical challenge. You couldn't make a worse system of power management if that was your actual goal.

So if you're saying that 13th Age works when you slot 4e powers into it: I'm already super uninterested. Because no game should accept the insertion of 4e powers without groaning under the strain. Everything about them, from cost to description to effect is an unholy abomination that should be stricken from the records of Dungeons & Dragons lore.

And even if we take you at your word, that it's compatible enough with 4e to accept 4e powers and basically 4e-like enough to please a table full of 4rries, you still haven't said a single thing about why 4rries would want to play it instead of actual 4e. What does it do that is different and better from the 4e that 4vengers already own?

-Username17

[MGuy]

What it does different is already described. Here I'll quote him and myself:

What I meant to convey about 13th Age was that the game does well when you justify why your character does lightning/thunder damage with a weapon strike. Background, icon relationship, and unique feature rules come into play to add elements to the setting that spawn adventure hooks, and affect what you roll on in certain situations. Here's one way you could handle this:

I'll say that my character does thunder/lightning damage when he hits with any weapon because of my Unique Feature that I am the heir to a line of northern barbarian kings that was blessed by Thor with hereditary lightning/thunder strike powers.

I asked Rob and he replied that 13th Age isn't being designed to fix problems in other games, so if there's something that's different in 13th Age, it's not because he and Jonathan think that mechanic is broken -- they just used a different approach.

In short, the game provides options for the group. Not "here's what I want, but I can't stop you from houseruling", just "here's how Rob handles stuff, here's how Heinsoo handles the same stuff in his own way; feel free to pick which method suits your game style best, or maybe just use what you know works".

I "feel" that their intent was to specifically provide a bunch of house rules they liked, make some rules that explicitly tell you to do a number of minor things people implicitly do (or don't do) and expect to make money from it. I think they should have gone gung ho like pathfinder did and parade their house rules as "the" solution to all of 4th edition's problems.

[Voss]

I... can't actually tell if you are trying to agree with Frank or arguing against him. Your randomly selected quotes read as: 'take powers, swap [damage type] for lightning; make shit up(and not badmouth 4e for whatever reason); houserules; feelings.

None of which addresses what the ruleset does differently, because make shit up and randomly change shit for flavor is always an option in everything.

Now maybe your point is that 'what 13th Age does different' is 'nothing,' but that isn't the only meaning I can pull from your copypasta.

[MGuy]

I'm agreeing with him. Notice my last quote. The rest of the quotes were selected specifically because they show that the ruleset is just "make shit up or don't" and "here's some stuff we made up so you can use it or not".

[erik]

if Mike Mearl is to be believed

Ha, at this point I wouldnt belive him if he told me the grass is green without checking first.

Hah, I wouldn't believe anyone saying that after this summer.

[Maxus]

if Mike Mearl is to be believed

Ha, at this point I wouldnt belive him if he told me the grass is green without checking first.

Hah, I wouldn't believe anyone saying that after this summer.

[off-topic] Really? The grass is green right here.

I'm on the Gulf Coast. The reason the rest of the country is in a drought is because we're hogging all the rain. 46 inches so far this year. And we're having near-daily thunderstorms right now.

[/off-topic]

[chaosfang]

so 13th Age has a lot of 4e style power lists?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xvu ... mh9Is/edit

(among several other documents that present character sheets for a variety of classes)

I'd say yes, it visibly has D&D 4E style power lists, at least for the spellcaster class. When looking at the non-casters though, they seem to be more trigger-based. This apparently addresses the "every martial power is [W] + effect" complaint on 4E by having everything more or less basic-attack related. Still, the presence of at-will, 1/battle (encounter), daily and even X/day, conditional triggering and rechargable spells, maneuvers and class features does effectively utilize the 4E paradigm -- and even expands upon it -- while organizing and reformatting it all to avoid the "sameness" of format in D&D 4E.

Just to note: if playtests and reviews are to be believed, 13th Age *does* work, as is, and THEN it provides various alternatives in tackling particular items.

I'm calling shenanigans on that concept. What we have is "moving target game balance". The reviewers came out with glowingly positive reviews that depicted the game as shallow, stupid, irritating, and I think this needs to be underlined: really stupid. And the publisher assured us that all the stupid crap had absolutely nothing to do with what was actually printed. All that shit they were so pleased with? Not there apparently.

Which leaves us with the question: what the fuck is there? Those assholes told us they had the tools to play "Turbo Dracula" and Ladyhawk, but the publisher assured us (after we pointed out that that shit was fucking retarded) that it really didn't and that was just people using Rule Zero to fill the game up with low slapstick and ricockulous Mary Sue parody puff pieces. You said that the game works great as long as you fill it up with 4e powers.

But get this: I fucking hate 4e Powers. Those things are the worst things to ever happen to role playing. They are simultaneously too fiddly to keep track of while playing a game, too small to be worth talking about, too abstracted to coherently describe, and too straightforward to present an interesting tactical challenge. You couldn't make a worse system of power management if that was your actual goal.

So if you're saying that 13th Age works when you slot 4e powers into it: I'm already super uninterested. Because no game should accept the insertion of 4e powers without groaning under the strain. Everything about them, from cost to description to effect is an unholy abomination that should be stricken from the records of Dungeons & Dragons lore.

And even if we take you at your word, that it's compatible enough with 4e to accept 4e powers and basically 4e-like enough to please a table full of 4rries, you still haven't said a single thing about why 4rries would want to play it instead of actual 4e. What does it do that is different and better from the 4e that 4vengers already own?

-Username17

What does it do that 4E doesn't do better? Let's see... how about:
* not having to resort to 3.5E-style skill subsystem mastery in order to mechanically represent character skills
** further encouraging creativity with non-combat power options (particularly ability and skill checks) by changing the focus from "you're best doing this thing if you have points/training in this skill" to "you're best doing this thing if your background is applicable to this situation"
* providing by-the-rules alternatives to best fit the group's style of play, from the get-go (something 4E really should have had in the first place)
* streamlining of combat so that you can retain the complexity of tactical play, encourage improvisation AND run the whole thing MUCH faster, all at the same time
* providing some rules outside of combat that further support AND entice players into engaging in storytelling
* Rules allowing characters to have one class feature from other classes if their character story is much better fleshed out if it had that class feature.

13th Age does not require D&D 4E powers for it to work -- there are some playtest character sheets already out there that show characters with uniquely 13th Age powers -- but as 13th Age does follow the same Standard/Minor/Move format of D&D 4E, it is very easy to convert D&D 4E powers to 13th Age.

Not like it was that difficult to convert 4E powers to pre-4E format, given how 3.x had the Swift Action, and you already had X/day actions even before that.

Really, is it so hard to convert:
"Flexible Melee Attack
Triggering Roll: Any even roll
Effect: Add +2 to your AC until the end of your next turn."

to

"Standard Action
At-Will
STR vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + STR damage.
Effect: If your attack roll was naturally an even number, gain a +2 to your AC until the end of your next turn."

to

"Feature: Whenever you roll an even number on your attack roll, gain a +2 to your AC for a round."

?

I mean 3.x Cleave could easily be placed in 4E format:

"Free Action
Trigger: You reduce an enemy to 0 HP
Effect: Make a melee basic attack against a creature adjacent to the triggering enemy."

As for the "unrealistic" AEDU format of D&D 4E, the discussion on that in details would be better off in another thread, but just for you to know, the 13th Age Fighter does NOT have "unrealistic" fighter encounter/daily powers, just powers that are situational in activation and rely almost exclusively on basic attacks.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pDe ... 6nLic/edit

I'm not sure where I read it, but I also recall the 13th Age Fighter not being exclusively melee-only (unlike in 4E), so I wouldn't be surprised if the 13th Age Fighter had abilities that triggered off ranged basic attacks as well.

That said, I'm not really catching on with your gripe on the 4E power system that you saw as "too fiddly to keep track of while playing a game, too small to be worth talking about, too abstracted to coherently describe, and too straightforward to present an interesting tactical challenge." No one in our group had trouble keeping track of each others' powers (although conditions and effects yes that would be a problem [13th Age does seem to have reduced emphasis on this though]), even the least in-combat tactical powers tended to be quite the game-changer (especially with the dailies), there IS a fluff portion that provided coherent descriptions on what the power was supposed to look like in the world, and I'm not sure what sort of "tactical challenge" would you consider "interesting".

But I'd rather be discussing about 13th Age anyway, so no need to answer that last bit.

[Lago PARANOIA]

But get this: I fucking hate 4e Powers. Those things are the worst things to ever happen to role playing.

Fucking bullshit, Frank. As awful as 4E powers are, they're still better than Exalted charms.

[FatR]

As for the "unrealistic" AEDU format of D&D 4E, the discussion on that in details would be better off in another thread, but just for you to know, the 13th Age Fighter does NOT have "unrealistic" fighter encounter/daily powers, just powers that are situational in activation and rely almost exclusively on basic attacks.

You're making a fundamental mistake if you think that anyone here is bothered by lack of "realism" in our fighters. Some people on the Den don't want fighters to exist at all, because "swinging even a really big sword" is just not a power that can compete with "control of space-time" or "channeling power of God" outside of computer game confines, where creating blackholes to suck your enemies into totally can be much less damaging than hitting them with a really big sword. Other people think that the final duel from FF:Advent Children is a good starting point for high-level DnD fighters. Either way, hardly anyone likes fighters that rely exclusively on basic attacks, because that's boring.

People feel, though, that 4E fighter powers structure needlessly violates verissimilitude by making mundane maneuvers that logically have no business being a limited resource into encounter/daily powers. Well that, and it is just not really interesting or enjoyable mechanically, regardless of the previous problem.

[FatR]

Fucking bullshit, Frank. As awful as 4E powers are, they're still better than Exalted charms.

I disagree. Exalted charms are not fundamentally and irrepairably flawed like at-will/encounter/daily system. And some of them are actually cool. It is just that most standard assumptions of their existing implementations suck dicks.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I disagree. Exalted charms are not fundamentally and irrepairably flawed like at-will/encounter/daily system.

Yes, they are. There are some ancillary parts of the charm system I would examine and try to adapt like combos, but the basic setup and writeup of all of the charms suck donkey anus. Like, just crack open the Exalted 2E player's guide. As much as Exalted people like to snivel and crow that Exalted makes you sooooo awesome unlike other games' crummy VAH-tier spells, the basic Exalted charms are as lame and math-hammery as typical 4E powers. But at least 4E D&D powers have the decency not to mix up fluff and crunch in the descriptions in a confusing way.

The only consistent advantage Exalted charms have over 4E D&D charms is that the keyword system is actually pretty helpful. Of course there's also the problem that Exalted has tree prerequisites for charm. And Exalted charms have a lot shittier implementation aspects than that god-awful prerequisite bullshit.

And some of them are actually cool.

95% of non-SMA charms are barely disguised roleplay taxes like Tiger and Seahorse Dynasty or fiddly number bullshit like Solar Hero Form. That's pathetic.

[sabs]

Holy Fuck that dwarfforged sorceror is SO MUCH bullshit.

1) rename surge to recover. That makes it all new and different.
2) The sorceror feature is FUCKING TERRIBLE. Every round roll a d20, on a 12 or higher, your breath is recharged? really? I have to roll a die every fucking round to see if I get my breath spell back? fuck you
3) Gather power, oh joy another fucking random generated effect
4) what the fuck is wrong with your fucking daily powers.
Burning Hands
Close Quarters Spell, at-will
Targets 2 nearby enemies in a group OR all enemies engaged with you
+5 vs PD
Hit: 1d8 + 3 fire damage
Miss: 1 + any damage dice that roll an 8

Breath of the White Dragon
Daily, Close-Quarters Spell
Targets 1d2 nearby enemies
+5 vs PD
Hit: 2d6 + 3 cold damage
Miss: half damage

That @ will is BETTER than the faily. It's just flat out better.
The only time it's only marginally not better, is if there's only 1 guy next to the sorceror. Otherwise, its' /always/ better to use burning hands, over that fucking shitty Daily. And if there's only 1 .. you might as well use ray of light. It's almost as good, and you get to use it every round.

It does an extra 3damage on average omg spooge it's got to be a daily power. I hate the entire encounter/daily power setup. @wills, are actually kind of nice. But, the whole encounter/daily setup is complete crap.

[chaosfang]

1) rename surge to recover. That makes it all new and different.

To be fair though, the recovery is closer to D&D Next implementation of hit dice than 4E's Healing Surge mechanic

3) Gather power, oh joy another fucking random generated effect

Meh, the guy who made this probably liked his character random, because 13th Age *does* allow you to choose the class features you benefit from.

4) what the fuck is wrong with your fucking daily powers.
Burning Hands
Close Quarters Spell, at-will
Targets 2 nearby enemies in a group OR all enemies engaged with you
+5 vs PD
Hit: 1d8 + 3 fire damage
Miss: 1 + any damage dice that roll an 8

Breath of the White Dragon
Daily, Close-Quarters Spell
Targets 1d2 nearby enemies
+5 vs PD
Hit: 2d6 + 3 cold damage
Miss: half damage

That @ will is BETTER than the faily. It's just flat out better.
The only time it's only marginally not better, is if there's only 1 guy next to the sorceror. Otherwise, its' /always/ better to use burning hands, over that fucking shitty Daily. And if there's only 1 .. you might as well use ray of light. It's almost as good, and you get to use it every round.

It does an extra 3damage on average omg spooge it's got to be a daily power. I hate the entire encounter/daily power setup. @wills, are actually kind of nice. But, the whole encounter/daily setup is complete crap.

Meh, they've probably fixed it in the Escalation Edition versions; this is from the playtest 1 details after all.

[Mask_De_H]

Gather Power is one of those things you're stuck with, like Sneak Attack or the Cleric's Heal. And they didn't fix it for EE2 as far as I can tell. Don't know about EE3, but I do know they gave up on balancing the Monk and shunted it to their first splat.