Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[ishy]

If you want to know the average CMD of monsters here you go:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... tMFE#gid=3

(Note: I didn't create this and can't vouch for its accuracy)

[Username17]

The core reality is that the attacker in Pathfinder is adding BAB + Dex OR Str and the Defender is adding BAB + Dex AND Str AND Deflection and shit. At very low levels, you have like a 50/50 shot. At very high levels, it just doesn't fucking work at all, because everyone has large bonuses in all categories and the fact that the defender is adding more categories together means you can go fuck yourself. And that's before we throw in the fact that the special combat maneuvers all get -5 on iterative attacks in Pathfinder.

Also: in Pathfailure, the feat bonuses are worse. Improved Trip not only was split into two feats, but once you have it you only get to make an attack of opportunity against your target (requiring you to get Combat Reflexes and have a Dex bonus if you want to get any real mileage out of it because standing up provokes an AoO anyway and you only get one without Combat Reflexes and a Dex Bonus).

The Tripstar is just worse in Pathfinder. By a lot. Anyone who tells you otherwise is insane.

-Username17

[ishy]

The tripstar is mostly worse in pathfinder because they made more monsters immune to trip.

Lets grab that chart I linked and calculate a for a lvl fighter and level 12 challenge rating (why 12? I believe I heard most adventure paths end at level 12)

Highest CMD for level 12 is 45 (ignoring any fuck you I'm immune)
The fighter will start with 18 str at level 1 (+1 at level 4, +1 at level 8, +6 strength item) = 26 str (+8 bonus)
12 Bab + 8 strength +2 weapon training + 4 feats (both feats) +2 (permanent enlarge person) +1 weapon focus +3 weapon = + 32

That would mean you need to roll a 13+ to trip the monster with the highest CMD at your level (a 3 for average).
Unless you can get some penalties up on your opponent / additional buffs (like heroism or something)

- Edit: this is assuming vs unbuffed enemies who aren't wearing gear, so if they do have either of those the numbers will be higher.

[Juton]

The tripstar is mostly worse in pathfinder because they made more monsters immune to trip.

Lets grab that chart I linked and calculate a for a lvl fighter and level 12 challenge rating (why 12? I believe I heard most adventure paths end at level 12)

Highest CMD for level 12 is 45 (ignoring any fuck you I'm immune)
The fighter will start with 18 str at level 1 (+1 at level 4, +1 at level 8, +6 strength item) = 26 str (+8 bonus)
12 Bab + 8 strength +2 weapon training + 4 feats (both feats) +2 (permanent enlarge person) +1 weapon focus +3 weapon = + 32

That would mean you need to roll a 13+ to trip the monster with the highest CMD at your level (a 3 for average).
Unless you can get some penalties up on your opponent / additional buffs (like heroism or something)

- Edit: this is assuming vs unbuffed enemies who aren't wearing gear, so if they do have either of those the numbers will be higher.

You can get the Fighters attack bonus higher. A fighter will probably take greater weapon focus since their still isn't much for a fighter type to really do. If he is a fighter then he is going to want the gloves of dueling which give him another +2 to hit. There is a feat called Fury's Fall that lets you also add your dex on trip attempts, let's assume that's another +2. So that's a total of five more points to 37. He goes from a 45% success rate to a 65% success rate.

There are also a few fighter archetypes you can take if you really want to optimize being a tripstar, you can probably get his attack bonus into the low 40s if you wanted.

From here the important question is what was the 3.5 fighter's chance of successfully at tripping the most hard to trip CR 12?

[rasmuswagner]

How did you compute Monk's AC?
Remember they add Wis to CMD twice.
"When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. "
Remember you add anything that enhances AC but armor/NA bonuses. So Raw you add it twice to CMD (once as AC bonus and second because it adds directly to CMD).
Most people assume PF didn't mean what they wrote. I mean why did they write that? If you read the CMD rules it gets added, but they made it added again.

When they write about adding a bonus to attack rolls and critconfirm or to AC and CMD, it's not because the bonus is doubled, it's because they're idiots and because they think the readers are idiots (the laast one they've admitted on the forums).

[Username17]

From here the important question is what was the 3.5 fighter's chance of successfully at tripping the most hard to trip CR 12?

The most hard to trip enemy is of course immune to tripping. The Elder Black Pudding is simply radially symmetrical and has no available prone condition to give it, the Purple Worm is Gargantuan and thus two sizes larger than you and you can't even make a trip attempt against it. In Pathfinder, the CR 12 Clockwork Leviathan has a CMD of 45 (presumably the high number noted in that game), but it also just flat says "Can't be Tripped" - a thing that gets handed out like candy in Pathfailure. The actual hardest to trip monster you can potentially trip at CR 12 is I think the Nightskitter, which has a CMD of 50 against trips and also is surrounded by a Magic Circle Against Good, Deeper Darkness, and Energy Draining Webs that Entangle you. So unless you're Evil, have Deathward and Freedom of Movement up, and See In Darkness, its effective CMD is way higher than that. And that's before the Nightskitter's own equipment (Int 16 and standard treasure for a CR 12) or buff spells (it can cast haste and invisibility on top of the stuff I already mentioned that is always on).

Anyway, back to the 3.5 experience. First of all: a 3.5 Trip Fighter's tripping enthusiasm doesn't even need to be compared on a one for one basis to his Pathfinder equivalent's. Because while the Pathfinder Tripper basically has to use his first attack to trip, the 3.5 Fighter can use his second iterative attack, because he uses a tough attack followed up by a stat check - so being -10 on a third trip attempt doesn't mean he auto-fails, it still probably means he succeeds at the touch attack and then the opposed trip roll is unaffected. Beyond that, the 3.5 Tripstar has Elusive Target and/or Defensive Throw, meaning that when they get missed in combat, they get bonus trip attempts. A 3.5 Tripstar can easily be tripping effectively 5 or more times as often as his Pathfinder equivalent.

But sure, the 3.5 Tripper gets a Base Strength of 17, a +6 Strength Item, Improved Trip, a Permanent Enlarge Person, and their level up stat bonuses like the Pathfinder Fighter, and then they take Armbands of Might and Planar Touchstone: Sunken City because they are a 3.5 Character. And of course they only take 4 levels of Fighter and spend the other 8 levels on some combination of Barbarian and Prestige Classes, because they are a 3.5 character and why the fuck not?

Now I believe the hardest monster to knock down that can be tripped at all in 3.5 at CR is the Sun Giant (Trip bonus +21), and we're up to a +17 before we even decide what to do with the other 8 class levels. We could take Exotic Weapon Master for a level to get +2 Trip and a level of Barbarian to rage up for another +2. That gives 6 more levels to play with and a 52.25% chance of tripping the Sun Giant per attempt, with as noted several attempts allowed per turn instead of only 1.

-Username17

[hogarth]

Now I believe the hardest monster to knock down that can be tripped at all in 3.5 at CR is the Sun Giant (Trip bonus +21),

I'm sure there are a number of Huge creatures that are harder to trip that a level 10 fighter would face. Off the top of my head, a triceratops would have a +22 modifier (+10 Str, +4 quadruped, +8 size).

[virgil]

The main methods I know for tripping at level 12 are below.

20PB Human Fighter (Polemaster Archetype) 8, Alchemist 4 = +11 BAB, +2 Magic Wpn, +2 Heroism, +4 Improved & Great Trip, +2 (Greater) Weapon Focus, +6 Str, +2 Str belt, +2 mutagen, +3 Dex (Furious Fall), +1 Weapon Training = +35

20PB Human Barbarian 12 (+Str Surge) = +12 BaB, +7 Str, +3 Rage, +4 Improved & Great Trip, +2 Magic Wpn, +2 Str belt = +30 (+12 once per rage)

Charge can give you a +2. Anyone casting a buff will increase this, especially enlarge person. None of them use much in the way of buffs and still have spare feats to put towards something; though putting much more toward tripping and only tripping is likely to result in losing out on the ability to do anything else but trip.

Another question is the worthiness of grappling. Once you get to level 9, if you can reliably grapple, you can get them hogtied and helpless by the second round. The question is whether you can actually reliably grapple.

[Username17]

I know of one way to get a +33 trip in Pathfinder, or so.

If you can also swing some negative energy protection, some see in darkness, and Freedom of Movement, that'll let you trip a Nightskitter on a 19+. With your first attack. Subsequent attacks are on a natural 20 only (assuming that your DM rules that CMB rolls are enough like an attack roll that they succeed on a natural 20).

I'm sure there are a number of Huge creatures that are harder to trip that a level 10 fighter would face.

The question was about CR 12 creatures. There are of course an ass tonne of other monsters that are available which are harder to trip. As noted, for example, there are a lot of monsters you can't trip at all.

-Username17

[Juton]

Like I mentioned you can get a PF Fighter's CMB into the low forties, even with a 20 pt buy.

At level 12 on trip attempts you can get a +42.

9 Strength (18 Starting + 3 inherent, +6 item)
1 Size (perm enlarge person)
12 BAB
5 Weapon Training (3 Weapon Master, 2 Gloves of Duelling)
3 Magic Weapon
2 Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus
4 Improved and Greater trip
5 Dexterity (Fell Fall feat, 16 Starting, +4 item, dual talent racial)
1 Haste (Boots of Speed)

The fighter can make all his magic gear himself if he wants to spend the feats, he needs to pay for the permanent enlarge person though.

His full attack routine would be +42, +42, +37, +32. Versus a Nightskitter he has a 93.76% of tripping. A 3.5 Fighter has a 93.69% of tripping a Sun Giant with 4 attacks.

[hogarth]

I'm sure there are a number of Huge creatures that are harder to trip that a level 10 fighter would face.

The question was about CR 12 creatures.

Like a 28 HD triceratops? Or a 20 HD half-dragon triceratops?

[violence in the media]

Something has been bothering me about this discussion. Here's the text for CMB and CMD from the d20pfsrd.com site:

Combat Maneuver Bonus
Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Bonus (or CMB) that represents its skill at performing combat maneuvers. A creature's CMB is determined using the following formula:

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Special Size Modifier
Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB. The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows:

Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.

Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.

Performing a Combat Maneuver

When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

Combat Maneuver Defense
Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers

Special Size Modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows:

Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.

Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers.

Miscellaneous Modifiers
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

Determine Success
If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure.

CMB seems to be ONLY BAB + Str Mod + Size Mod. None of the other shit that adds into your normal attack roll goes into that unless it modifies one of those things. They specify replacing your regular attack bonus with your CMB when trying one of these maneuvers. Unlike CMD, which has provisions for special miscellaneous modifiers to increase it, CMB doesn't allow for anything else.

Now, this is Pathfailure, so maybe they intended it differently or "clarified" it elsewhere, but I don't think you get to add stuff like flanking, morale bonuses to attack, weapon enhancements or anything like that.

[hogarth]

From your quote:

"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."

I'm not going to claim that that paragraph is the epitome of clarity, but it states that you add other bonuses.

[violence in the media]

Well, that's what I get for stopping once I finished reading the sentence before that. My mistake.

Why put that in a paragraph when you're going to make a big special callout for the miscellaneous bonuses under CMD though?

[Juton]

Why put that in a paragraph when you're going to make a big special callout for the miscellaneous bonuses under CMD though?

No matter what we bicker about on this thread, I think it's safe to say that no one here thinks Pathfinder was written well.

[hogarth]

Well, that's what I get for stopping once I finished reading the sentence before that. My mistake.

Why put that in a paragraph when you're going to make a big special callout for the miscellaneous bonuses under CMD though?

Beats me. Also note that it says that you're supposed to add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus and then add any bonuses -- depending on how you interpret "normal attack bonus" and "add any bonuses", you could end up double- or even triple-counting some bonuses!

[CatharzGodfoot]

Something has been bothering me about this discussion. Here's the text for CMB and CMD from the d20pfsrd.com site:

Combat Maneuver Bonus
Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Bonus (or CMB) that represents its skill at performing combat maneuvers. A creature's CMB is determined using the following formula:

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Special Size Modifier
Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB. The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows:

Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.

Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.

Performing a Combat Maneuver

When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

Combat Maneuver Defense
Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers

Special Size Modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows:

Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.

Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers.

Miscellaneous Modifiers
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

Determine Success
If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure.

CMB seems to be ONLY BAB + Str Mod + Size Mod. None of the other shit that adds into your normal attack roll goes into that unless it modifies one of those things. They specify replacing your regular attack bonus with your CMB when trying one of these maneuvers. Unlike CMD, which has provisions for special miscellaneous modifiers to increase it, CMB doesn't allow for anything else.

Now, this is Pathfailure, so maybe they intended it differently or "clarified" it elsewhere, but I don't think you get to add stuff like flanking, morale bonuses to attack, weapon enhancements or anything like that.

Right in the text you quoted:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

[hogarth]

You can't say that Paizo isn't trying a bunch of different business ideas: now they're teaming up with Steve Jackson Games for Pathfinder Muchkin!

http://www.worldofmunchkin.com/pathfinder/

[OgreBattle]

You can't say that Paizo isn't trying a bunch of different business ideas: now they're teaming up with Steve Jackson Games for Pathfinder Muchkin!

http://www.worldofmunchkin.com/pathfinder/

I hope 'Denner' is a card in there


Why does CM need to exist though, what's wrong with just using BAB.

[Prak]

"We're honored to be working with Paizo on Munchkin Pathfinder," said Andrew Hackard, Munchkin Brand Manager for Steve Jackson Games. "Pathfinder is a wonderfully rich world to play in."

Notice the complete lack of mention of any opinion about the game itself. I know that the world is really all that matters for a parody, but still..

[Voss]

Why does CM need to exist though, what's wrong with just using BAB.

Because then it wouldn't have been 'backwards compatible,' as 3.5 didn't use BAB for trip/grapple/etc.
And yes, the irony is delicious.

[hogarth]

Why does CM need to exist though, what's wrong with just using BAB.

I'm not sure what you mean; CMB is quite similar to BAB + attack bonuses. Are you suggesting that size should give you a penalty to grappling instead of a bonus?

[Duke Flauros]

I'm not sure what you mean; CMB is quite similar to BAB + attack bonuses. Are you suggesting that size should give you a penalty to grappling instead of a bonus?

Pathfinder:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers + 1d20 = Combat Maneuver Bonus
10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers = Combat Maneuver Defense

3.5:
Base attack bonus + Strength or Dexterity modifier (depending on circumstances) + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers +1d20 = Combat Maneuver Opposed Check

The difference isn't huge- but it's enough to stop backwards compatibility.

[TOZ]

Paizo announced Mythic rules for next GenCon. Mythic levels will not be earned by XP, they will be earned by achievements, and be added on top of current levels like templates, granting extra abilities instead of increased numbers.

I imagine it will be like 4E Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Paizo announced Mythic rules for next GenCon. Mythic levels will not be earned by XP, they will be earned by achievements, and be added on top of current levels like templates, granting extra abilities instead of increased numbers.

I imagine it will be like 4E Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies.

Actually, it sounds to me like combining the shitty parts of the 3E D&D prestige class system combined with the shitty parts (read: entirety) of the 4E D&D treasure acquisition system.